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Old September 7, 2009, 12:53 PM   #1
DT Guy
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Chicago PD shoots offender and....Chicago PD?

Perhaps I missed another post-if so, my apologies:
Remember Rule Number Four?

I'm not judging-perhaps what was done was the best available option, and absolutely necessary.

I will say that I'm amazed nobody considered impact weapons (batons) against the knife, as it appears they had time and (some degree of) containment.

I would also note the explanation at the end by the spokesman, who makes shooting into a 'human police backstop' sound more like an act of god or nature than a decision by a human being.
Quote:
Weis said the incident illustrates "the dangers of police work."

"We had someone who was trying to murder someone right in front of two officers," he said. "And unfortunately they have to use some type of force to protect that individual. So when you have weapons involved and bullets are being fired, sometimes it's a very dangerous situation. Fortunately, no one was hit other than the person who was trying to murder an individual and the officer, and thanks to God, he had body armor on him and he was fine."
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Old September 7, 2009, 01:12 PM   #2
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I'm curious as to whether or not the bullet that struck the officer first penetrated all the way through the perp in this instance. Anyone know what Chicago PD is carrying these days?

Good thing he had a vest.
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Old September 7, 2009, 01:21 PM   #3
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I'm pretty sure Chicago cops carry Glock 22s (.40 S&W).

They're definitely JHPs, so I doubt it was a through-and-through. Likely it either winged the guy, hit a limb, or even missed entirely.

Now that this kind of thing is becoming the norm, what happens when you get stabbed without a cop conveniently in sight? No self defense allowed for the Peons in Daley's Chicago...
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Old September 7, 2009, 01:23 PM   #4
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Quote:
I will say that I'm amazed nobody considered impact weapons (batons) against the knife, as it appears they had time and (some degree of) containment
You have to get waaay too close to use a baton. Remember, distance is your friend against someone armed with a knife.
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Old September 7, 2009, 01:30 PM   #5
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I understand the distance concerns-but it sounds like there were several officers there to provide cover, and time to try OC. And while a baton vs. knife isn't first choice, neither is setting off four or five (accounts vary) rounds on a crowded street, IMHO.

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Old September 7, 2009, 01:39 PM   #6
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They had already tried OC and it failed. From the linked article:

Quote:
The officers initially had tried to subdue the man with pepper spray as he brandished a knife and threatened people...
And

Quote:
The officers tried to hit him with pepper spray, they did, no effect. He continued on and he kept escalating his actions.
So OC hadn't worked. Why not try a little tincture of time? Lots of other cops on scene, so why not back off and wait? Here's why:

Quote:
But when he grabbed an elderly man...
Okay, so you've got a violent person with a knife who has already shrugged off the pepper spray. And now knifeguy has just grabbed a bystander, so there's no time to futz around with lesser options: the creep has to be stopped RIGHT NOW or the innocent person dies.

It's impossible to tell from the article whether the other cop was shot by a pass-through or by a miss, but given that the perpetrator was DRT and the elderly victim uninjured, I'm betting it was a pass through. Be interesting to see details on it, if they come out.

From the article:

Quote:
"They were in very close proximity," Weis said. "The officer who was hit in the vest had actually had hands on the individual trying to disarm him. The other officer, in fear of both his partner's life and the innocent victim, he used his weapon, striking both the offender and his partner officer."
That sure sounds like a pass-through. (And like a wild rodeo...)

And here's the tactics and training component: watch your backstop and your angles. You are responsible for every round that leaves your firearm, not just the ones that hit your intended target. It would very much suck to kill someone you loved while trying to save the life of someone else you care about.

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Old September 7, 2009, 01:54 PM   #7
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I realize they had time to try OC-hence my suggestion that, if they had time to try OC, they could have (instead) tried a disarm with an impact weapon.

OC isn't first choice on a knife-wielding subject, anymore than a baton is, but a mechanical disarm is more reliable than a chemical restraint, if you have to choose.

Again, Monday-morning quarterbacking; but I really wonder what happened to those OTHER rounds, and what the spokesman would be saying if they were lodged in a couple of citizens, rather than having dissipated into the ether....


