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Old August 7, 2009, 03:08 PM   #1
DirtyBrownMan
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Cornered Intruder

New member here. I want to first just say this seems like an outstanding community, and I am glad to be part of it.
Now for my question:

An intruder breaks into your home, and for whatever reason, you find that you have cornered him with your weapon drawn. He has no escape route out of your home. The intruder seems compliant in your commands not to move. What is the next course of action that should be taken? Holding him until the police arrive could run the risk of being charged with kidnapping. You could slowly back away, weapon trained on him, and let him leave on his own accord, noting a description and direction of travel. This could be very dangerous, as the tables could suddenly turn with one false move. Now I understand that practice dictates finding a safe room to stay in so situations like this does not happen. However, when SHTF, one must be prepared for anything and everything. What would you do in a situation involving a cornered intruder in you home?

(Edit: I have searched through posts regarding home defense scenarios, but have not seen any regarding this specific situation, which is why I am posting a whole new "scenario post")
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Old August 7, 2009, 03:13 PM   #2
watchcollector1968
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Personally if he tried to leave I would let him. I would do my best to keep distance and avoid allowing him to make any sudden attack on me.

I would shoot him is I absolutely had to, but if he tries to leave I am not prepared to shoot him just to make him stay...all I want is for him to be out of my house and away from my wife and me.

The police would then be called and given all the information I had.

Hopefully if we are ever broken into (not likely since we have 3 rottie's) we are in a position to hole up in the bedroom with the police on the phone already.
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Old August 7, 2009, 03:16 PM   #3
Brian Pfleuger
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Many, if not most, localities allow for you to hold a suspect while waiting for the police. 1)Know the laws in your location. 2)Understand the difficulties associated with detaining a suspect and/or citizens arrest.


Personally, I would much prefer to avoid that scenario. Depending on all the "what-ifs", I would generally be more than happy to "un-corner" the perp and let them run away.
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Old August 7, 2009, 03:20 PM   #4
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I know there are a million What-ifs, but I don't want to have to move away and now the perp knows where you live, knows that you have a weapon(s) in your house, and may be angry with you. I would hold him until the police arrived, unless it was just like a kid, or someone that for whatever reason, I did think would come back.
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Old August 7, 2009, 03:25 PM   #5
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If he runs away,you really shouldn't do anything but let him go.Some states allow you to shoot him reguardless if he is armed or not if he simply breaks in,and I don't know how a citizens arrest would turn out if you detained him.Your best bet legally and morally is to just let him go if he goes,but if he brings deadly force into play,it is your duty to stop him to protect your family.You essentially are deputytised at the moment you draw or fire a weapon in your own home to protect yourself or others.If that wasn't the case,then you would be arrested for "firing a firearm in an occupied structure"which is a felony,but in defense of yourself and others,or for a police officer,that law is nullified
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Old August 7, 2009, 03:49 PM   #6
Dannyl
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Been there, three years ago

HI,
Three years ago I caught an thief in my office. After ascertaining that he was not armed I informed him (not too politely) that he was under citizens-arrest and the police were on their way.
He complied, and while waiting for the cops to arrive I had him sitting, on his hands, with his palms up, legs straight (knees not bent) in front of him, not leaning against a wall.

This position allows you to keep good control; sitting like that numbs the hands fairly quick, and prevents a person from doing any attempt to rush you .
(one cannot "jump" or lunge from this position)

I did not make any physical contact, nor got within 2 meters of him, so that I avoided a situation where I could have ended in a scuffle.

If he had tried to run rather than comply, I would have not used a firearm or any violent means to stop him, unless he endangered me or one of my staff.

I am not sure about the laws in the US, but here if you hurt a fleeing suspect who does not pose a threat you are in big trouble. (even cops have very limiting regulations in this respect)


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Old August 7, 2009, 04:42 PM   #7
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Check the laws in your jurisdiction. If they are not VERY supportive of citizen's arrests, consider this:

You can tell him to stay there, but you probably can't enforce it.

If he stays, the police have him. Congratulations.

If he leaves, you have done your job in protecting yourself and your family from harm, but the police still have some work to do. No bloodshed and you don't need a lawyer. Congratulations.

Only if he comes at you with a real threat do you have a justification to shoot, and even then you are going to need to hire a lawyer and, unless you have nerves of steel, you are going to go through some difficult emotional times.

So my preference would be to avoid cornering him, and if for some weird reason it happens, I would do what you suggested, backing up with your choice of firearm still trained on him, even to the point of giving him an exit. There are some folks on here who are (or at least profess to be) itching for a chance to shoot somebody, but I just ain't one of 'em. My goal is the maximum physical and economic safety for me and my family. Let him run out the door and trip over the cop's foot on the way out, I say.

