The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old September 4, 2009, 02:40 PM   #1
gdeal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 30, 2005
Location: Southern California
Posts: 748
2 to the chest 1 to the head but what if...

there are two people? then would it just be a double-tap to each person? I might have to put up four bulls-eye targets to simulate two people. right now I have one round target above another round target. I shoot two to the bottom target and one to the top target. I print them out from the Remington web site and it's cheaper than buying the human sillouette targets at the range. Anyway back to my original question... What should the shooting be if there are two people side-by-side?
gdeal is offline  
Old September 4, 2009, 02:45 PM   #2
comn-cents
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2008
Location: Pac.N.W.
Posts: 1,804
It depends on the situation. Is one guy closer, is one armed?
For me if both are the same distance away and one is armed armed guy gets a couple, not armed guy may get a pass, depending on their reactions.
Both armed one closer than the other, closer guy gets one farther guy gets 2 then back to the close guy. Same distance both armed same thing, one in BG #1 then 2 in BG#2 then back to BG #1
__________________
Be Smarter Than A Bore-Snake!
comn-cents is offline  
Old September 4, 2009, 03:09 PM   #3
Nowhere Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 5, 2009
Location: North Port, FL
Posts: 172
Two shots each. Go back to first for head shot. Finish with head shot to the second target.


Dave
Nowhere Man is offline  
Old September 4, 2009, 03:13 PM   #4
Dragon55
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2009
Location: East Tennessee
Posts: 811
Carry something that will go through and through. Quickly run to their flank and start firing at the first BG ...... shots go through and get #2 also
__________________
sailing ... A way to spend lots of money and go real S L O W
Dragon55 is offline  
Old September 4, 2009, 03:29 PM   #5
THEZACHARIAS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 537
If you are to a point where you know they are both armed (most likely because 2 barrels are pointed at your chest), im gonna have to say its too late to be trying to shoot anyone. By the time you clear your holster, theyre gonna have half a magazine in you. Best bet is to talk the situation down or wait/hope/create enough of a distraction so you can draw and fire.

Cant hurt to practice a 2 to each chest followed by 1 to each head kind of drill, though. You never know, if its dark you just might get your shots off. The trick in this situation will be doing it without getting yourself shot too.
THEZACHARIAS is offline  
Old September 4, 2009, 03:32 PM   #6
markj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 27, 2005
Location: Crescent Iowa
Posts: 2,969
For more than one assailant I would recommend a hand grenade.

If a person or two attacks you and you draw upon them I doubt if you will get a chance to double tap each one unless they are far away.

Try one shot to center mass on each then cover them until 911 gets there.

Better yet try to avoid any type of confrontation like this, you will feel better.
markj is offline  
Old September 4, 2009, 03:38 PM   #7
serf 'rett
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 25, 2009
Location: Stuttgart
Posts: 1,383
The closer/farther and armed/unarmed thing is sensible.

Nowhere, since I have no tactical training, I’m wondering why you wouldn’t take the head shot at #2 while you’re still locked in on them from the double tap, before switching back to #1 for head shot?
serf 'rett is offline  
Old September 4, 2009, 03:40 PM   #8
comn-cents
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2008
Location: Pac.N.W.
Posts: 1,804
Dragon55 That's a great answer

THEZACHARIAS armed with what? Armed can mean many things.
Armed doesn't mean that the BG is prepared or alert. It is very possible to draw a shot before they can react.
I've seen this and practiced this many times.
My mother in-law was a cop for 27 yrs and told me this story. There was a cop that walk into a bank robbery, not knowing what was going on. He was in street clothes and the three BG all had hostages with guns to their heads. He shot all of the BG before any of them could responded.
__________________
Be Smarter Than A Bore-Snake!
comn-cents is offline  
Old September 4, 2009, 03:46 PM   #9
THEZACHARIAS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2009
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 537
This is true. But resolving this kind of scenario sounds more dependant on the specific circumstances rather than the actual disparity in the number of participants.
THEZACHARIAS is offline  
Old September 4, 2009, 03:48 PM   #10
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,791
Quote:
Originally Posted by gdeal
What should the shooting be if there are two people side-by-side?
I believe the saying goes "Everyone gets firsts before anyone gets seconds."
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old September 4, 2009, 04:02 PM   #11
comn-cents
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2008
Location: Pac.N.W.
Posts: 1,804
+1^
__________________
Be Smarter Than A Bore-Snake!
comn-cents is offline  
Old September 4, 2009, 04:15 PM   #12
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Multiple attacker drills

First, as other posters have noted, avoidance is the best tactic.

Second, sometimes we lose our situational awareness, or the environment is just rife with hiding places despite our best efforts. EG, one avoids the shadowy doorway by moving closer to the street while walking down the sidewalk, but a BG pops out from behind a parked van...

So, if there's more than one attacker, and if you think engaging is the only viable option at that point, just bear in mind that moving will cause them more problems than it will cause you. IE, try to move in such a way that you put one of the attackers between you and the other attacker(s). You can shoot down that line and hit BG's either way; the farther BG(s) risk hitting their teammate if they try to shoot at you.

