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Old November 5, 2009, 09:20 PM   #26
BobbyT
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I assume that you have an 03 FFL, in which case there is a very specific format and very specific information that BATF requires. It would be in your best interests to spend a few bucks and get the book. Brownell's has them. Lots cheaper than a lawyer.
I currently have 2 C&R pistols. All their information is recorded on a bound book template sheet.

The most C&R firearms I'll have in the near future is 4-5. That'll still fit on the same sheet, and I have several other blanks. I'm not buying a BOOK for a single sheet; a folder will do just fine.

If someone kicks in my door for keeping my completed C&R list in a folder with my C&R paperwork, original license, and copies, I'll laugh all the way to the bank.
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Old November 5, 2009, 09:27 PM   #27
BobbyT
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Here, this should settle it:

E. RECORDS REQUIRED – LICENSEES

(E1) What is a "bound book?"
A "bound book" is a permanently bound book or an orderly arrangement of loose-leaf pages which must be maintained on the business premises. The format must follow that prescribed in the regulations, and the pages must be numbered consecutively.
[27 CFR 478.121 and 478.125]

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#e1
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Old November 5, 2009, 10:34 PM   #28
Dabull
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Not trying to be argumentative, but is this passage specific to regular dealer licenses that are businesses, or general to all licenses including both business and C&R (non business)licenses? Because the bit you quoted says "on the business premises."
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Old November 6, 2009, 02:22 PM   #29
dogtown tom
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Dabull Not trying to be argumentative, but is this passage specific to regular dealer licenses that are businesses, or general to all licenses including both business and C&R (non business)licenses? Because the bit you quoted says "on the business premises."
The passage above is from the ATF "FAQ's"

It is applicable to ALL licensees.

The FAQ's are not the actual regulations, but an attempt to simplify the language in the actual regulations. It probably should read: "on the licensed premises" rather than "on the business premises".
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Old November 6, 2009, 04:22 PM   #30
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I suggest you go back and reread it and point out to me where it states that purchases made on a 4473 WITHOUT use of the 03 license are required to be placed in the bound book.
I have a better idea. Here is the law. You point out to me where it states you may EXCLUDE C&R acquisitions made on a 4473 from entry in your bound book.

Quote:
§ 478.125 Record of receipt and disposition.


(f) Firearms receipt and disposition by licensed collectors. Each licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics. The record required by this paragraph shall be maintained in bound form under the format prescribed below. The purchase or other acquisition of a curio or relic shall, except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, be recorded not later than the close of the next business day following the date of such purchase or other acquisition. The record shall show the date of receipt, the name and address or the name and license number of the person from whom received, the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), the model, serial number, type, and the caliber or gauge of the firearm curio or relic. The sale or other disposition of a curio or relic shall be recorded by the licensed collector not later than 7 days following the date of such transaction. When such disposition is made to a licensee, the commercial record of the transaction shall be retained, until the transaction is recorded, separate from other commercial documents maintained by the licensee, and be readily available for inspection. The record shall show the date of the sale or other disposition of each firearm curio or relic, the name and address of the person to whom the firearm curio or relic is transferred, or the name and license number of the person to whom transferred if such person is a licensee, and the date of birth of the transferee if other than a licensee. In addition, the licensee shall—

(1) Cause the transferee, if other than a licensee, to be identified in any manner customarily used in commercial transactions (e.g., a driver’s license), and note on the record the method used, and

(2) In the case of a transferee who isan alien legally in the United States and who is other than a licensee—

(i) Verify the identity of the transferee by examining an identification document (as defined in § 478.11),and

(ii) Cause the transferee to present documentation establishing that the transferee is a resident of the State (as defined in § 478.11) in which the licensee's business premises is located if the firearm curio or relic is other than a shotgun or rifle, and note on the record the documentation used or is a resident of any State and has resided in such State continuously for at least 90 days prior to the transfer of the firearm if the firearm curio or relic is a shotgun or rifle and shall note on the record the documentation used. Examples of acceptable documentation include utility bills or a lease agreement which show that the transferee has resided in the State continuously for at least 90 days prior to the transfer of the firearm curio or relic.

(3) The format required for the record of receipt and disposition of firearms by collectors is as follows: (See Table 5)


(g) Commercial records of firearms received.

When a commercial record is held by a licensed dealer or licensed collector showing the acquisition of a firearm or firearm curio or relic, and such record contains all acquisition information required by the bound record prescribed by paragraphs (e) and (f) of this section, the licensed dealer or licensed collector acquiring such firearm or curio or relic, may, for a period not exceeding 7 days following the date of such acquisition, delay making the required entry into such bound record: Provided, That the commercial record is, until such time as the required entry into the bound record is made, (1) maintained by the licensed dealer or licensed collector separate from other commercial documents maintained by such licensee, and (2) readily available for inspection on the licensed premises: Provided further, That when disposition is made of a firearm or firearm curio or relic not entered in the bound record under the provisions of this paragraph, the licensed dealer or licensed collector making such disposition shall enter all required acquisition information regarding the firearm or firearm curio or relic in the bound record at the time such transfer or disposition is made.
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Last edited by Hkmp5sd; November 6, 2009 at 04:30 PM.
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Old November 7, 2009, 02:06 AM   #31
gyvel
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I have a better idea. Here is the law. You point out to me where it states you may EXCLUDE C&R acquisitions made on a 4473 from entry in your bound book.
OK, several more phone calls to ATF and now we have no less than 3 field agents and an I.O. supervisor telling me that that "law" only pertains to those weapons you have obtained WITH your 03 C&R FFL. It was unanimous that any weapon you purchase on a 4473 is outside the purview of your license and you are NOT required to enter it in your A/D.

I would suggest you argue with them.

