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Old August 28, 2009, 01:03 PM   #1
red caddy
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Another Mosin-Nagant

I just aquired a M-N carbine with folding bayonet, chambered in 7.65X54R. It's a ball to shoot, and reasonably accurate.

The muzzle blast and felt recoil is objectionable. (I'm told this is the nature of the beast) What can/should be done to give this old warhorse some range manners? Muzzle brake ? shotgun recoil pad? Kick-eze? Restock? other?

Since there are many of them around cheap, and relatively in expensive ammo is available, I won't feel bad chopping this one up a bit to make it better handling and generaly more more useful. I don't want/need a pretty little "sporterized" shiney thing. A short, squat ,ugly thing, bouncing around in the back of the buggy, that will drop a hog up close, without doing permanent damage to my body Is more in line with what I want. What's to be done? Thanks, Paul.
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Old August 28, 2009, 02:29 PM   #2
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Quote:
The muzzle blast and felt recoil is objectionable. (I'm told this is the nature of the beast) What can/should be done to give this old warhorse some range manners? Muzzle brake ? shotgun recoil pad? Kick-eze? Restock? other?
Probably the two most effective solutions are:

1) Restock and/or add recoil pads. The factory Mosin-Nagant stock has a very small butt, an unyielding steel buttplate, and loads of drop, all of which tend to increase felt recoil. I've had good luck with a size "small" slip-on Limbsaver recoil pad, which fits just about perfectly and doesn't require any modifications to the rifle.

2) Handloading. Most Mosin-Nagant shooters use Eastern Bloc milsurp light ball for cost reasons, but this ammo is loaded for an M91/30 with a 28"+/- barrel rather than an M44 with a 20"+/- barrel. The burn rate of the powder in these rounds is too slow for the shorter barrel, leading to obnoxious muzzle blast. Light loads of fast powders will alleviate the problem without sacrificing performance. Be aware, however, that reloadable 7.62x54R brass tends to be expensive (albeit not unreasonable IMHO), and most Soviet rifles require 0.311"-caliber bullets due to their oversize bores.
Quote:
...I won't feel bad chopping this one up a bit to make it better handling and generaly more more useful.
1) Please don't! It's a piece of history!

2) You'll ruin its C&R status.

3) If you must modify it, please... no tac rails. It's just wrong.
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Old August 28, 2009, 02:30 PM   #3
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recoil pad, look on ebay I know someone makes a rubber 1 inch recoil pad that replaces the buttplate.
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Old August 28, 2009, 03:09 PM   #4
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Thanks for the quick reply's.
Chris, NO I'm not into black guns and Tac rails, I'm more of a M-40 kind of guy. all my working guns are green parkerized and oiled walnut or sand tan/OD plastic.

Got a suggestion on an aftermarket stock? My LOP is 14 5/8ths inches, so a butt pad will be necessary,IAE LOL. Part of what drew me to this rifle was cheap ammo, it's not something I'm going to hand load for, 'specially with a .311 bore. I already have several "one holer's", this one is just a plinker/fun gun.(as it sits, it ain't much fun to plink with, LOL)

The barrel is stamped 02 1953 BK 4253 bolt stamped BF 1948. Please tell me this ain't a rare critter, I don't care much about it's history, but I wouldn't cut up something that had real value to somebody.

Is there anything availible for a scope mount? I'm thinking a LER 4X or a red dot would be all I'd want or need.

