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Old August 12, 2009, 11:08 AM   #76
OldMarksman
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I think the old school western law should be in effect here... .
It probably is.

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50 years ago they would have slapped the snot out of the guy stealing the bag and shook the hands of the 2 who stopped the crime!
Think so?

Anyone know whether the laws have changed in this regard in Idaho since 1959? 1909?

Was it OK to impersonate a peace officer then?
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Old August 12, 2009, 11:12 AM   #77
M1911
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Drawing a gun on someone suspected of stealing a duffel bag, with no weapons showing? Great example of a responsible CCW holder.

As the holder of a CCW permit, there is no legal duty to intervene. In fact, intervening exposes you to far greater legal jeopardy, as shown in the OP.

I carry a gun to protect me and mine from death or grave bodily injury. Not to prevent someone from stealing a homeless guy's duffel bag.
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Old August 12, 2009, 11:34 AM   #78
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FlyGuy...

... wow... just wow.

FYI, I've intervened in beatdowns before, when I wasn't carrying. I've defended women on sidewalks and in a hotel bar from assaults in progress.

I'm also getting ready to retire as a naval aviator in the near future, and will be heading to Afghanistan in the fall as a defense contractor.

Please lecture me some more about timidity, why don't you?

If you can't see the difference between intervening when a man is getting stomped or a woman is being beaten, and a guy running away with a duffel that may have been stolen from a third party, then I think you are in for an interesting and potentially unpleasant life.

To all the guys who seem so eager to use a weapon: if you can pass the psych exams (which isn't necessarily a given) then there are plenty of open positions in the Army and Marines, or Border Patrol, or any number of PD's and SD's. My guess is that most of the chest beaters here would either fail the psych or the physical, but feel free to prove me wrong.
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Old August 12, 2009, 12:10 PM   #79
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What Harm?

What harm did it cause when CCW #1 told the thief that he was a police officer? The question is not whether or not, and I know that it is, a crime to do so. The question is what harm did it cause. No what if's, what may have happened, or any other projection. In this case and having nothing to do with the use of his CCW, what was the harm in it? I will not respond to any posts that go outside the framework of my post, or any of the nut cases on the forum!

Last edited by Sportdog; August 12, 2009 at 12:27 PM.
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Old August 12, 2009, 12:18 PM   #80
Brian Pfleuger
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What harm did it cause when CCW #1 told the thief that he was a police officer? The question is not whether or not, and I know that it is not, a crime to do so.

It most certainly is a crime to tell someone that you are a cop, especially and specifically when you are ACTING like a cop.

The "harm" is that it is a crime. There doesn't need to be more than that. It shows poor judgement and a willingness to commit illegal acts when it benefits self. Neither of those things should be combined with carrying a gun.
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Old August 12, 2009, 12:32 PM   #81
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I did,nt mean over stuff.just the big stuff like kid being taken,women
abused.mother being assaulted.person casting into my fishing spot
you know.
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Old August 12, 2009, 12:38 PM   #82
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person casting into my fishing spot
That is a capital offense in the "Ye' Ol' HogDogs supreme court"....
you can kidnap all the little tykes or duffel bags you want but yer boat, bait and hook better stay well clear of my honey holes...
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Old August 12, 2009, 12:39 PM   #83
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Saigafish

Casting into your fishing spot is a great reason!!!!
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Old August 12, 2009, 12:48 PM   #84
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thats what the club is for not hitting the fish.
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Old August 12, 2009, 02:22 PM   #85
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I've seen several instances of adults carrying a screaming, off-the-charts upset child out of a store/mall. The child is fighting with 100% of the violence and rage it has. "No! No! Don't touch me! Help, help!" Adult is moving will all due speed toward a car, where the child will be forcibly strapped in.

Could be a kidnapping. Is probably the kid's Dad. Any kidnapper is likely to be able to act embarrassed/upset/nurturing, just like a real parent. Beyond a quick racial profile (that could be his daughter), what do you do?

