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Old August 28, 2009, 06:13 PM   #101
amd6547
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Two different situations, really. The internal safety on S&W revolvers have failed, and locked up the revolver. The BHP mag disconnect has not.
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Old August 28, 2009, 06:14 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiddletown post #76
...[Poseidon28] outlined some very valid reason why amongst folks knowledgeable about guns or willing to learn removing a magazine disconnect should not matter. BUT in a trial, you would be trying to make your pitch to folks unsophisticated in the ways of weapon craft. Many will intuitively react with horror at the very thought of someone actually, voluntarily turning off a safety device on a lethal weapon.
I know **** happens but don't forget that your lawyer gets to participate in jury selection too.

Look, I don't want to sound as if I would be confident in going to court in any shooting case. I just want to say that does not look that bad, there are factors on the side of removing the safety, and I do not think it is all that clear that the jury would side with the prosecutor....but hey, I live in the southland and the jurors would come from the southland...............also I like my series 70. - PigPen-
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Old August 28, 2009, 06:39 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Recoiljunkie44
..Personally rather be a armed citizen than an unarmed subject ...
Mas really beat me to it, but I also don't see that as the choice. There are plenty of guns suitable for self defense that won't tempt to to tinker with them. And BHPs have been used successfully with the magazine disconnect in place for a very long time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MLeake
...The defense witness could point out that removing a disconnector safety from a BHP is a fairly common practice, to improve trigger pull and feel.

The defense witness could point out that the majority of semi-automatic pistols on the market do NOT come with disconnector safeties, and so the modification to the BHP would have brought it into line with the majority of pistols in the US market.

The defense witness could point out that the only scenario in which a disconnector safety would come into play as a safety would be with a magazine removed, which is NOT how the defendant was carrying the weapon.

The defense witness could point out that while some people claim the intent of the disconnector safety is so that one can drop the magazine if overpowered, to disable the gun, that's a bit of a reach; the magazine can be retrieved in short order. The real point of the disconnector safety was to prevent accidents during disassembly and cleaning, neither of which are factors in a defensive shooting....
Those are indeed the defense arguments. But as both Mas and I have said, they are nice, technical arguments of interest to people who have some knowledge of, or interest in, guns. But your jury is unlikely to include such people.

Your jury will most likely be made up of people who know little about guns, except what they think they've gleaned from TV and the movies, and they probably care little about the technical working of these infernal machines of death and destruction.

So you're much better off if you don't have to make them because the subject never comes up. And the only way to assure that the subject never comes up is to not disable a safety device.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PigPen
I know **** happens but don't forget that your lawyer gets to participate in jury selection too.
Yes, the defendant's lawyer does participate in jury selection. Here's how it works --

You start with a group of people. The prosecution and defense each asks questions of the prospective jurors, and each side gets to challenge (i. e., have removed) people he doesn't want on the jury. Challenges can be either for cause, i. e., when a prospective juror has expressed or demonstrated a clear prejudice, or peremptory, i. e., without cause (just because I feel like it). Each side has a specified number of peremptory challenges.

Now, while going through voire dire, the process of questioning prospective jurors, the prosecutor will be using his peremptory challenges to remove anyone who is an IPSC competitor or who has gone to Gunsite or has a gun, etc. And indeed, the prosecutor might even be able to successfully challenge some of those folks for cause and not have to use some of his peremptory challenges. (My wife, as a prospective juror, was once successfully challenged for cause by the defense in an armed robbery trial when she said that she was an NRA member and had strong negative feelings about someone misusing a gun for criminal activity.)

In the meantime, the defense will be kicking off the jury the Brady Campaign contributors and those who think guns should be banned.

So when this process is all done, who is going to be left on the jury -- a bunch of folks who are middle of the road, fence sitters, people not necessarily virulently anit-gun, but probably with no special knowledge of, or interest in guns. At least a few, and maybe many, of your jurors may have never even fired a gun. They may be willing to grant that someone could properly defend his life using a gun. But too many technical arguments about the attributes and mechanisms of guns -- how they work and what qualities are tactically desirable -- will cause their eyes to glaze over like the Easter ham.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PigPen
...there are factors on the side of removing the safety...
But those are "gunny" factors. They are not "Suzi Soccermom" factors.