We do these sort of drills vs melee weapons or open-hand all the time in aikido; it's called "randori." One learns very quickly the value of trying to move so that your opponents get in each other's way.

But again, the best thing is to avoid the problem in the first place.

Cheers,

M
MLeake is offline  
Old September 4, 2009, 08:52 PM   #13
Nowhere Man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 5, 2009
Location: North Port, FL
Posts: 172
serf 'rett wrote;
Quote:
Nowhere, since I have no tactical training, I’m wondering why you wouldn’t take the head shot at #2 while you’re still locked in on them from the double tap, before switching back to #1 for head shot?
In theory, the body shots to #1 and #2 only shook them up. You want to return to #1 with a head shot before he is able to return fire. Taking the head shot on #2 first may give #1 enough time to rejoin the fight.


Dave
Nowhere Man is offline  
Old September 4, 2009, 09:32 PM   #14
Trigger Finger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 15, 2008
Location: Northern California
Posts: 375
There was a drill we went through years ago that was taught in the academy.

When confronted with more than one opponent in a shooting situation, shoot one shot in the 10 ring in each opponent targeting the closest first then return to fire a second or third shot in those that need it!
If I recall correctly it was called the Hickok Technique. Supposedly named after a bar room shooting Wild Bill was involved in.
__________________
Land of the Free Because of the Brave!
Trigger Finger is offline  
Old September 4, 2009, 09:42 PM   #15
HuntAndFish
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2006
Location: Kansas City, MO.
Posts: 580
^ +1. Also commonly referred to as boarding house rules. Everyone gets a helping before anyone gets seconds.

ETA: However, it has been shown to me in a timed drill that with only two opponents a quick hammer to both targets is a fraction of a second faster than a box drill on them. You need to decide what to do for yourself and practice it.
__________________
NRA Benefactor
MSSA Life Member

Last edited by HuntAndFish; September 4, 2009 at 09:53 PM.
HuntAndFish is offline  
Old September 4, 2009, 09:43 PM   #16
stephen426
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 11, 2005
Posts: 2,886
Not productive.

Can we keep to the real issue and useful suggestions.

Also, suggestions from folks who have trained for such are better than speculation.

GEM
__________________
The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!
stephen426 is offline  
Old September 4, 2009, 10:25 PM   #17
Kyo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2009
Posts: 897
I practice by doing 3 COM in each target, then the last target going to the head, and then going back to the rest with the head as the target.
I do this with 3 targets.
with 2 I think I still would shoot 3 each in the center.
oh and I can shoot just as well with my left. doing a double carry must be a PITA
__________________
1. The gun is always loaded.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger unless you are ready to shoot.
4. Be be sure of your target and what is beyond it.
Kyo is offline  
Old September 4, 2009, 10:32 PM   #18
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Again...

... this is really one of those situations where training to move and shoot would be beneficial. Standing still and trying to play quick-draw with two or more shooters who have unobstructed lines of fire is not good odds.
MLeake is offline  
Old September 4, 2009, 10:41 PM   #19
Skan21
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 29, 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 463
No such thing as a "double tap" anymore. Technically, it's a "controlled pair", now. I guess DT's got a bad name, so they changed it. A lot like Blackwater, now that I think about it.......
__________________
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."- Robert Heinlein

Some of you guys need to trade in a few of those Safe Queens and see if you can get a good deal on a Sense of Humor.- Me
Skan21 is offline  
Old September 4, 2009, 10:42 PM   #20
akamdg
Member
 
Join Date: July 25, 2009
Posts: 24
You should be able to deliver a controlled pair to the center mass pretty rapidly. So I think it makes the most sense to fire two controlled pairs into both guys and then if they're still a threat to either continue shooting at center mass or aim at their heads.

"If a person or two attacks you and you draw upon them I doubt if you will get a chance to double tap each one unless they are far away."

I'd have to disagree with that statement. I think an example of why that's not true is the shooting that involved Bernhard Goetz. Goetz was surrounded by four guys on a subway train who were going to rob him. He drew his five-shot S&W revolver and shot all four of them in 1.6 seconds or less and stopped them from being a threat.
akamdg is offline  
Old September 4, 2009, 11:00 PM   #21
Trigger Finger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 15, 2008
Location: Northern California
Posts: 375
Goetz didn't double tap each opponent!
__________________
Land of the Free Because of the Brave!
Trigger Finger is offline  
Old September 4, 2009, 11:01 PM   #22
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Umm... Bernard Goetz?

Bernie is a diversion from the issue.
MLeake is offline  
Old September 4, 2009, 11:15 PM   #23
koolminx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 12, 2009
Posts: 520
Not productive. Also, hint - don't use words that bring up the language filter. If you see stars = **** - go back and edit your post.
koolminx is offline  
Old September 4, 2009, 11:22 PM   #24
akamdg
Member
 
Join Date: July 25, 2009
Posts: 24
No Bernie!!
akamdg is offline  
Old September 4, 2009, 11:34 PM   #25
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
You're still way off, akamdg

NO Bernie!
MLeake is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:30 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13274 seconds with 7 queries