OTOH, perhaps I should just slip on a recoil pad and gift it to a buddy that needs a medium range, SHTF, minute of running long pig, shooter... bayonet and all. Paul
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Old August 28, 2009, 03:17 PM   #5
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Umm. seems to me that instead of investing alot of money into making a sporter out of a short Mosin, you could have applied your cash towards, dare I suggest, something along the lines of a Marlin 336? Little muzzle blast from the short barrel, can be scoped easily, no need to buy a stock, etc. Pretty much alot of people buy the MN's for fun shooters or collecting, not so much to spend alot to get one of those plastic stocks, have someone figure out a scope mount, add a bent bolt handle, do whatever else and still have a gun that is as an awkward approximation of a sporter and ugly as a ducks butt. I think a surplus Mauser might be in order if you must go that route. If you chop up a MN and demil it, you got something that is not just a cheap milsurp, you got a hunk of metal that no one will buy from you later. At least not at but a fraction of your cost. I could see slipping on a rubber pad to tame it, but it is terrible fodder for sporter work, that is one reason they sell cheap!
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Old August 28, 2009, 05:53 PM   #6
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Get a bigger Mosin Nagant.
The M91/30, or the Finnish M39 are bigger and heavier, with longer barrels.
Less recoil.
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Old August 28, 2009, 08:04 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carguychris
most Soviet rifles require 0.311"-caliber bullets due to their oversize bores.
So order the bullets for the .303?
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Old August 28, 2009, 09:42 PM   #8
red caddy
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OK guy's, time to fess up. I have zero dollars invested in this old girl, she came to me as part of the collection of a, recently departed, long time high power/NBRC shooting buddy of mine.

Some of the bunch will be passed on to his family members, (I'm taking the grandson to fire his first leg match later this year) when and if they express any interest, and the rest will be spread around his/our circle of shooting pals.

This MN is the only C&R in the bunch, and not at all suited to what I wanted to do with it, (Your timely advise is greatly appreciated) so I think I'll pass it along (unadulterated) to a friend of mine that has a hole in his arsenal, with the caveat that he pass it on to another shooter that has need of it, down the road. (the only cost being, sit quietly and listen to the remembrance)

Again, thanks, to all of you, for the input and advise. Paul
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Old August 28, 2009, 09:49 PM   #9
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Well free is a different matter, I was assuming you spent 90-150$ for the thing with maybe a mind that it could be economically made into a budget sporter. That is something you would attempt for the satisfaction of doing it, as you would not get your moneys worth from the finished project with the money involved on top of the purchase price. Truly, even though they are cheap now, eventually they will become more valuable to some degree or another, and a bubba'd contraption will be at the bottom of the barrel for value or be of little value as compared to a military configured example. Compare the value now of a perfectly unmessed with non import WW2 Mauser versus one of the ones you see at the gun shows that have had the stock cut down, the sights changed and the barrel maybe shortened. NO one wants to spend much for those. And that is considering they make better sport shooters than the Russian beast.
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Old August 28, 2009, 11:19 PM   #10
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When I hunt pigs with my Model 44 M-N I use reloads with 210 grain cast bullets at about 1800 fps. They are milder on recoil.
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Old August 29, 2009, 09:02 AM   #11
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Recoil is pretty subjective. I personally don't find my M38 Mosin, which is even lighter, to be all that bad. Plenty of folks do not like it though. thing to do is to just buy a slip on recoil pad. That will tame it quite a bit, give a bit more length of pull, and will not permanently alter anything.
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Old August 29, 2009, 12:40 PM   #12
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If I imagine the markings you describe correctly, please don't do anything to the rifle and get a slip on recoil pad or something. The "02" marking indicates it to be a Hungarian rifle, which are less plentiful here than the hordes of Russians.

