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Old October 19, 2009, 07:26 PM   #1
Wagonman
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Oath Keepers

I came across this group while surfing and am intrigued with their stance. The leader seems to be a BTDT guy who writes for our sponsoring magazine.

This group highlights some of the recurring issues that we kick around here on a consistent basis. Are there any members on the forum that can share their experiences?

I am considering becoming a member.

http://www.oathkeepers.org/
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Old October 19, 2009, 10:52 PM   #2
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"Oath Keepers is a non-partisan association of currently serving military, reserves, National Guard, veterans, Peace Officers, and Fire Fighters who will fulfill the Oath we swore, with the support of like minded citizens..."

It the "like minded citizens" folks should pay more attention to. The group's a militia recruitment tool playing on the sentiments of those who serve and have served.

Got a clearance or think you'll need one? Work for an entity that might not appreciate their personnel being co opted by such a group? Like say, I don't know... the entities listed? Not exactly a militia type? Not too sure about the legality of deciding which orders to follow when, such as during war(s)? Cloudy on the Constitution, or at least the parts militias typically ignore, like who decides legality? I'd stear well clear of them.

Or perhaps I'm wrong.
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Old October 19, 2009, 11:13 PM   #3
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Any militia that bases it's doctrine completely outside the local population's control would seem to be less a civilian militia, and more a para-military organization. Civilian militias are small, organized units based on communities, not groups that recruit from a wide pool and follow command structures that answer to a founder, or individual not under the authority of the electorate. The sentiments expressed are for the most part admirable, but the formation of private armies and militias is a pretty weird take on the purpose of the constitution and the second amendment.
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Old October 19, 2009, 11:13 PM   #4
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Quote:
Not too sure about the legality of deciding which orders to follow when, such as during war(s)? Cloudy on the Constitution, or at least the parts militias typically ignore, like who decides legality?
In these cases, you have a big problem regardless of any associations with groups like this. If you don't know that an order you've been given is lawful, you had best do your damnedest to find out one way or another and not just go with the path of least resistance of following an order that violates an American citizen's rights.
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Old October 20, 2009, 12:31 AM   #5
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Just read some of their site. Some kooky stuff indeed, they appear to be another "militia" group which is in reality a unauthorized paramilitary group. I would not join them and would urge others not to either. As to following orders, all soldiers are taught Standards of Conduct regarding the Law of War and they are taught when an order is illegal or not.
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Old October 20, 2009, 04:59 AM   #6
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Being military, I've often thought long and hard on the subject of "lawful" orders. There are some that are clear and others that are not. Now I haven't delved into the depths of the UCMJ. But before the "obey the orders of the President and officers appointed over me", it says to support and defend the constitution. So wherein does that line cross? And at what point does it become unlawful, if the president and the officers are being unlawful according to my perception of the constitution?

When/if the time comes to make that choice, I'll just have to deal with the fallout of my decision. It's a tough thing. I hope it never comes to that. I'd say it will be tough for a lot of folks.
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Old October 20, 2009, 08:31 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wpcexpert
But before the "obey the orders of the President and officers appointed over me", it says to support and defend the constitution. So wherein does that line cross? And at what point does it become unlawful, if the president and the officers are being unlawful according to my perception of the constitution?
This is something that the militia/insurrection types fail to comprehend. The COTUS tells us that we elect those in authority over us. For instance COTUS tells us that the POTUS is the CINC of our military and that sounds pretty clear to me as a former military man. How these "oath keepers" square that with those 10 orders they will not obey as members of the military is beyond me.

However, what I read on here a lot is "Well yes he/she is elected and a constitutional leader but if I don't like what he/she does then I will take out my FA from the closet and revolt!" Rather than take political action to remove/pressure them.

When people tell me "I only have allegiance to the COTUS" I tell them, "Well obey the government that was elected and the COTUS ordains!" Of course, saying I answer only to a document is like saying I answer only to God which really means I answer to no one on earth. I think many are really saying that.

