The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 20, 2009, 10:07 PM   #1
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 9,553
Law of Gun Fighting

Stolen from another sight:

Bring a gun. Preferably two guns. Bring friends with guns.

Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice.

Only hits count

The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.

If your shooting stance is good, you're not moving fast enough or using cover correctly.

If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.

If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, or running.

Always cheat; Always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.

Have a plan.

Have a backup plan because the first one won't work.

Flank your advesary when possible and protect your own.

Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.

The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you're going to get.

Someday someone may kill you with your own gun. Make sure they have to beat you to death with it because its empty.
__________________
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old August 20, 2009, 10:20 PM   #2
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,069
Kraigwy, Old but true...
The only thing I can add is... you are a dollar down if the opponent knows he is in a gun fight...
Keeping my friends close and enemies closer really sets the pace....
Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old August 20, 2009, 10:36 PM   #3
Kyo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2009
Posts: 897
I don't agree with keeping my enemies closer.
Kyo is offline  
Old August 20, 2009, 10:37 PM   #4
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
The idea of keeping your enemies closer...

... is to keep tabs on them. When you can't see what they are doing, they are more dangerous.

It doesn't mean you invite them over for fava beans and a nice chianti...
MLeake is offline  
Old August 20, 2009, 10:42 PM   #5
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 18,571
First rule of gun fighting.

If you can avoid a gun fight then avoid it. There is no better possible outcome than being where bullets are not flying.
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old August 20, 2009, 10:56 PM   #6
SRT
Junior Member
 
Join Date: July 5, 2001
Posts: 3
The Law sounds like the sage and vintage preaching of Brother Clint Smith!
SRT is offline  
Old August 20, 2009, 10:59 PM   #7
BlackFeather
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2009
Location: West Coast
Posts: 450
Quote:
It doesn't mean you invite them over for fava beans and a nice chianti...
I disagree...
__________________
"Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men." - Miyamoto Musashi

[Insert random irrelevant religious quote here]
BlackFeather is offline  
Old August 20, 2009, 11:04 PM   #8
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,150
Quote:
First rule of gun fighting.

If you can avoid a gun fight then avoid it. There is no better possible outcome than being where bullets are not flying.
__________________
That's true enough, but the training many of us have gone thru applies when avoidance is no longer an option, which is what, I believe, is the context for the above mentioned rules.

Quote:
When you can't see what they are doing, they are more dangerous.
Yes, for example, in certain political situations, you make your chief political rival Secty of State and then strip her of power by appointing special representatives to handle those foreign affairs that would normally be her job. Brilliant move.

In other contexts, say, where there could be physical danger, you wouldn't want them near you.

Clever phrases don't always take different contexts into account.

Just my thoughts on the matter.
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old August 20, 2009, 11:14 PM   #9
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,069
Okay, I can learn to eat "fava beans" like I never missed a plateful. Yep, i could eat boiled bat wings so long as it has my "enemies" gathered about. Serious as a bicuit and gravy heart attack... You gotta plan it out. Very few daily contact type folk know one tenth about me as ya'll TFL members... I mean this serious... I roll my eyes several times per day about me and my family...
Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old August 20, 2009, 11:40 PM   #10
MLeake
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
Blackfeather caught it...

... but the "fava beans and a nice chianti" is what Hannibal Lecter chose to go with an enemy he ate for dinner.

Sorry, couldn't resist the joke.
MLeake is offline  
Old August 21, 2009, 08:33 AM   #11
Sefner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 24, 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 769
There is a set of motivationals with these



Here is link to the index:

http://dsfv.schnuerpel.eu/rules/
Sefner is offline  
Old August 21, 2009, 09:20 AM   #12
Madcap_Magician
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 13, 2009
Location: MN
Posts: 652
First rule of gun fights is to be somewhere else when they start.
Madcap_Magician is offline  
Old August 21, 2009, 09:36 AM   #13
AirForceShooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 21, 2005
Location: Sarasota (sort of) Florida
Posts: 1,186
If you draw it, Shoot it.