They aren't worth much, but they are more expensive than your typical Russian, depending on condition, matching numbers,etc.
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Old August 30, 2009, 11:41 AM   #13
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Actually, the M91/30's weigh about the same as your M44 carbine and actually have slightly more recoil due to the higher velocity. What makes the M44 seem to have more recoil is the tremendous muzzle blast. A butt pad would help and also holding the rifle butt lower and more firmly against your shoulder. Most people who shoot off a bench rest hold the rifle too high and loose. I learned this after shooting the rifle off a rest and being done after 5 rounds. Offhand, I can send 80 rounds downrange without any problem. Learning how to shoot a mosin is motivating after the beating I took shooting off a bench rest.
The M39 is definitely a beefier mosin and yes, the felt recoil on them is a bit less.
Congratulation on a Hungarian M44. Generally, they are built much more nicer than the typical Soviet refurbished rifles.
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Old August 31, 2009, 10:28 AM   #14
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Quote:
So order the bullets for the .303?
Theoretically yes, but you should slug the bore first to determine its actual diameter. Most Soviet M-Ns have bores in the 0.310"-0.311" range, but not all of them do, and firing 0.311"-caliber bullets through a tight bore could lead to a dangerous overpressure condition. Also, people report that some M-Ns with oversize bores inexplicably shoot better with 0.308"-caliber bullets. You should test it to determine what works.
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Old August 31, 2009, 11:32 AM   #15
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I have never seen any old military gun look better as a sporter than as the original. Not even a Carcano. Assuming comparable condition. Even if I were given a free Mosin, I'd leave it alone, or more likely I'd trade it, as I've already got one that I am attached to and don't see the need for having two Mosins.
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Old August 31, 2009, 03:37 PM   #16
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Deadcoyote sounds as if he is loading it down to about maybe 30-30 power, a sensible move with the short barreled rifle and basically making the gun into a bolt action 30-30 with a huge savings in bruising that would result. I guess on the 44 model you can take the bayonet off to save weight and encumbrance, but do not throw it away, as you would want to have it to sell with the gun or put it back on for that. Really they are cheap guns right now, that is because they have not cut off the supply! Remember 150$ blue sky carbines? Now they are 750$ guns some places, but I do not expect the MN to go up in value real drastically like a US made gun. Still it will start to gain value over the long haul after the supplies dry up. It ALWAYS happens. And if you got a nice looking one, not a beater or bubba'd it will hold the most interest or value to sell, say, when they start asking twice what they sell for now. Bet you wish you could still take your 750$ and buy 5 carbines with that!
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Old September 3, 2009, 02:52 PM   #17
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OK, one last dumb question. I located a supply of ammo marked as follows:

K.K.Kovia kal 7.7mm llman siteita Valtion patruunatehdas

15-12-38 1121 V.R.T.176/37 Panos2,55

It is rimmed and chamberes correctly in the M-44

Is this the correct ammo for the carbine in question?

Thanks, Paul.
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Old September 3, 2009, 03:50 PM   #18
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Can you post a photo of the ammo in question? "7.7" is more often seen in connection with .303 British (7.7x56R) ammo, but they're both bottlenecked rimmed cartridges, and I'm not sure off-hand if a .303 would fit into a 7.62x54R chamber. The Finns are known to have used both, so you're probably going to have to either post pictures or take some accurate measurements to know for sure.
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Old September 3, 2009, 04:08 PM   #19
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Quote:
OK, one last dumb question. I located a supply of ammo marked as follows:

K.K.Kovia kal 7.7mm llman siteita Valtion patruunatehdas

15-12-38 1121 V.R.T.176/37 Panos2,55

It is rimmed and chamberes correctly in the M-44

Is this the correct ammo for the carbine in question?
According to translate.google.com, "llman siteita Valtion patruunatehdas" is Finnish for "Without that ties to the government cartridge factory".

I'm guessing that the correct translation is "not from the government cartridge factory", designating that the ammo was produced by a private company. The European convention for writing dates is day-month-year rather than month-day-year like in the USA, so 15-12-38 probably means December 15th, 1938.

Finland's standard battle rifle in 1938 was the Mosin-Nagant, so it stands to reason that this may be 7.62x54R ammo. See if the headstamp matches one of these:

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinAmmoID03.htm
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Old September 3, 2009, 08:37 PM   #20
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Chris, yep the head stamp is VTP 38 and matches the picture exactly. Safe to shoot? Thanks, Paul.
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Old September 4, 2009, 09:08 AM   #21
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Quote:
What makes the M44 seem to have more recoil is the tremendous muzzle blast.
Who confuses one with the other?
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Old September 4, 2009, 11:31 AM   #22
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Duct tape a 5 pound weight to the barrel.

A good slip on pad should do the job.
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Old September 4, 2009, 12:35 PM   #23
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The M44's are becoming harder to find, and increasing in price. There have been attempts at muzzle brakes, you can look on surplusrifle's sporterizing section and see some of the successful ones. The best way to tone them down is through reloading. Most folks find their M44's prefer the heavier ammo.
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Old September 6, 2009, 07:50 PM   #24
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I put one of these on my M44;
http://www.tickbitesupply.com/mos.html#mosstock

For $15 buck, it made a world of difference. Lengthened the stock as well. No mods!
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Old September 11, 2009, 06:56 PM   #25
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recoil pad? don,t be a wimp. how do you think the guys using those to defend there life with felt?
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