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Old September 7, 2009, 02:01 PM   #8
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Quote:
Quote:
"They were in very close proximity," Weis said. "The officer who was hit in the vest had actually had hands on the individual trying to disarm him. The other officer, in fear of both his partner's life and the innocent victim, he used his weapon, striking both the offender and his partner officer."

That sure sounds like a pass-through. (And like a wild rodeo...)
That's what I was thinking.
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Old September 7, 2009, 02:02 PM   #9
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Lord I am happy I do not live down there anymore. Had plenty of guns but had to keep them locked up and hid. Only had a folding knife and a makeshift kubotan made out of a ballpeen hammer handle for self defense.

So now I live in Wisconsin where I don't have to hide them but can't carry them while driving and can't carry concealed. And people think California is screwy. Cops did what they had to do and I'm glad that his buddy didn't think his vest was to heavy and hot and left it at home or in his locker like some do, you just never know.
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Old September 7, 2009, 02:34 PM   #10
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You'd be amazed how quickly someone can cover 5-10 yards and stick you. I'm not going anywhere near someone with a knife, and I'd treat one the same way I'd treat a firearm.
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Old September 7, 2009, 04:02 PM   #11
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I was always taught that impact and other intermediate weapons are generally not for someone wielding a knife. Now, were there time and another officer and there was no immediate danger to anyone, you MIGHT consider a Taser so long as the other officer was standing by with a lethal force option in the event the Taser missed or failed to stop the BG. In a one on one against someone with a knife, I'll take the firearm every time (time permitting). If someone would like to bet their life by using a baton or pepper spray against a knife, be my guest. Knife = deadly force

You should always watch your backstop but in a tense, confusing situation I can see how it happens. Hope the cop recovers and everybody learns a lesson
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Old September 7, 2009, 04:12 PM   #12
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Inside 5 feet a person with a good sized knife is actually more dangerous than the average citizen with a handgun. Although a knife won't knock you down it certainly has a better chance of killing you. Gashes take longer to heal than holes and a knife doesn't run out of ammo.

This situation became much more complicated because of the hostage. It seems the officers did the best they could under the circumstances.
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Old September 7, 2009, 04:44 PM   #13
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DT Guy, it sounds to me you're just looking for any way, no mattered how tortured the reasoning, to justify to yourself that the cop was wrong in shooting the BG. Not as I see it. A knife is a deadly weapon, and an innocent victim was in imminent danger from the bad guy in this case. I'm just glad the injured police officer will apparently be ok.
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Old September 7, 2009, 05:00 PM   #14
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Way to go CPD
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Old September 7, 2009, 05:11 PM   #15
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haha I had to reload my knife the other day.

What does OC and DRT mean?

OC = Oleoresin Capsicum (Pepper Spray)
DRT = Dead Right There

Last edited by JohnKSa; September 7, 2009 at 07:50 PM. Reason: Added definitions.
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Old September 7, 2009, 06:27 PM   #16
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Quote:
You'd be amazed how quickly someone can cover 5-10 yards and stick you. I'm not going anywhere near someone with a knife, and I'd treat one the same way I'd treat a firearm.
I agree.

I'm actually more scared of someone with a knife than I am a gun. The difference is:

With a gun I may get shot.
With a knife I will get cut


Against an adversary with a knife inside of ten to fifteen yards I'm going with a gun every chance I get.

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Old September 7, 2009, 06:30 PM   #17
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It was a through and through shot that hit the other Copper. The offender had a knife to a citizens throat, the Copper had one play he made it. other Copper ok with a hit to his vest. I don't know what the Copper was carrying. We are authorized .38 spcl, 9mm, .45, 40 S&W in all the major brands---either DAO or striker fired---depending on time OTJ
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Old September 7, 2009, 06:42 PM   #18
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So no more .357 Magnum for you Chicago coppers?

Dang, there goes the neighborhood.

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Old September 7, 2009, 06:56 PM   #19
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if if if if

Ponder this. How many times do you tell someone to drop a knife?
If they had waited another couple seconds the citizen could have been killed.
What would you charge ($$$) to disarm a knife wielding maniac with a baton?
Is it really worth risking you life to save the life of a knife wielding maniac?
How long before a knife wielding maniac will be out of hospital/jail after being disarmed by baton wielding cop?
How many knife wielding maniac does a town the size of Chicago need?
It is nothing wrong with being crazy until it threatens others.