Your last sentence I quoted is why we must always be a nation of laws and not men even if we don't like the laws. Otherwise, we will be lawless and each man will do what is right in his own eyes.
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Last edited by Tennessee Gentleman; October 20, 2009 at 08:43 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old October 20, 2009, 11:06 AM   #8
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Reading the 10 things they would refuse to do it would seem to a no brainer.

Quote:
1. We will NOT obey orders to disarm the American people.

2. We will NOT obey orders to conduct warrantless searches of the American people

3. We will NOT obey orders to detain American citizens as “unlawful enemy combatants” or to subject them to military tribunal.

4. We will NOT obey orders to impose martial law or a “state of emergency” on a state.

5. We will NOT obey orders to invade and subjugate any state that asserts its sovereignty.

6. We will NOT obey any order to blockade American cities, thus turning them into giant concentration camps.

7. We will NOT obey any order to force American citizens into any form of detention camps under any pretext.

8. We will NOT obey orders to assist or support the use of any foreign troops on U.S. soil against the American people to “keep the peace” or to “maintain control."

9. We will NOT obey any orders to confiscate the property of the American people, including food and other essential supplies.

10.We will NOT obey any orders which infringe on the right of the people to free speech, to peaceably assemble, and to petition their government for a redress of grievances
It seems to be restating your oath of office.
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Old October 20, 2009, 11:47 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wagonman
Reading the 10 things they would refuse to do it would seem to a no brainer.
Aside from restating the obvious like "I will not shoot innocent unarmed people" what purpose do they serve? The most troubling part is who decides when these "orders" are illegal. Seems like they are borrowing trouble. No military we serve in will ever give those orders and if a state tries to secede? Well we took care of that in 1865.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wagonman
It seems to be restating your oath of office.
Why do you need to do that? Didn't you understand and mean it the first time?
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Old October 20, 2009, 12:53 PM   #10
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TG: Oathkeepers, nowhere on their website, encourage violence or revolt.

They say they will not cross "these 10 lines."

Just passive resistance to orders that they as police/military/etc view as inappropriate behavior. They may face termination from the jobs, courts martial or other repercussions from their decisions, but nowhere do they say they're gonna storm Congress or the Oval Office and liberate us from tyranny.
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Old October 20, 2009, 01:13 PM   #11
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These are mostly things that police and the military have already done, in most cases many times over. They have never shown any inkling of a conscience about it before. Why would it be any different now? They will do what the people writing their paychecks tell them to do. At least most will.

Quote:
1. We will NOT obey orders to disarm the American people.

2. We will NOT obey orders to conduct warrantless searches of the American people

3. We will NOT obey orders to detain American citizens as “unlawful enemy combatants” or to subject them to military tribunal.

4. We will NOT obey orders to impose martial law or a “state of emergency” on a state.

5. We will NOT obey orders to invade and subjugate any state that asserts its sovereignty.

6. We will NOT obey any order to blockade American cities, thus turning them into giant concentration camps.

7. We will NOT obey any order to force American citizens into any form of detention camps under any pretext.

8. We will NOT obey orders to assist or support the use of any foreign troops on U.S. soil against the American people to “keep the peace” or to “maintain control."

9. We will NOT obey any orders to confiscate the property of the American people, including food and other essential supplies.

10.We will NOT obey any orders which infringe on the right of the people to free speech, to peaceably assemble, and to petition their government for a redress of grievances
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Old October 20, 2009, 02:28 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azredhawk44
Just passive resistance to orders that they as police/military/etc view as inappropriate behavior.
From their web site:

Quote:
If you, the American people, are forced to once again fight for your liberty in another American Revolution, you will not be alone. We will stand with you.
Pretty thinly veiled threat there.

Quote:
We hope for a return to a Constitutional Republic free from fear and hatred. We hate only tyranny.
So we are right now under a tyrannical unconstitutional government?