If you tried to stop a parent, they'd appreciate the intent (on an abstract level), but be offended and annoyed (on a practical level). Their patience would already be thin, before they had to deal with some stranger. They probably won't stop unless you attack or threaten force. Few people carry ID for the toddlers. But they probably have photos on their cell phone/in their wallet.
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Old August 12, 2009, 02:34 PM   #86
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just for arguement sake...lets say it was a young lady carrying the deposit from her store that she just opened and some thug had grabbed that and run off? she cant replace it and now she has to go out of business because of it? any less harmful if she cant feed her kids??

or what if it was the homeless persons medication? nitro pills and the stress caused a heart attck and he died...oh hes just a homeless guy right?!

just saying i still believe in old school punishment.

the law of the land so to speak. i dont need a cop to fight my battles and i sure aint gunna wait for or depend on one when it all hits the fan...oh please dont stab me until i call the polce and wait 10 minutes for them to show up!

we NEED more citizens with the balls to stand up and so NOPE NOT ON MY WATCH DIRTBAG!

NO THANKS NOT ME...better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6!
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Old August 12, 2009, 02:41 PM   #87
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just for arguement sake...
Just for arguments sake, 99% of the time you'd be better off to just replace the deposit. It's likely to be a HELL of a lot less than your legal fees.


There are an unlimited number of "just for argument" or "what-if" scenarios. They are unlimited in number and exceedingly unlikely, not to mention most loses are insured. So, gym bag? Night deposit? Purse? Sneakers? No.

Stabbing, rapes, beating, etc, MIGHT be different but, once again, if you don't see the whole thing then you don't REALLY know what is happening. Even if you guess right the "victim" can easily turn on you, immediately or in court, because you ended up shooting her husband/lover/boyfriend/whatever.


How about this "what-if"? You end up shooting a man who is attacking a women.... it turns out to be her husband.... now she's after YOU.... "You didn't have to kill him! Why!? Why did you do that!?!?"... now she comes after you with pepper spray.... "I'll kill you! I'm going to spray you and kill you with your own gun!!!"..... now what? Shoot her too?

Unlikely? Yepper, sure is.

Almost as unlikely as someone dying because their asthma medicine got stolen.
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Old August 12, 2009, 03:11 PM   #88
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Could be a kidnapping. Is probably the kid's Dad.
Or, it could be both. It happens somewhat regularly when parents divorce and there's a custody dispute. According to FBI statistics kidnappings by relatives account for about half the total number each year, and most of those involve a parent.

The kidnapping example is popular with "interventionists" here, and not without reason. But you don't know what the situation is... If I saw something like this taking place, it's one of the few cases when I might try to intervene, but not with deadly force -- I'd hate to make a kid a half-orphan, when it may be a situation that could be resolved in a way that still lets the kid grow up with two living parents...
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Old August 12, 2009, 03:22 PM   #89
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I guess if I witnessed a situation where it was plain and obvious that someone was about to become a victim of a violent and life threatening crime, I'd intervene with a weapon.

1. It would have to be an obvious, blatent life threatening situation - like a guy pointing a gun at the head of a store clerk; and

2. I would have to be confident that I have better than a 60% chance of taking the BG out without doing others harm.
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Old August 12, 2009, 03:31 PM   #90
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Just for argument's sake...

... night deposit? That's what insurance is for.

Medications? Again, call 911 or take the homeless guy to the ER. If he's already in cardiac, he probably can't explain to you that he has nitro in the bag, and I doubt that's the first place you'd look.

Some situations might justify intervention, but not use of deadly force. If you only know how to intervene by pulling a weapon, then you should stay out of those.

There are people who will also argue that if you are carrying a weapon, you should not intervene using non-deadly force, because the situation could escalate to where you might have to use deadly force to prevent the other guy from taking your weapon from you. This makes a certain degree of sense, but to me it's still situationally dependent. (I also have the advantage of a lot of years of hand to hand training, and a decent sized frame to back it up) In general, though, it's safer to intervene by noting details and calling 911.

If and only if I think somebody is going to come to some immediate harm am I going to get physically involved (with regard to confrontations).

Note: While we're talking about civic duty and all, I have pulled over and assisted victims of auto wrecks, and helped get both people and a dog out of burning buildings. (Prior to arrival of EMS and fire; once they are on scene, stay out of their way.) I've helped bring back a swimmer who went too far for her capabilities out into a lake, which wasn't fun because I'd seen gators in that lake the week prior. I've helped a stranded elderly couple with a broken down vehicle on an interstate. My parents raised me to behave in that manner, by behaving in that manner, themselves. That is more their idea of civic responsibility than pulling guns on possible bad guys would be.

