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Old August 23, 2009, 11:56 AM   #26
dahermit
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When it comes to the word "auto" in reference to firearms that reload themselves, if memory serves, it was not suffixed with "matic". There were "auto-loaders". I do not think that "automatic" is the correct reference for any fire arm that must have a distinct separate single pull of the trigger for subsequent shots. The correct term, unless a machine pistol, or machine gun, is "Auto-loader" or "Auto loading action".
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Old August 23, 2009, 12:36 PM   #27
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Personally, I think such things are important to people for the same reason that saving some owl or butterfly is important to people. Namely, life is so good and so easy that we have nothing more critical with which to concern ourselves. Victims of our own prosperity, so to speak.
Well, some of us consider accurate communications a key part of our intercourse with others, not a hobby or a leisure event. There is a difference between "jargon" and the correct name for things.
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Old August 23, 2009, 08:49 PM   #28
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I don't disagree with that at all, Bud. However, proper terminology is entirely different than the all too common practice of hijacking some poor newbies thread because he said "clip" instead of "magazine".

Those who know the proper terminology should use it and should gently encourage others to do the same.

So, is it "important"? Yes, it can be. Certain terms can be dangerous if misused.

Other times, no it's not. "Clip" vs "magazine" is decidedly NOT important. Different? Yes, well, maybe.... There's not even a consensus on that and yet I've seen multiple threads in just the last year that I've been on TFL wherein some poor newb gets replies that are nasty and arrogant because he "misuses" the word.
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Old August 23, 2009, 09:14 PM   #29
Uncle Buck
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I write to the local television stations when I hear a news reporter calling them "Automatic" weapons.

I tell them that in their business of communication, using correct terminology is important and I would not want to see them get a label for poor journalism and reporting.

It seems to work because I have not heard them refer to the "Automatic hand guns" or an "Automatic machine pistol" or (Boy this really chaps my backside) an "automatic pistol" in awhile.

To me an Automatic is one that fires more than one round when the trigger is pulled. A semi-automatic is one were the shooter must pull the trigger each time he/she wants to fire.

I guess it all boils down to when we are finished speaking, is the point you or I made, clear and understandable.
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Old August 23, 2009, 09:21 PM   #30
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Now people that jump up and down screaming "IT’S A MAGAZINE NOT A CLIP" are unnecessary. Why scare people off. A fair better way is to answer their question then explain the difference. Our goal here is clear concise communication.
But I just thought of something else that annoys me- Video game/movie guns.
It’s Desert Eagle not DEagle. Likewise Remington 700 and R700
A Desert Eagle is NOT the most powerful weapon in existence
(Off Topic: Gun names in COD 4 annoy me so much that I found a Mod that corrects the names. If you want it PM me.)
An FN FAL and an M-21 both use 7.62 NATO. Just because the M-21 is a sniper’s rifle doesn’t mean that it has more range/power.
Mags need to be reloaded. There is no box mag that holds 100 rounds that I can think of.
A Garand cannot easily be reloaded halfway through a clip.
Most military weapons aren’t LH eject. In fact, I think the Steyr AUG is the only one. Why would you fire a LH ejecting gun RH anyway?
The movie “Wanted”. If you have any knowledge of physics or firearms it becomes an action-comedy (And not a good one at that)

Sorry I got a bit off terminology but it sort of snowballed from DEagle. They all tick me off though.
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Old August 23, 2009, 10:33 PM   #31
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Quote:
But I just thought of something else that annoys me- Video game/movie guns.
It’s Desert Eagle not DEagle. Likewise Remington 700 and R700
In these instances, particularly in video games, the names will be changed slightly to avoid trademark issues. For instance, R700 is probably due to the fact that they didn't want to have to call up Remington and get their permission to use their name in the video game. Hence the Desert Eagle becomes the Deagle, the FN P90 becomes the RCP90, etc.

As for the rest of it.,...my guess that was done for balance reasons. In other words, they ignored the gun's actual relative power and changed them to make each gun have a reason to be used. If they didn't do this, nobody would use anything but one or two of the guns in the game and the rest would never be utilized. It has little to do with ignorance and much to do with game mechanics.

