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Old September 6, 2009, 01:51 AM   #1
butta9999
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Exit or No Exit

I have this debate with my mates all the time... Do you prefer the bullet to pass right through the animal your shooting or for the bullet to lodge somewhere in the vitals.

I have always opted for a controlled bullet that expands holds weight retention and leaves an exit hole...

Example i use Barnes Triple shock in my .300wm and partition bullets, and most of the time they exit..

My mate prefers a quick expanding bullet that explodes in the animal, usually a ballistic tip or hollow point.. We have both had success but was wondering what your opinions are.. In big game rifles mainly
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Old September 6, 2009, 01:57 AM   #2
longranger
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Bullets that exit did not expend their energy as effectively as one that does not.Perfect bullet to species will leave the bullet on the far side of the species. Easier said than done,but I do like a bullet to expend all of it's energy in the animal.
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Old September 6, 2009, 03:28 AM   #3
vanilla_gorilla
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I want two holes. Big ones, if at all possible.

I'm still waiting to have somebody explain to me how "transferring energy" kills an animal. (Other than the guy who tried to tell me that it drives up the animals blood pressure so rapidly that the heart explodes. )
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Old September 6, 2009, 03:38 AM   #4
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Two holes. Larger slower bullet............... But then we shoot up close. Different places and terrain may require a differnt plan.
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Old September 6, 2009, 03:46 AM   #5
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Macht Nichts to me... so long as the critter rolls up dead right away if not DRT, I couldn't care less.
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Old September 6, 2009, 08:42 AM   #6
Art Eatman
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I'm pretty much with hogdogs. I never worried about it. On Bambi, an '06 generally goes all the way through. A .243 is a sometimes thing. Regardless, the great majority of all my deer have been bang-flops, one shot.
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Old September 6, 2009, 09:09 AM   #7
Waterengineer
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Vanilla:

OK, I will try this.

A bullet kills by shock, energy transfer if you will. It is the sear brute force of the impact that kills. It does not kill by cutting things up, and letting the game animal bleed out like a broadhead arrow.

Look at it this way. A boxer can knock out a dude, making him pass out, right? Lights out, just by impact, shock.

A bullet works the same way, just in the extreme. Bang, huge shock , dead. The bleed out, blood trail, etc. that is all just secondary.

A perfectly expanded bullet, left just inside the animal's skin (on the far side) theoretically means that virtually all energy of the bullet is used up in the killing process (traveling through the animal and expanding the bullet). Thus the comment above about matching the bullet to the game animal.

(Well that is not quite true because energy was expended getting the bullet out of the cartridge, donw the barrel, and through the air.)

Now with all that said, my preference is bullet selection that leaves a wound channel large enough to get the job done but not so hateful as to ruin a large volume of meat. Thus, my thread yesterday asking for wound channel in gel photo website(s).

In practice what this means is that I have been going down power ( down the energy curve) in caliber/cartridge the last couple of years.
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Old September 6, 2009, 09:38 AM   #8
castnblast
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I posted something about this back in 07. I'll go look for it. I did an experiment w/ my 22-250. (not advocating 22 cal here) I shot a deer smak in the shoulder - I had some shoulder issues of my own, and got rid of my 300 win mag. I had that gun for elk hunting but got rid of it because I won't be going elk hunting anytime soon.

Anyway - I shot a 8 pt smack in the shoulder. It was a w/ a 55gr. Sierra Game King - thicker jacket than factory stock ammo. It was reloaded and shooting around 3680 fps. Anyway, Bang flop - imense hydrostatic shock - internals were blown to goo. (heart/lungs) But...no exit. Good thing I got a bang flop. Had the animal ran, tracking would have been downright impossible with no exit, and a small entrance wound. I killed 8 deer, and 3 hogs with that gun, the hogs being shot in the head. Shoulder is better now, Dad passed away, so I have spent some time working up loads and will take his 270 to the field this year, for sentimental reasons, as well as performance - I found myself in an undergunned situation - we were doing some hog management, and on our way out, there was a HUGE boar. I shot for the head, but I hit what I think was in the neck. We heard the bullet smack, andsaw a huge amount of dust fly off in that vacinity from the hog & it took off like nothing. Looking back, we theorized that hog was close to 400lbs. Way to thick a skin for that bullet. Had I had the 270 this would have been a dead animal.