If you really want to go out and be a do-gooder, try doing those sorts of things instead of looking for reasons to justify pulling a gun.
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Old August 12, 2009, 03:46 PM   #91
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i agree with you that maybe he was excessive but he did what he did and the point is no one was hurt...did he shoot anyone.NO did he detain a dirtball YES.

i guess i look around and see far to many things happening because others are AFRAID of what might happen...

peetza im not saying he should have pulled the gun but again what bad came?

insurance is not going to cover a cash deposit... just like if someone comes into my house and steals cash...no good to the insurance company.

so let me ask you this...you are at home and someone comes in and says hey im going to steal your tv set but i wont hurt you or your family...you going to let them do it if you have a gun in your night stand?! A BIG FAT NO!

Ok a dirtball approached YOUR WIFE and CHILD and grabbed their stuff? gunna sit back and watch it? what if I watched it happen to your wife and some guy stabbed her and i said wow i saw the entire thing and did nothing...sorry dude about your wife dying? HECK NO you be very mad if that happened and somoeone had the ability to stop it and did nothing.

i'm simply tired of everyone being afraid to help for fear of being sued or arrested its FRIGGIN STUPID.
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Old August 12, 2009, 03:50 PM   #92
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Did he detain a dirtball?

Well, yes, but he detained a guy who had committed petit theft (misdemeanor) by using the threat of deadly force (brandishing - misdemeanor or assault - felony depending on the DA's mood) and by impersonating an officer (potential felony count).

Life isn't the NFL. Penalties don't offset. Samaritan #1 in this example arguably committed more serious crimes than did the guy he detained.
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Old August 12, 2009, 03:56 PM   #93
flyguyskt
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MLEAKE. i too am a vet...i was EOD...that has nothing to do with it...except you should understand fighting for our rights!!!ly

i would not have pulled the gun out in that situation but i would probably have gotten involved.

i have also had nearly 30 years of hand to hand training so i feel that i have a respnsibility to help those whom can't help themselves. i dont have the FRAME to back it up as im only 5'7 and 170 pounds...but get ahold of me and find out about my frame!

my dad was a cop in the old days was a naval UDT team leader in korea and maybe i have a bit of his spice in me

oh and i DO pull over to help with flats and go out of my way to help others in need on a regular basis...i have no fear of answering questions at the pearly gates for my actions or lack there of

OLD MARKSMAN: just how "old" are you.?..im not that old but even i can remember the days when you helped someone you were thanked not sued!!!

LAW makers and LAWYERS have caused more problems than they have solved

Last edited by flyguyskt; August 12, 2009 at 04:02 PM.
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Old August 12, 2009, 04:00 PM   #94
OldMarksman
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just saying i still believe in old school punishment.

the law of the land so to speak.
Well, the law of the land established three branches of government. one to make the laws, one to enforce them, and one to interpret them. The law of the land also established which powers were vested in the Federal government and which were vested in the states. And each of the states followed suit.

Somewhere in the Utah state code there is apparently something that defines theft of the duffel bag as a rather minor misdemeanor and describes the possible range of punishments. There are also laws against assault, pointing or shooting a gun without justification as defined in the law, making someone lie on the ground....

And in Utah law it is specified how miscreants are to be charged and tried and by whom. The responsibility for determining guilt, passing sentence, and executing the sentence is assigned to elements of the judicial branch, not the police department or citizens not seated on a jury.

From what we have read, the two guys with the guns are entering into that process and may in fact be subject to "old school punishment". So will the duffel bag thief.

Quote:
i dont need a cop to fight my battles and i sure aint gunna wait for or depend on one when it all hits the fan...oh please dont stab me until i call the polce and wait 10 minutes for them to show up!
Well, yeah, the courts have ruled that you are responsible for your own protection.

Quote:
NO THANKS NOT ME...better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6!
These guys will most probably be judged, but since they didn't actually shoot anyone, it may be by a jury of eight people.