Just for the heck of it, though, next week I am going to contact Martinsburg and see what THEY have to say.

But, hey, if YOU want to enter them in YOUR book, by all means go right ahead.
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Old November 7, 2009, 09:51 AM   #32
Hkmp5sd
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I believe they told you that. I've been told many different things by ATF over the last 30 years. I was even an 01-FFL for several years. I do suggest that you get your answer in writting. They do tend to change their opinion frequently and without warning, especially field agents.

And like you said, my C&R acquisitions will go into my bound book. For some reason, I still cannot find where it says "record each receipt using collectors license" in the statute. Kind of dumb that a C&R firearm becomes "modern" when you buy it using a 4473, yet returns to being a C&R if you sell it, and its disposition has to be recorded in your bound book.

To quote Patrick Swayze in Roadhouse, "Opinions vary." End of argument.
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Old November 7, 2009, 11:36 PM   #33
dogtown tom
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gyvel Quote:
OK, several more phone calls to ATF and now we have no less than 3 field agents and an I.O. supervisor telling me that that "law" only pertains to those weapons you have obtained WITH your 03 C&R FFL. It was unanimous that any weapon you purchase on a 4473 is outside the purview of your license and you are NOT required to enter it in your A/D.

In almost every call I've made to ATF they don't give advice or an interpretation- they quote ATF regulations word for word.

NEVER. NEVER. NEVER, rely on verbal answers from ATF (or for that matter IRS, USPS or any .gov agency).

Time and time again, they are proven wrong. ATF is notorious for issuing conflicting opinions in WRITTEN format. An example of note is the legality of attaching a wooden stock/holster to certain Mauser, Luger & Browning/Inglis Hi Power pistols. In 1981 ATF's Technical Branch issued a ruling that reproduction stock/holsters were okay, several years later they issued another ruling that only original stock/holsters were okay to attach without violating the NFA.

You'll never be fined or do time for recording ALL & EVERY C&R eligible firearm in your C&R book. Why tweak the nose
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Old November 8, 2009, 12:48 AM   #34
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Here's one for ya. Let's say I sell one of my C&R guns that was purchased before I got my 03FFL. Obviously they are not in my bound book, but I have to record the disposition. So I have an entry with a disposition but no aquisition? Or do I enter it into the book as aquired from myself on the same day I dispose of it? I don't want to backdate the aquisition to when I originally bought it, plus I don't have the necessary details... Or do I just put a notation that the gun was aquired before I had a license?

(I doubt that I will ever sell anything)
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Old November 8, 2009, 04:04 AM   #35
gyvel
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In almost every call I've made to ATF they don't give advice or an interpretation- they quote ATF regulations word for word.

NEVER. NEVER. NEVER, rely on verbal answers from ATF (or for that matter IRS, USPS or any .gov agency).

Time and time again, they are proven wrong. ATF is notorious for issuing conflicting opinions in WRITTEN format. An example of note is the legality of attaching a wooden stock/holster to certain Mauser, Luger & Browning/Inglis Hi Power pistols. In 1981 ATF's Technical Branch issued a ruling that reproduction stock/holsters were okay, several years later they issued another ruling that only original stock/holsters were okay to attach without violating the NFA.
You know it. And that is why I am going to submit this to Martinsburg this coming week and get an answer IN WRITING.
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Old November 8, 2009, 04:06 AM   #36
BobbyT
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You only enter the transaction getting rid of it. You didn't have your 03 FFL when you got it, so you wouldn't have recorded the acquisition.
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Old November 8, 2009, 04:31 AM   #37
gyvel
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Kind of dumb that a C&R firearm becomes "modern" when you buy it using a 4473, yet returns to being a C&R if you sell it, and its disposition has to be recorded in your bound book.
Totally agree with you there, but, according to those ATF people I spoke to, the 4473 negates the "purpose" of the 03 license, and the "no special privileges and rights" clause comes into play, making you John Q. Public.

I might add that the I.O. supervisor stated that "..we wish you would enter them into your records, but, legally, you don't have to..." (That surprised me a little bit, on one hand, but, on the other hand, their attitude didn't.)

Also, the status of the gun does not change from C&R to "modern" per se; It's HOW you acquired the gun that determines whether or not you have to enter it, and, while virtually every other means of acquisition requires that you enter it, in this one instance, it does not (according to the 4 people I spoke to).

Again, they are saying that, if you did NOT use your license to acquire the firearm (and had to do it on a 4473), it is your private personal property and not an 03 acquisition and therefore need not go in the bound book. I assume this is the same principal that allows an 01 FFL to make a purchase on a 4473 and not have to enter it into his books.

At any rate, I am going to submit this whole mess to ATF this week and get something in writing. I will be very curious to see what they say.

Something only semi-related here, but there are a couple of guns on the C&R list that surprised me, and, had I not just accidentally come across them while looking for something else, I would have never known they were C&Rs. It would be very possible for an 03 to purchase them in a gun store on a 4473 with both parties thinking they were "modern" guns.

Last edited by gyvel; November 8, 2009 at 09:53 AM.
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Old November 8, 2009, 04:34 AM   #38
gyvel
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Here's one for ya. Let's say I sell one of my C&R guns that was purchased before I got my 03FFL. Obviously they are not in my bound book, but I have to record the disposition. So I have an entry with a disposition but no acquisition? Or do I enter it into the book as acquired from myself on the same day I dispose of it? I don't want to backdate the acquisition to when I originally bought it, plus I don't have the necessary details... Or do I just put a notation that the gun was acquired before I had a license?
I think it is sufficient to enter it as from "Personal Collection." If you want to state, as backup, that it's acquisition antedated your becoming an 03, I'm sure it wouldn't hurt their feelings.
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