Last edited by Frank Ettin; August 29, 2009 at 12:14 AM.
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Old August 28, 2009, 06:54 PM   #104
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Most law enforcment and ordinary citzens wouldn't know if the hi power had been changed in anyway if they wer to take it apart and look anyways. I personally do not see in difference if John Browning himself had just not added this it still consist of a the saftey on the slide.
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Old August 28, 2009, 07:56 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Recoiljunkie44
...Most law enforcment and ordinary citzens wouldn't know if the hi power had been changed in anyway if they wer to take it apart and look anyways....
If you are involved in a shooting, your gun will be taken from you as evidence. It will be examined, and if the magazine disconnect has been disabled, that will be found out. As Mas wrote in another thread on another board (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost....5&postcount=45)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Massad Ayoob
It's standard protocol for the gun involved in a shooting to go to the Firearms and Toolmark Examiners in the crime lab, who early on determine whether the pistol is in "proper working order" and whether all safety devices on it are functional....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Recoiljunkie44
...I personally do not see in difference if John Browning himself had just not added this it still consist of a the saftey on the slide...
I guess you really haven't been following the discussion. In any case, suit yourself.
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Old August 29, 2009, 12:47 AM   #106
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I think this is separating into an equal protection, 14th amendment argument.

Those who are rich,

"Buy another gun, protect assets, minimize risk by using your check book, have lawyer on retainer."

Those who are poor:

"Why do I have to have a gun I don't want for self-protection, and can't afford, just because a rather rich retired attorney, and another rich 'consultant' who makes 3000 dollars an hour at trial, tells me to get one? It's a lot cheaper to just pull the mag disconnect, and, since I know the town I live in, the chances are my equals on the jury are going to understand. Protect assets?
What assets? My Browning is it, and my car."

Plus, as I've said before, and it's been ignored, those who are giving this advice have been conditioned by living in bleeding heart liberal states, not Kansas, where shooting and hunting is a bit more of the normal day then it is in San Francisco, or New York. Brainwashing occurs...

Mas presumes Kansas has this lab:

"Firearms and Toolmark Examiners in the crime lab"

Does every place in Kansas have one?

On a more serious note, considering that even in North Carolina, police have taken firearms, and failed to return them, the gun you use for
protection should be one you don't mind throwing away. If the police take it, you may not see it again for a long time, and, when you do get it back, it may have intentionally rusted, or neglected, resulting in rust.

Mosin Nagant, surplus CZ's come to mind for home protection, and, for carry, the cheapest plastic gun you can carry that goes bang everytime, and you like shooting.

One has to ask the original poster if he uses the gun for carry, and shooting 4 legged varmits as well as 2, on a regular basis. Do you have a feral hog problem? etc.

Last edited by Poseidon28; August 29, 2009 at 12:52 AM.
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Old August 29, 2009, 04:22 PM   #107
Mas Ayoob
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Hi, Poseidon:

Taking your points in no particular order:

Neither Fiddletown nor I are telling folks to buy guns they can't afford. We're just explaining the aftermath dangers of removing safety devices. Doesn't cost the guy with the stock Browning anything to leave the disconnector in. (And thanks for the raise! 3K an hour...sigh.)

Please don't believe that the attacks we're discussing occur only in "bleeding heart liberal states." It's not that cut and dried. Unscrupulous arguments in court, like crime, are without boundaries. In your example, Kansas, if things were really that pro-gun there, Kansans would have gotten shall-issue concealed carry a lot sooner than they actually did.

As to the crime labs, even if the shooting takes place in Mayberry, it won't be Barney Fife doing the investigation: it'll be state police detectives from the major crimes squad, if the small department doesn't have its own people to do it, or experienced investigators from a large county agency. They will have access to well-equipped, well-staffed state and regional crime labs.
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Old August 29, 2009, 08:13 PM   #108
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Hi Mas

I was hinting that the original poster had a real use and reason for the gun, hunting varmits. That's it's primary, and, he hopes only use ever. This requires accuracy, and, that means a good to excellent trigger pull, etc.

My comments are that due to your area of expertise, and, seeing so many such cases, you and Fiddletown are now giving advice, broad wide sweeping advice, that may or may not be true in his particular place and time.