Deadly weapons call for deadly force, not spray and batons and stern words.

But I may be wrong.
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Old September 7, 2009, 07:02 PM   #20
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Gee whiz- I can hear them now "why didn't that officer just use pepper spray/mace/nightstick/tazer/tackle him/wait him out..." when the poor little crazy criminal wielding a knife gets shot by the police.
Give me a freakin' break! If you don't want to take a chance at getting shot and killed (rightfully so) by the police, then DON'T start something!!!
Good lord, who CARES if this lunatic coulda-woulda-shoulda been apprehended with a Tactical Teddy Bear Maneuver. HE chose his path. HE must pay the price.
Way to go CPD.
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Old September 7, 2009, 07:11 PM   #21
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knife vs. gun

Sorry guys, but if some bad guy pulls a knife, I'm putting two in his chest. First thing all police recruits are taught when it comes to fighting is "50/50 mean you lose" No cop will or should EVER fight "fair". A retired Illinois corrections officer friend of mine told me the snipers of the Dept. of Corrections are trained to shoot through the good guy's shoulder in order to hit the bad guy. My favorite saying when it comes to fighting for your life- "The only dirty fight is the one you lose."

P.S. I'm into my 19th year as a Corrections Officer and I've never lost a fight. I've caused an entire housing unit to be moved to the rec yard so the cell could be aired out after I dumped a whole can of pepper spray on ONE bad guy because if I hadn't emptied the can I would have been killed.

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Old September 7, 2009, 09:10 PM   #22
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<Chuckle>

No, I'm not at all concerned that Mr. BG got all dead. I've no idea how anyone got this idea:

Quote:
DT Guy, it sounds to me you're just looking for any way, no mattered how tortured the reasoning, to justify to yourself that the cop was wrong in shooting the BG. Not as I see it. A knife is a deadly weapon, and an innocent victim was in imminent danger from the bad guy in this case. I'm just glad the injured police officer will apparently be ok.
The only tactical 'error' I'm considering is using the partner as a backstop, and the only reason I'd avoid using a firearm is because the area in question is absolutely TEEMING with people at that time of day.

I'm not suggesting that a baton vs. a knife is generally appropriate on the use-of-force continuum, but wondering 'aloud' if alternatives for disarming this yahoo existed.

For the record, I've survived three knife attacks, and teach both knife and counter-knife; I'm exceptionally aware of what a knife can do, from both the perspective of a defender and an aggressor.

Perhaps this question will arouse less (mistaken) ire: I wonder if any officer considered approaching from behind and shooting straight down into the offender's head? That would be one of the very few 'safe' shots to take, but I'm guessing that most wouldn't even consider it, never having been taught to shoot that way.

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Old September 8, 2009, 01:18 AM   #23
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Quote:
Perhaps this question will arouse less (mistaken) ire: I wonder if any officer considered approaching from behind and shooting straight down into the offender's head? That would be one of the very few 'safe' shots to take, but I'm guessing that most wouldn't even consider it, never having been taught to shoot that way.
Larry, I'm with you. There's more than one way to watch your angles & your backstop.

It sure sounds like a wild situation. Wonder if that was an option in this case.

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Old September 8, 2009, 07:29 AM   #24
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Quote:
I wonder if any officer considered approaching from behind ...
And maybe that is how the officer got shot, only he didn't expect the situation in front to change as it changed and his effective sneaking around to the back was overly effective?

Yeah, with a dynamic situation, the firing officer might have had rule number 4 in the clear up and until the very last split second when another officer moved into the line of trajectory (and potentially not in the line of situational sight). In other words, the field of fire might have been clear the moment before shooting and when the situation escalated, the shooting officer became necessarily focussed on not shooting the old man that was grabbed, thereby shortening his situational view while at the same time, another officer previously not in the field of fire moved around behind the suspect, out of situational view.

In a dynamic situation, it can be hard to stop a bad guy when immediacy demands, while at the same time doing a secondary visual sweep of all areas behind and beyond the target.
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Old September 8, 2009, 07:42 AM   #25
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Quote:
I will say that I'm amazed nobody considered impact weapons (batons) against the knife, as it appears they had time and (some degree of) containment.

Nope, if a guy is in close with a knife he is deploying lethal force. The only appropriate responce is lethal force.
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