Last edited by Regolith; August 23, 2009 at 11:14 PM.
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Old August 23, 2009, 11:10 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by peetzakilla
...some poor newb gets replies that are nasty and arrogant because he "misuses" the word.
I agree that's wrong. So let's those of us who know set a good example by using proper terminology -- in a low key, but consistent, manner.
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Old August 23, 2009, 11:20 PM   #33
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in just the last year that I've been on TFL wherein some poor newb gets replies that are nasty and arrogant because he "misuses" the word.
I don't advocate that.
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Old August 23, 2009, 11:21 PM   #34
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in just the last year that I've been on TFL wherein some poor newb gets replies that are nasty and arrogant because he "misuses" the word.
I don't advocate that. We don't advocate that.
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Old August 23, 2009, 11:44 PM   #35
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I know it's not advocated and I'm sure the mods all do their level best to stop it, but it happens, and fairly often.

That's why I don't worry much about terminology unless it's something that can be dangerous.

I don't care if it's a "clip" or a "magazine". I don't generally care if someone says "caliber" when I know that they mean "cartridge".

What I'm saying is that maybe we should think a bit about why we're so caught up in terminology. Yes, there are very good reasons to be particular at certain times. Other times, regardless of intentions, it comes across as a great big "You're an idiot and I know more than you do."

That's why we have to be careful.
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Old August 24, 2009, 12:53 AM   #36
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I think we should assume people are ignorant of terms not lazy. If someone says bullet when they mean cartridge it may well be they have been bought up with that term and never heard the correct one. It may take someone to POLITELY tell them there is a difference between them to make them realise that.
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Old August 24, 2009, 03:21 AM   #37
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yeah

Not to mention your rifle isn't your gun.....Remember the clip from Full Metal Jacket....."This is my rifle, This is my gun, This is for Killing, This is for Fun"
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Old August 24, 2009, 04:04 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by eclipsetactical
Not to mention your rifle isn't your gun.....Remember the clip from Full Metal Jacket....."This is my rifle, This is my gun, This is for Killing, This is for Fun"
Its called a magaz... oh, never mind!

Regarding weapon terminology in the news, it isn't very far fetched to assume they use the words they do because of the imagery associated with the words. If a bad guy robs a bank and they can find a use for words like "assault rifle", "automatic pistol" and "home arsenal", then of course they will. It will sell them more.

What is most important is legislatory works, like motions, where the use of correct terminology can mean heaven or hell for any side.

For example, in Sweden we have a law regulating non-licensed firearms based on type of propellant. The effect of this is that airguns powered by CO2 are allowed, but not the ones by propane, even though the latter usually has a far lower power. Since propane is the standard for action games like airsoft, we have a major problem where the police don't do anything because traditional propane based airsoft pistols are weaker than their CO2 counterparts, but the customs seize any they find, because they have no black on white saying they are allowed. A law regulating non-licensed guns based on muzzle velocity and projectile weight would make this issue a non-issue in notime.

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Old August 24, 2009, 08:38 AM   #39
Bud Helms
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That's why I don't worry much about terminology unless it's something that can be dangerous.

I don't care if it's a "clip" or a "magazine". I don't generally care if someone says "caliber" when I know that they mean "cartridge".
Well, many of us do, even though we don't make a big deal about it everytime we see it. You can't separate "terminology" from "communications". Know the difference between "jargon" and "terminology".

I completely understand your not being phased by terminology, if you understand what is meant. So, when you went to work this morning, did you steer your vehicle with a firm grip on the windshield? You know what I mean. Right?
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Old August 24, 2009, 09:23 AM   #40
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I'm not one of those guys who's going to give anyone a hard time about calling a magazine a "clip". When was the last time a gun was manufactured that used stripper clips anyway?

As far as the use of the word "auto" - I admit, I don't like when anyone refers to a semi-automatic handgun as an "automatic" or "auto". This is archaic and confusing because of full auto carbines, and handguns. I actually prefer the 1930's era term of "self-loader" to semi-auto, but will settle for semi-auto to describe self-loading handguns, rifles, and carbines.