AFS
AirForceShooter is offline  
Old August 21, 2009, 11:22 AM   #14
OldMarksman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2008
Posts: 2,030
Quote:
If you draw it, Shoot it.
Careful with that--someone may believe it.

Do not draw unless you are justified--state laws vary. Do not shoot unless the justification remains.

If the threat dissipates, do not shoot.

Back to the "rules"--they sound to me like a prescription for a tactical encounter by sworn professionals. A civilian may protect himself from imminent danger when immediately necessary, and in most places he or she may lawfully equip himself or herself to do it, but he is not permitted to "bring" a gun "to a gunfight."

The best strategy is non-attendance.

Failing that, the next step is to produce the weapon when and only when justified and very quickly.

If that does not work, shoot effectively before it's too late--again, assuming justification. Know the law and be able to shoot.

And do not hit anyone at whom you did not intend to aim.

Probably only the last two apply to sworn professionals engaging a miscreant already doing violent harm.
OldMarksman is offline  
Old August 21, 2009, 12:05 PM   #15
skidmark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2005
Location: Richmond VA - home of a street full of second-place trophies.
Posts: 151
"sight" is what you peer through to see if you have a chance of hitting it.

"site" is the place on the interwebs where you found whatever it is you were trying to tell us about.

This message has been brought to you by The Spelling Nazi. (See Rule 12)

stay safe.

skidmark
skidmark is offline  
Old August 21, 2009, 06:54 PM   #16
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,577
The first rule of the rules or laws of gunfighting is that the rules are pretty much garbage, depending on one's situation. Most of the rules, aren't rules at all, but somebody's nifty little cutesy sayings.

Bring a gun. Preferably two guns. Bring friends with guns.
I ain't going if I know there is going to be a fight.

Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice.
Let me get back with you after the OKC Pharmacy shooting matter is resolved.

Only hits count
No, misses are often quite effective but can't be relied upon to matter.

The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.
Not if you are talking about the bullets being shot at you.

If your shooting stance is good, you're not moving fast enough or using cover correctly.
Cute, but hardly true as alluded to in Sefner's post.

If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.
Long guns are difficult to use effectively in extremely tight quarters and hence are not always the preferred best weapon.

If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, or running.
Complete nonsense, especially if you are outnumbered, behind cover, hiding, and out of ammo.

Always cheat; Always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.
The OKC Phramacist cheated. He ain't going to win battle even if he did "win" the fight.

Have a plan.
A nice general idea that hardly works for every situation.

Have a backup plan because the first one won't work.
Given changing circumstances, it is hard it enough to have 1 plan for every potential circumstance, much less two.

Flank your advesary when possible and protect your own.
If you are protecting one flank by yourself, then it is very tough to protect the other.

Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.
This all depends on how bad the situation goes to hell.

The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you're going to get.
Not necessarily.

Someday someone may kill you with your own gun. Make sure they have to beat you to death with it because its empty.
That assumes you have correct and total control of the multiples of guns you were bringing to this fight as noted above. The more guns you bring, the more power you have but also the more power you must fight to keep within your realm of control.

This was added later...
If you draw it, Shoot it.
This is just an absolutely stupid statement.

Since the claim is being made that some of us can't avoid situations where there will be fights, then if there was going to be a first rule of a gun fight, I would say that it should be to NOT GET SHOT.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old August 21, 2009, 07:37 PM   #17
Edward429451
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2000
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 9,494
(Have you ever agreed with anyone about anything?)

Damn. LOL.
Edward429451 is offline  
Old August 21, 2009, 07:59 PM   #18
w_houle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 29, 2007
Location: Junction City, KS
Posts: 1,389
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa
First rule of gun fighting.

If you can avoid a gun fight then avoid it. There is no better possible outcome than being where bullets are not flying.
I believe Sun Tsu said that there is nothing more difficult than armed conflict.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sefner
There is a set of motivationals with these
Just so long as you don't try to apply Rule #34
__________________
How could you have a slogan like "freedom is slavery" when the concept of freedom has been abolished?