The point is, I'd go with a bullet designed for the game you are shooting, take it up a notch for the unexpected. Down here, where I hunt, large oversize boars are around, and I want a bullet that is capable to take one down, especially if charged. Doesn't mean monster bullet, but for my 270, I'm going w/ the optimal 130 gr. BTSP. In your 25-06, Id go 100 gr or heavier, w/ my preference being 115-120's. I'm not a fan of partitions because of their exposed lead base. Bullet tests show that the base of the bullet has more dffect on accuracy than the tips. I reloaded 25-06 for years until I wore the barrel out of my 25-06. My guess is I ran over 5000 rounds through it. I shot it like I shoot my 22-250 today.
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Old September 6, 2009, 11:58 AM   #9
VaFisher
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It's better to have ths skock and have the anaimal drop on the spot then it is to have a hole all the way from one side to the other plus have to track it to find it afterward.
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Old September 6, 2009, 12:35 PM   #10
BeeGee
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expantion or penetration?

I hunt whitetails here in Ohio with a handgun. I have since it was first allowed. In my experiences I have had much better luck with heavy cast bullets such as Oregon Trail True Shot.
I had a few expanding bullets not do their job and lost the deer due to no exit wound. I hit a good spot but I'd guess the bullet broke apart on the rib cage and though it may have died , I never found it. (and I searched for hours).
I shoot a Blackhawk .41 magnum with a 265 gr. True Shot WNFP Gas Check over 19 gr. of 'Lil Gun and when I do my part that deer drops where he stands or may go 30 yrds or so. At least I don't have to go searchn'.
I'm no ballistics expert but I know this works. I love using a handgun to hunt in my neck of the woods plus I get to pick a different caliber every year. I sometimes even move to a different gun after I have downed my first deer. Think of all the different guns I can use and calibers. ( Sure , I had to get another safe but it is FUN FUN FUN!!)
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Old September 6, 2009, 01:39 PM   #11
simonkenton
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I am in the No Exit school.
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Old September 6, 2009, 02:36 PM   #12
banditt007
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I think ideally you'd have a bullet that just plops out of the far side of the skin and falls on the ground. Fully energy dump + exit wound In general i'm more of an exit wound type of guy. But still want expansion, though just not as violently as a bullet that enters and after 8" fragments like crazy and makes everything jello. I feel w/ an exit wound you are usually getting a bit less blood shot meat and also, if at a non broad side angle you have more leeway with a bullet that will usually pass through, than you would on a lighter constructed bullet. Its just preference but i'd always err on the side of more penetration than less.
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Old September 6, 2009, 02:54 PM   #13
hardluk1
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I like both but for different purposes for tough or heavy animals i like to use a barnes or hardcast in the shoulders . For deer and the like a nice highly expansive bullet that will upset alot of tissue, like a SST or balistic tip. Darn sure helped trail lots of partition shot deer during the last 30 years, alway died just had to find to many. So i never shot them
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Old September 6, 2009, 03:12 PM   #14
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I agree with the thought of it doesn't matter as long as the end results in a recovered animal. I've used quite a few cup and core and premium bullets, and I've had bullets in both styles not exit and blow clean through. I like good blood trails and two holes make better trails, however a bullet properly placed makes tracking a fairly easy task. Shot placement trumps all other bullet charcteristics.
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Old September 6, 2009, 05:37 PM   #15
Daryl
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I've had very few bullets that actually stayed in an animal. I like a bullet that will expand, but I also want it to retain enough weight for good penetration.

I DON'T want a bullet for big game hunting that's designed for shallow penetration and/or fragmentation. They work fine, but they destroy too much meat.

With the expanding bullet, I couldn't care less if it exits or not as long as it penetrates the vitals.

I shot an elk (running) many years ago and didn't hit it quite right. The first shot was at about 100 yards, and the bullet exited. The second shot was around 600 yards, and I still have that bullet. It mushroomed great, and I found it under the hide after it passed through the far shoulder.

More recently, I shot a buffalo at about 50 yards and the bullet didn't exit. It really didn't matter, since the critter fell dead in something shy of 3 seconds.

So, I prefer an expanding bullet that holds together, but whether or not it exits isn't an issue for me. I shoot the same bullets at deer, elk, bear, buffalo, antelope, and any other big game I'm likely to pursue; they exit some, and stay in others, but they've always resulted in a quick kill when I did my part right.

And that's about all I can ask for from a bullet.