Needless to say, with our current government system, corruption is every time and place, so, I agree with your comments.

As I said again:
SD arms should be something you plan on using once, and never getting back...for the reasons you stated, Mas.

Whats going on with the Florida single action shooting? Charges?
Anything?
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Old August 30, 2009, 12:33 AM   #109
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Good to hear that you agree with me, Poseidon.

In never occurred to me that the Original Poster was the first varmint hunter to use a Browning Hi-Power for that task. It's a case of "live and learn," I guess.

What Florida single actions shooting are you talking about, exactly?

Cordially,
Mas
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Old August 30, 2009, 02:51 PM   #110
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Feral dog, feral cat, feral raccoon, mountain lions, bears, etc. We city folk forget there are a LOT of reasons to carry a firearm in the country. Just got back.

Friend's house in Norcal, way out in the sticks. You go out at night, it's very quiet, and, pitch black. The dogs start barking and it's most likely a mountain lion. We were going deer hunting, and plans changed, had to leave. Driving out of the drive way, a big, beautiful 8 point buck is looking at me in the headlights.
He turns, and wanders off.

Called my friend, but, he'd turned off the phone. Deer was found dead, next morning, hit by a car or truck on the main road. Good reason to carry any gun, put down injured animals.

Anyway, in Florida recently a guy shot and killed a store robber who had shot, and tried to kill the owner of the store. It was reported he was open carrying in Florida, which is illegal, IIRC.

I may have to concede that a target trigger might be a bit much for a SD gun.

Just got back a couple guns, both with very good triggers. It's kind of easy to double one, and, just putting your finger on the trigger, under stress, and it could go off. You REALLY better be well trained...
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Old August 30, 2009, 04:19 PM   #111
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Yes I have used my Hi power on many accounts to dispact varmits around the farm! Commonly Rabbits and coons but occasionly a possum! I understand to the fact that you have to realize the gun that is used in concealed carry may be lost after a self defense shooting! I have bought a couple other guns to replace the Hi power for this purpose! However I have this bad habit of goin back to the HI power! I purchased a Mauser 90 da which is a double action copy of the Hi power because I figured I would like it, and it was ok but a month later I still went back to the HI power! Maybe just have to keep trying till I find one to replace it!
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Old August 31, 2009, 12:36 AM   #112
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Mas, you need to get out more, in particular, into the country. You carry a gun, and, when the varmit presents itself, you take care of business. You can end up using a .357 on a gopher, a 44 magnum on a crow, it's just what you've got at the time. 9mm makes a decent varmit round, if you are going to eat the rabbit, etc. Kills, but not a ton of meat damage, and, though I have a 9, I've never shot a rabbit with one. Would guess not enough resistance to get an HP to really work.

For what it's worth, I'd seriously consider a revolver for CCW out in the country. You can carry heavier bullets, at more velocity, for larger then human animals. Plus, a revolver seems more civil. You have to aim, pull the hammer back slowly and quietly, or you spook your varmit, finger carefully in the trigger, and pull slowly. A bit different from a Grab and spray, like the Glock, or, even a SA semi-auto like The Browning. The only animal I can think of that would require a grab and spray pray type approach would be feral hogs...
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Old August 31, 2009, 06:40 AM   #113
amd6547
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Shooting a Browning HiPower accurately is identical to what you have described.
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Old August 31, 2009, 10:37 AM   #114
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Poseidon,

Apparently you don't have black bears, coyotes, or feral dog packs in your neck of the woods.

FWIW, I practice with my woods revolvers in DA mode. SA is great for deliberate hunting, but if something jumps out at me I suspect it will be all I can do to draw and pull. So, that's what I practice.

After all, I have rifles and shotguns for hunting.

Cheers,

M
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Old August 31, 2009, 08:08 PM   #115
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Let's see. Deer on the back porch, turkeys, coons, skunk last night, dogs, cats,
geese, crows, mountain lions, but, no black bear in recent memory, though the place I was Saturday certainly does. Coyotes and foxes? Forget it, no chance.
Closest I got, even with bait is 50 yards. Trying to take pictures? 150 yards.
Fox thought the camera was a gun and was gone in a blink of an eye, one big jump, about 10 feet in the air, and gone.