Last edited by w_houle; August 21, 2009 at 08:01 PM. Reason: ****| ^u^ |****
w_houle is offline  
Old August 21, 2009, 09:37 PM   #19
kraigwy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 16, 2008
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 9,553
I think too many missed the point of my post.

IT WAS POSTED AS A JOKE
__________________
Kraig Stuart
CPT USAR Ret
USAMU Sniper School Oct '78
Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071
kraigwy is offline  
Old August 21, 2009, 10:42 PM   #20
Skan21
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 29, 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 463
Don't worry man! I thought it was funny anyway. And I've actually BEEN in firefights, so I actually know how true most of those are.
__________________
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."- Robert Heinlein

Some of you guys need to trade in a few of those Safe Queens and see if you can get a good deal on a Sense of Humor.- Me
Skan21 is offline  
Old August 21, 2009, 11:04 PM   #21
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,150
Quote:
The first rule of the rules or laws of gunfighting is that the rules are pretty much garbage, depending on one's situation. Most of the rules, aren't rules at all, but somebody's nifty little cutesy sayings.
In order to criticize what was basically meant as humor, you've completely changed the context of many of the "rules"----to what purpose?
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old August 21, 2009, 11:40 PM   #22
Dr Raoul Duke
Junior member
 
Join Date: August 8, 2009
Location: On the Left Coast of North America
Posts: 104
This whole thing is "Mall Ninja" horse apples, because there are no "laws" or "rules" when it comes to a gun fight, other than the basic one of "have a gun". The rest is just silly.

Dr. Raoul Duke
Gonzo Forever
Dr Raoul Duke is offline  
Old August 22, 2009, 12:10 AM   #23
OldShooter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 28, 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 846
Rules

Kraigway, I got it of course and I've seen it posted before and enjoyed it every time. Some people take themselves way too seriously, no matter how many thousand posts they have to their credit.
OldShooter is offline  
Old August 22, 2009, 12:29 AM   #24
Skan21
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 29, 2009
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 463
Quote:
This whole thing is "Mall Ninja" horse apples, because there are no "laws" or "rules" when it comes to a gun fight, other than the basic one of "have a gun".
Not to beat on ya Doc, but that's not true. There really are rules. I've applied most of those rules. I just didn't know someone had made them "rules".

1. Bring a gun. Preferably two guns. Bring friends with guns.
In the Army, I was taught not to actually engage in a fight unless we outnumbered the enemy 3 to 1. Approximately of course. And everyone in my squad had guns. and lots of ammo. And generally a pointy steel thing, mine was a CRKT Ultima, just in case.

2.If your shooting stance is good, you're not moving fast enough or using cover correctly.
True. Covering fire is your friend, and I tried as hard as I could to stay un-perforated. I didn't set up perfectly every time. I mostly missed. But that's war.

3.If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.
My M-4 was not overly long, and I effectively cleared houses with one. Same with a SAW. Long guns, unless you are in a crawl space, are your friends.

4.Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.
Nov 19 2005. 2 soldiers died because we ignored this rule, once. We never did it again.

5.Always cheat; Always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.
If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'. The guy who made this set of rules wasn't talking about a CCW cowboy. He was talking about combat.

6.Someday someone may kill you with your own gun. Make sure they have to beat you to death with it because its empty.
That's what 3 round burst is for. Damn sure nobody is capturing me. Back in '05 captured people were getting their heads cut off.

7. If you draw it, shoot it.
No defense for that. That's just stupid.
__________________
"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life."- Robert Heinlein

Some of you guys need to trade in a few of those Safe Queens and see if you can get a good deal on a Sense of Humor.- Me
Skan21 is offline  
Old August 22, 2009, 05:08 AM   #25
BlackFeather
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2009
Location: West Coast
Posts: 450
Oh come on there is /b/tards here too?...cant escape dammit... and yeah ofcourse I got the fava bean joke... its a classic... aside from the jokes... its a joke.
__________________
"Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men." - Miyamoto Musashi

[Insert random irrelevant religious quote here]
BlackFeather is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14415 seconds with 7 queries