What will happen remains to be seen. Possibilities include permanent loss of gun rights, imprisonment...and it seems likely that their expenses are already starting to mount up big time.

Is that wrong? The Utah legislature has defined what constitutes a crime. There is apparently probable cause to charge these fellows with criminal conduct. Now the wheels of justice will grind, with whatever outcome yet to be determined.

These guys exercised incredibly poor judgment, and they may have committed crimes--that's up to the court system that has been operating in Utah for a little over a century.

But they may well have been lucky. They might have murdered the guy by using deadly force to protect property; they might have shot each other; they could haver been gunned down by police officers trying to protect an unarmed man on the ground against a couple of gunmen in a most unfortunate turn of events.
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Old August 12, 2009, 04:07 PM   #95
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i think we should all turn in our guns and live our lives in fear of the LAWS that we put in place...just because the LAW says its so doesnt make it right by human right standard...

WE all should have a RIGHT to not live in FEAR.

Common sense law needs to be in place not what some politician wrote down because he was too scared to fight for himself.

LAWS against pointing a gun at someone...hmmm seems to me the protectors and servers of our cities and states do this all the time for petty crimes...need to have a gun out to stop someone for drunk driving? oh thats right they are above our LAWS.


i will continue to live my life by the leave me alone and all will be fine for you philosofy. mess with me or mine and you will be gravely dissapointed.

done here. to all that want to stand up and say enough is enough...cheers

Last edited by flyguyskt; August 12, 2009 at 04:13 PM.
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Old August 12, 2009, 04:16 PM   #96
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insurance is not going to cover a cash deposit...
.

Yes it will, she was what the law calls "robbed" a felony, her insurance company will surely pay it. A business has reciepts they can go off to tell how much was taken.

Helping out a person is one thing, to draw a weapon and claim to be a cop, well that is against the law in every state I ever been in.
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Old August 12, 2009, 04:22 PM   #97
OldMarksman
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OLD MARKSMAN: just how "old" are you.?..im not that old but even i can remember the days when you helped someone you were thanked not sued!!!
As old as the Gun Digest itself.

I agree that our society has gotten far, far too litigious, but regarding civil ilability in a case of third party intervention, I think it is not very likely that someone you help will sue you unless you cause harm to him or her.
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Old August 12, 2009, 04:26 PM   #98
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flyguyskt

Well spoken posts that I'm sure reflect the feelings of most Americans. Thanks for having the stones to say it on this forum when you knew that the attack dogs would be all over you. I salute you and no doubt most others do as well. Guys like you are what made this country great!
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Old August 12, 2009, 04:33 PM   #99
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Attack dogs?

You mean those of us who point out that:

1) Impersonating a cop is a criminal offense?

2) Using a deadly weapon to stop a non-violent misdemeanor is a criminal offense?

3) Jumping into a situation when you don't know who the players are may not be a very bright idea, because you earn whatever liabilities the party you choose to help may have brought into the situation?

4) Way too many posters seem to think that any crime at all is adequate reason to respond with violence?

You mean attack dogs like me, then.

And if you are saluting the attitude that says all those things are ok, as log as we show 'em, darn it!!! Sorry, I can't and don't salute that attitude. The people I work with don't salute that attitude. The people I work out with don't salute that attitude.
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Old August 12, 2009, 04:45 PM   #100
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MLeake,
Quote:
You mean those of us who point out that:

1) Impersonating a cop is a criminal offense?

2) Using a deadly weapon to stop a non-violent misdemeanor is a criminal offense?

3) Jumping into a situation when you don't know who the players are may not be a very bright idea, because you earn whatever liabilities the party you choose to help may have brought into the situation?

4) Way too many posters seem to think that any crime at all is adequate reason to respond with violence?

You mean attack dogs like me, then.
You left out the all important "mission statement" of TFL...
According to Bud Helms...
Quote:
TFL is a firearms bulletin board and exists primarily to promote responsible firearms ownership and use, and our Right to Keep and Bear Arms (RKBA).
I like to add "legal use" when I am pointing out these transgressions...

Cptn. Charlie also says...
Quote:
If you're thinking of posting "screw the law, do it anyway" posts, don't bother, because you probably won't be around TFL long enough to read any replies.
with that... I too am one of the dogs...
Brent
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