Quote:
We are Oath Sworn Americans who want the Constitution returned to its legal and rightful place, intact, as the ultimate Law of the Land.
And the COTUS is not intact now? And how do you think they wish to return to the Constitution? By passive resistance? I think not.

This looks like a front group for right wing militias. K-O-O-K-Y
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Old October 20, 2009, 03:46 PM   #13
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I think it is ironic that the last two posts were critical from both ends of the spectrum.

Joining a militia is not my purpose. I would liken it to joining any other group of people with common concerns.

I still am leaning against joining until I get feedback from other Coppers
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Old October 20, 2009, 04:12 PM   #14
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And the COTUS is not intact now?
It is. The courts and the legislature (despite what some pundits claim) still work. It'll take a great deal more to bring this country to the point where armed resistance may be necessary or justified.

In the meantime, this is just posturing and pontificating about Rex84 and such. Despite the best intentions of this group, it will attract a dangerous fringe element who think it's their time.
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Old October 20, 2009, 04:20 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wagonman
I would liken it to joining any other group of people with common concerns.
Join the NRA. They will do a better job of watch dogging our rights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Servo
In the meantime, this is just posturing and pontificating about Rex84 and such. Despite the best intentions of this group, it will attract a dangerous fringe element who think it's their time.
Like Tim McVeigh thought. N-U-T-T-Y!
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Old October 20, 2009, 04:33 PM   #16
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Like Tim McVeigh thought. N-U-T-T-Y!
It doesn't make me very popular to point it out, but we've seen a resurgence of a certain hard-line, "what part of my cold dead hands don't you understand" fanatacism the last few years. The election only served to exacerbate that.

The next Timothy McVeigh will have ties to at least one of these groups.

I'm not saying that this'll happen to the Oath Keepers, nor am I saying that it'll be the fault of whatever group counts him among its members. But I worry that when something does happen, the repercussions will affect the whole gun rights movement by association.

Look at Chris Broughton and his cheery religious beliefs. That's not someone I want associated with the cause of the 2nd Amendment, but the media will be more than happy to spin it that way.
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Old October 20, 2009, 10:11 PM   #17
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Join the NRA. They will do a better job of watch dogging our rights.
BWAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAsnortgigglesniffsnerk. Nice one TG !

Quote:
Like Tim McVeigh thought. N-U-T-T-Y!
Yeah, him and Lee Harvey Oswald, these "lone nuts" are really incredible aren't they? !
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Old October 20, 2009, 10:41 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OuTcAsT
BWAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAsnortgigglesniffsnerk. Nice one TG !
You will get a lot more done with the NRA than you will with some kookey militia group. Although you can wear more cammies with the militia kooks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OuTcAsT
Yeah, him and Lee Harvey Oswald, these "lone nuts" are really incredible aren't they?
McVeigh didn't act alone, Terry Nichols helped him. Also, read some of McVeigh's writings and they sound very much like the militia/insurrectionist bilge you hear often on the internet. The militias/insurrectionists may not have helped him but they sure fed his hatred and he was in harmony with their beliefs if not a formal member.
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Old October 20, 2009, 10:48 PM   #19
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Yeah, him and Lee Harvey Oswald, these "lone nuts" are really incredible aren't they?
There are folks who still think Oswald was part of a larger conspiracy. Not sure whether or not I believe it, but you raise a good point. Kaczynski and McVeigh did act largely alone, but that doesn't mean the next overt act will be the product of a solitary individual.

There's a few of them in every town, but the difference between now and 1995 is the internet. Now these guys can collaborate securely and anonymously over long distances. It certainly makes planning less risky and prone to discovery.

Remember how big of a deal the media made of McVeigh's NRA membership? Imagine finding out that someone blowing something up made posts on a forum we frequent, or who'd been to our local get-togethers. It has the potential to wash back on us.