If you practice, the first shot out of a SA is one of, if not the fastest of all guns. Truth is, if they really want to eat you, a bear or a mountain lion is going to be on you before you even know it's there. Good news is that's rare. Wonder if Kevlar works against the original CCW, claws in paws?
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Old August 31, 2009, 08:37 PM   #116
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Quote:
the original CCW, claws in paws
More I read that, the more I like it.

But you forget, the claws of the bear do not retract.

Original Open Carry?

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Old August 31, 2009, 08:42 PM   #117
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Claws in paws is good.

Original open carry is good.

Thread drift it may be, but if it drifts in a pleasing direction, who's to complain?
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Old August 31, 2009, 08:47 PM   #118
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Quote:
Quote:
the original CCW, claws in paws
More I read that, the more I like it.

But you forget, the claws of the bear do not retract.

Original Open Carry?

Bart Noir
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Last edited by Poseidon28; August 31, 2009 at 08:49 PM. Reason: test new sig
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Old August 31, 2009, 08:49 PM   #119
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test
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Old September 1, 2009, 12:16 AM   #120
Mas Ayoob
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Sig line test passes, as far as I'm concerned.

Nothing to do with original topic, of course, but pretty cool.

FWIW,
Mas
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Old September 1, 2009, 12:26 AM   #121
Poseidon28
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I think it was Rob Leahy that said someone, maybe him, had watched a brown bear take the head off a black bear with one swipe of the paw...
Looking at those paws, it does seem feasible...

Thanks Mas. By the way, I'd be using 147 grain flat points if I was carrying a browning around a farm...

If that's the case, leave the safety. What are you going to argue?

Your honor, I took the safety off so that if one of the raccoons got a hold of my gun, they couldn't shoot me with the round in the chamber.????

Great thing about law: You can argue pretty much anything, from either side, and, depends on the facts and the jury...

Or, maybe not so great...
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Old September 1, 2009, 12:28 AM   #122
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All righty then. Allow me to wade in here

The removal or disabling of a mechanical safety device in a firearm, as indeed any other mechanical object, WILL be a factor in any legal proceedings involving that object.

How much of a factor it will be depends on the circumstances. It can be a major factor, or a minor factor.

That being further said, I have no magazine safety in my BHP, since Bill Laughridges trigger isnt built for one

WildsoicanblamehimAlaska TM

PS...I missed this

Quote:
So you're much better off if you don't have to make them because the subject never comes up. And the only way to assure that the subject never comes up is to not disable a safety device.

Well said. Thats the specific application of the famous Law...Never put yourself in a situation where you must Explain more in a Courtroom that you have to.

Last edited by Wildalaska; September 1, 2009 at 12:34 AM.
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Old September 1, 2009, 02:30 PM   #123
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Is your Browning your carry gun?
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Old September 3, 2009, 12:19 AM   #124
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Yes Because nothing fits quite like it! I have tried to replace many times with another gun but always wnd up back with the High power in hand its my go to gun for anything I ccW sometimes with it altough currently in college where i do not carry at all but its my 15 in one gun!
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Old September 3, 2009, 02:19 PM   #125
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According to Fiddlytown, Suzy soccer mom is incapable of understanding issues involved with handguns or anything else involving technical issues.
I would remind Mr Fiddlytown and his ally's that virtually every jury in the US has a broad cross section of jurors, both male and female, that need clear information to make decisions.
Apparently Mr Fiddlytown has been unsuccessful with his attempts to make his arguments with the average juror.
I would suggest using an attorney with better communication skills who can indeed explain some of these rather simple concepts to a jury.
Using the excuse that a jury made up of Suzy soccer mom and other less technically adept people as a factor in lost cases really points back to the attorney making the argument.
Many cases involve far more involved and technical testimony than removing a magazine sensing device.
A device that is used in the small minority of handguns produced today.
It is the job of any attorney to bring a jury to a real understanding of the issues.
Sorry, a magazine safety MAY make clearing a pistol safer, MAYBE.
It has nothing to do with the operation of a pistol while being used in a self defense scenario.
In fact it can be shown that a magazine sensing device can actually increase the chance a handgun will fail when being used as a self defense tool.
This will take an attorney that is familiar with the issues, and capable of presenting the case.
Difficult, but not impossible.
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