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Old September 7, 2009, 01:02 AM   #16
Tom Matiska
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Damage to the trees behind the deer doesn't count.... energy that exits is energy wasted.....
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Old September 7, 2009, 07:37 AM   #17
Daryl
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Quote:
Damage to the trees behind the deer doesn't count.... energy that exits is energy wasted.....
This is true, but energy deposited in an animal isn't what kills the animal. A baseball bat thumped into the rib cage can deliver more energy on target than a bullet, but it isn't likely to kill an elk, or even a deer.

If energy on target was what killed an animal, bullet placement on the animal would be irrelevant.

Damage to the nervous system, circulatory system, and vital organs is what kills an animal. A bullet passing through those organs damages them, and THAT's what kills the animal. Shock to the nervous system, or sufficient damage to the circulatory system to cause massive blood pressure loss is what stops an animal quickly. Energy in a bullet only gives the bullet what it needs to do the job.

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Old September 7, 2009, 11:23 AM   #18
hogdogs
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With the deer I have used 00 buck on, they still died right away but I never had an exit nor did any particular pellet have a ton of energy compared to a BT bullet but each combined were effective...
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Old September 7, 2009, 11:32 AM   #19
22-rimfire
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I prefer two holes with the exit hole being larger than the entrance hole. Handgun hits often do not exit the deer if it hits a front shoulder. That is mostly what I use now. Two holes makes tracking a deer easier. But dead is dead. If a deer runs 50-60 yds, no big deal.
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Old September 7, 2009, 11:46 AM   #20
thallub
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Quote:
Macht Nichts to me... so long as the critter rolls up dead right away if not DRT, I couldn't care less.
+1

Same here. I pick my shots carefully and the vast majority of my deer and hogs are bang flops. Sometimes they exit and sometimes they don't. Makes no difference to me.
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Old September 7, 2009, 12:06 PM   #21
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I'm of the "use enough gun" department and you won't have too much to worry about. I've hunted with a .308, 30.06, 7mm Rem Mag and a .45-70 and on deer and antelope, all of them have made two nice holes on the animals and all of them have either dropped where they stood or ran a short bit and expired.
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Old September 7, 2009, 12:08 PM   #22
FrankenMauser
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Even without a co-conspirator to argue with, I am torn when this question comes up.

I have seen fantastic shots, with DRT outcomes, where the bullet hardly even expanded and blew right through. I have also seen shots with 24"+ penetration, with horrendous wound channels through vital organs, with no exit, and the animal continued on its merry way.

The real reason I am torn when this comes up.... I like to recover the bullets to see what kind of performance was achieved.

There's nothing quite like a good exit wound, though..... (Warning, graphic image.) Exit
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Old September 7, 2009, 02:03 PM   #23
ZeroJunk
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I've killed two big bucks with an old Thompson Renegade Hunter side lock using 250 grain XTP hollow points. They are not going to go all the way through and the deer is going to run 50 yards or so I don't care where you hit him. If it is really late it is nice to have an exit wound with an immediate blood trail. If you bust him with a big rifle doesn't make much difference it seems.
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Old September 7, 2009, 02:06 PM   #24
Daryl
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Quote:
The real reason I am torn when this comes up.... I like to recover the bullets to see what kind of performance was achieved.
I like to recover bullets too, when it's possible. That said, I've only recovered three in all my years of hunting (I've been hunting all my life).

One was from a little coues deer buck that was shot at around 80 yards. The bullet was a 175 gr 7mm Sierra Game King, and it didn't exit even though it never hit any bones. The jacket I recovered has no lead in it, and even though the deer dropped on the spot, I consider it bullet failure. Those bullets were loaded for elk, and that bullet likely would NOT have performed well on a larger animal; especially if bone was hit.

Another was revovered from an elk shot at around 600 yards (finishing shot), a 145 gr 7mm Speer BTSP. It mushroomed just like I'd want, and the elk dropped when the bullet hit.

The 3rd is a .22 LR bullet (Velocitor) recovered from the far side of a bobcat's head after it passed through the skull and brain. The entrance was up the nose, and the bullet was just under the skin on the backside of the head.

But, when the bullet passes out the backside, and the animal drops in it's tracks, I don't need the bullet to show what performance I got. If I need more, I can usually tell what happened from the level of meat damage.



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Old September 7, 2009, 03:06 PM   #25
Waterengineer
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Daryl says:
But, when the bullet passes out the backside, and the animal drops in it's tracks, I don't need the bullet to show what performance I got. If I need more, I can usually tell what happened from the level of meat damage.

Reply:

And thus my desire for a limited expansion bullet and a pass through - for on these smallish Florida deer - trying to limit the meat damage on an already small animal.
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