Two cups of coffee and I'm feeling paranoid tonight, aren't I?
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Old October 20, 2009, 11:32 PM   #20
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I'm not saying that this'll happen to the Oath Keepers, nor am I saying that it'll be the fault of whatever group counts him among its members. But I worry that when something does happen, the repercussions will affect the whole gun rights movement by association.
Exactly. And the kind of tin-foil hat nonsense that this group seems to be putting forward only serves to encourage those unstable types. Cities as giant concentration camps? I know some people on the left who believed this sort of stuff about Bush, and they were justifiably laughed at by people on the right. Do people on the right flip and now start believing in this tripe just because they voted for the other guy?
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Old October 21, 2009, 12:12 AM   #21
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It simply sounds like a group of people concerned about the direction in which this country is heading and drawing a line in the sand. I applaud them. The ten points they bring up should be something every American should stand behind. They are Vets and police, people who have put themselves in harms way for the good of all, and already in this thread they have been associated with Timothy McVeigh, called kooky, fanatic, inciting rebellion. I'm sure the founding fathers were called worse. They took an oath to protect and defend the Constitution, which is the ultimate law of the land ,not the President, the Congress, or the Supreme Court. If you want to join wagonman, then by all means do. I might even join myself.
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Old October 21, 2009, 02:16 AM   #22
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Quote:
It simply sounds like a group of people concerned about the direction in which this country is heading and drawing a line in the sand.
If I "draw a line in the sand" against Martian mind control devices, does that make me a great patriot? No, it makes me a paranoid loon, because there ARE no Martian mind control devices. And there's no foreign troops, and there's no giant concentration camps. It's simply this: crazy talk.

Folks look at people like this and then think gee, that stereotype of gun owners as all being crazy anti-government survivalists ready to shoot anybody who looks at them cross-eyed must be true.
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Old October 21, 2009, 09:07 AM   #23
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ADB well said!

This is just fearmongering and we know that people who like to fearmonger a) Don't believe the stuff themselves b) makes LOTS of money off the chumps they convince to join them c) Probably laugh at the suckers they got the money from who are afraid.
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Old October 21, 2009, 09:53 AM   #24
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Laugh all you want.

But Order No. 6 ("We will NOT obey any order to blockade American cities, thus turning them into giant concentration camps") happens all the time around me.

The "government" orders that my town be blockaded about three times a year. I kid you not. Once in a while, they drop these big gates on the four roads out of town and...there we are. Concentrated.

Now, so far, this only happens during high plains blizzards. But the precedent is set!

And, let me tell you, it ain't pretty. For instance, when we get blockaded/concentrated by these government forces, it is nearly impossible to get a fresh banana for, like, two days.

And while I know this forced banana-denial is no picnic, I had no idea it was unconstitutional. And treason.

I learn a lot on the internet.
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Old October 21, 2009, 10:09 AM   #25
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Wagonman, thank you for posting this.

I believe this is a good thing in that it provides an opportunity for the police & military to go on-record regarding their support of the Bill of Rights- which is after all the part of the Constitution we're talking about here.

It also provides an opportunity for like-minded citizens to join in that support- closing the purported 'chasm' between 'us and them' which in my experience, is mostly imaginary.

It all comes down to this- I will not turn my guns on the populace to further unconstitutional laws or prop up tin dictators, at any level of government. Period.

A man will have already identified patriotic duties, resolved the moral issues, made these decisions, had 'the talk' with his OIC and accepted the consequences, whether they lie in the present or in the future. His membership in a group like Oath Keepers will change nothing, other than to give public notice of that articulated in the paragraph above.

To the Chicken Liittles who fear such a group, there is nothing I can say to ease your fears. Either grab a rudder & steer or be prepared to ride the ship into the rocks. The ship of state proceeds toward its inevitable fate, with or without you.

ADB- whether we agree or not, I LOL'ed at the line about Martian mind control devices...obviously, you haven't seen the bulletin
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