Other terms that I feel are archaic and need to be revised:
Double Action, Single Action, Single Action Only, Double Action / Single Action. Instead, how about:

1. Striker fired for all hamerless semi-autos
2. Trigger-cock for semi-auto guns that are da/sa
3. Squeeze-cock - for HK P7M13
4. Short-trigger instead of single action.

You can keep double action and single action designations for revovlers, because they make more sense.
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Old August 24, 2009, 11:02 AM   #41
Brian Pfleuger
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I completely understand your not being phased by terminology, if you understand what is meant. So, when you went to work this morning, did you steer your vehicle with a firm grip on the windshield? You know what I mean. Right?
Ah, see now, therein lies a bit of a twist. You bring up another one of the reasons why I tend not to be so phased by terminology.

Every normal, adult human being in America knows the "standard" parts of a car. Although, even with cars there are differences.... is it a "gas pedal" or the "accelerator", for instance. Personally, I've always thought that it should be either the "accelerator" or "air pedal", since it has nothing to do with gas.... but I digress.....

Firearms are different than cars for one very significant reason, namely that far fewer people have experience with them and it is not uncommon for an individuals first experience with a gun to be well into adulthood.

So, if you've been around guns for 30 years and you don't know a sear from a trigger, well yeah, I might call you on it. If it's pretty clear that you're new to this, or I'm not sure if you are, then I'm going to let it go, unless it's a dangerous thing and then I'm pretty likely to take it to PM. Nobody likes to be corrected in public.

I have PM'ed several newbies with suggestions that they change the wording in a thread. Always they have either thanked me or just done it without replying. The same CAN NOT be said about those who start an in-thread urination match about "clip" vs "magazine".

See my own thread in the reloading section for yet another reason that I feel this way. I've been shooting since I was 5 and working on my own guns since I was old enough to buy them..... but I don't know the proper names for the parts of a cartridge case. Why? How could I be so.... ignorant? Well, because I've never dealt with it before. Never reloaded, never cared. Do I feel a little sheepish about not knowing something so "basic"? Yep, but I'm glad the responses have been gentle too.

Now imagine if I never touched a gun until I was 20, or even 40, and people are coming down on me because I call it a "clip"....


Quote:
Know the difference between "jargon" and "terminology".
Jargon: Words that are used in a discussion between "insiders" of a particular topic.

Terminology: Words that are used when an "insider" wishes to impress an "outsider" with his or her whiz-bang knowledge of a topic.
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Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; August 24, 2009 at 11:14 AM.
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Old August 24, 2009, 01:28 PM   #42
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Terminology: Words that are used when an "insider" wishes to impress an "outsider" with his or her whiz-bang knowledge of a topic.
That's one take. I think that's an exaggeration.
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Old August 24, 2009, 02:00 PM   #43
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Sure someone may not know the correct terminology for something. But not one of us is too old to learn a new word now and then. We certainly all know more words now than we did when we were born.

Personally, I like some accuracy and precision in communication. I like learning the correct names for things, and I find that I am learning new things all the time. If you know the proper terms, I'd be grateful if you'd help me learn by setting an example and using correct terminology.

Sure we may understand the other guy even if he misuses a word or two. But then again, we might not. Or we might even think we understand, but really don't; and that's even worse.
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Old August 24, 2009, 02:50 PM   #44
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I suppose that my position can be summed up like this:

Proper terminology is important, or at least can be. However, just as important is the tact we use in the correction of those who are not using the "proper" terminology.

Example:

(Newb)-Hey, I'm new to this sport but I've got a Glock 19 and I really love shooting. I'm taking a class and I need to get some more clips. Where's the best place to get them?

(Response1): First of all, they're magazines not clips. If you don't know that then you should put the gun down and step away slowly.... then go read something. Second, do a search man, this has been asked a hundred times.

(Response2): Glad you like the gun. The G19 is very popular. Personally, I trust xyz.com. I've ordered a number of magazines from them.

BTW, the accepted term is "magazine" instead of "clip". XYZ.com also has a good article explaining the differences, while you're there.

Good luck with your class!


Response 1 is FAR too typical.
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Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; August 24, 2009 at 03:09 PM.
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Old August 24, 2009, 04:04 PM   #45
eclipsetactical
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Clips Vs. Magazines

Here is an explaination by a writer on the internet the difference in a clip and magazine.

http://everything2.com/title/Clip+vs.+magazine

To be honest I think the 2 terms have went through an evolution of meanings. Magazine now seems to be the more accepted term by the knowledgable gun owning public below the age of 50.....I am generalizing the age a bit because I really dont know where to pin point it but here is the point. I know many educated gun owners that are a bit older than me that call handgun magazines, clips. These range from the general public, to decorated retired police officers, to combat vets, etc......Even when I was in my CCDW class I remember the ex police officer of 25 years teaching it specifically saying magazines or clips. So that being said I think the usage of the word clip in the place of magazize does not nessisarily have any bearing on the gun education level of the user.

Just my opinion.
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Old August 24, 2009, 05:54 PM   #46
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Well, in the spirit of word pecking,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon5NZ
There's no such thing as a sniper rifle. There are rifles used by military snipers though.
Well i think ther is.

Quote:
Quote from Wikipedia.
"In military and law enforcement terminology, a sniper rifle is a rifle used to ensure accurate placement of bullets at longer ranges than small arms. A typical sniper rifle is built for optimal levels of accuracy, fitted with a telescopic sight and chambered for a military centerfire cartridge. The term is often used in the media to describe any type of accurized firearm fitted with a telescopic sight that is employed against human targets."Wikipedia/Sniper Rifle
At the very least we can call a rifle purposely designed to hunt snipe, a sniper? Rifle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon5NZ
Assault Rifle (as defined by the media, anti's and the AWB) should really be Military Style Semi Automatic or something similiar.
A assult rifle is just that, an assult rifle. Could you be thinking of "assult wepons"?


Last but not least:
(My highlight)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dahermit
I do not think that "automatic" is the correct reference for any fire arm that must have a distinct separate single pull of the trigger for subsequent shots.
Are you thinking of somthing like this?:


I know its just a typo but i could not help it. Ha ha ha.



BTW: You could probertly tear my spelling and grammar apart, but pleas dont. It would be sutch a long post. (Check my location)
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Old August 24, 2009, 06:17 PM   #47
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Quote:
That's why I don't worry much about terminology unless it's something that can be dangerous.

I don't care if it's a "clip" or a "magazine". I don't generally care if someone says "caliber" when I know that they mean "cartridge".
I had this conversation last week with some friends. Someone wondered if we just shouldn't give up and accept the fact that new shooters are going to call magazines "clips."

The answer is flatly "no." We're professionals, and the correct terminology does mean something, even if it seems like we're chasing windmills sometimes.

Frankly, if the zombies are coming, I'll have the Garand, and when I call for a clip, I expect to be thrown an En Bloc, not a box magazine
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Old August 24, 2009, 06:28 PM   #48
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Ha ha ha ha.
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Old August 24, 2009, 06:58 PM   #49
eclipsetactical
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Zombies

I still I guess haven't got the whole zombies are coming thing. People talk about that a lot in relation to guns anymore. I think we have been watching TV a little too much. I mean I love the zombie movies as much as the next guy, but definately have no belief that anything of the sort is going to happen like it does in the movies. I guess if it ever did I will be eating my words but it is just a bunch of hog wash that really has no place even near the word gun or even discussed in the same thread as guns.
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Old August 24, 2009, 07:11 PM   #50
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I put the mag vs. clip discussion into the same category as the Enter key on your keyboard. It was never meant to be called an enter key but public demand finally made IBM put the word Enter on it. Beofe then it had been called Return, New Line, marked with just and arrow and even a Do It key. Now most people call it an Enter key although it has nothing to do with entering anything.
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