And welcome aboard.
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Old August 7, 2009, 04:53 PM   #8
maestro pistolero
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Quote:
Many, if not most, localities allow for you to hold a suspect while waiting for the police
Even the supreme court weighed in on this during arguments in Heller. Wasn't it Roberts who described the scenario of holding a gun on an intruder with one hand while calling the police with the other?
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Old August 7, 2009, 07:58 PM   #9
Doc TH
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intruder

A charge of kidnapping is not an issue in the scenario you described.
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Old August 7, 2009, 08:20 PM   #10
GeauxTide
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+1 DocTH

He would leave my house with the police or the coroner. He made the decision to unlawfully enter my home and will not be allowed to leave without the escort above.
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Old August 7, 2009, 08:23 PM   #11
OldMarksman
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A charge of kidnapping is not an issue in the scenario you described.
Not sure where you live, but sometime last year someone on this board relayed a story of kidnapping charges under rather similar circumstances.

In my CCW class he possibility was mentioned. We do have a castle law here.
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Old August 7, 2009, 08:34 PM   #12
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He would leave my house with the police or the coroner. He made the decision to unlawfully enter my home and will not be allowed to leave without the escort above.
GeauxTide, you probably ought to get yourself some qualified legal advice before acting in that manner, and having posted that discoverable statement on line, you should probably let someone else handle the intruder should the occasion arise.

Here's what the law appears to say:

Quote:
Code of Alabama - Title 13A: Criminal Code - Section 13A-3-27 - Use of force in making an arrest or preventing an escape

(g) A private person acting on his own account is justified in using physical force upon another person when and to the extent that he reasonably believes it necessary to effect an arrest or to prevent the escape from custody of an arrested person whom he reasonably believes has committed a felony and who in fact has committed that felony, but he is justified in using deadly physical force for the purpose only when he reasonably believes it necessary to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of deadly physical force.
http://law.onecle.com/alabama/crimin.../13A-3-27.html
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Old August 7, 2009, 08:36 PM   #13
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Make him take off his pants and then let him go. See if he can make it home without getting busted.

Okay, okay, I'm just kidding. Sheesh.
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Old August 7, 2009, 09:04 PM   #14
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If we have gotten to the point that a bg has impressed me with his ability, willingness, and threat to do me bodily harm, . . . one of us is going onto the floor, . . . either face down and spread eagle, . . . or down and bleeding profusely.

If he is face down and spread eagle, . . . as already stated: he has already demonstrated his ability, willingness, and threat to do me bodily harm, . . . so if he comes up off that floor, . . . I can only assume that he intends to continue what he was doing when he went down on that floor, . . . and I will be forced to defend myself accordingly.

May God bless,
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Old August 7, 2009, 09:50 PM   #15
Sefner
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Personally if he tried to leave I would let him. I would do my best to keep distance and avoid allowing him to make any sudden attack on me.

I would shoot him is I absolutely had to, but if he tries to leave I am not prepared to shoot him just to make him stay...all I want is for him to be out of my house and away from my wife and me.

The police would then be called and given all the information I had.
+1 to this. Very slim chance you would be charged with kidnapping. Maybe if you tied him up and took him to a back room or locked him in a closet or something. But make sure you check the laws. Either way, I have a hard time believing that you can get charged with kidnapping when the guy entered YOUR HOUSE illegally.
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Old August 8, 2009, 01:42 PM   #16
Donn_N
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I know there are a million What-ifs, but I don't want to have to move away and now the perp knows where you live, knows that you have a weapon(s) in your house, and may be angry with you. I would hold him until the police arrived, unless it was just like a kid, or someone that for whatever reason, I did think would come back.
As a reason for holding him for the police, this doesn't really make too much sense. Unless this guy is a fugitive from America's Most Wanted or something, he'll be out on bail in short order. So then who is he going to most ticked off at? The guy who let him go or the guy who got him arrested?

I say let him go. Holding him for police just increases the odds of something going south.
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Old August 8, 2009, 05:30 PM   #17
troy_mclure
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a friend of my mothers(a 79yr old man) had been having a bunch of his goats stolen/shot.

he raises goats for a living.

he came home and found some guys loading some of his goats dead in their truck.

he held them at shot gun point till the sheriff came.

the sheriff released the 3 guys and arrested him.

he spent some time in jail for assault with a deadly weapon, and a few other charges i forget.

after he was released he came home and found all his goats had been killed.

he still has an on going lawsuit with the sheriff's department over it.


legally you may be better off if "they came right at you" and you had to shoot them.
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Old August 8, 2009, 06:07 PM   #18
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That CAN'T be the whole story

Quote:
Originally Posted by troy_mclure
a friend of my mothers(a 79yr old man) had been having a bunch of his goats stolen/shot.

he raises goats for a living.

he came home and found some guys loading some of his goats dead in their truck.

he held them at shot gun point till the sheriff came.

the sheriff released the 3 guys and arrested him.

he spent some time in jail for assault with a deadly weapon, and a few other charges i forget.

after he was released he came home and found all his goats had been killed.

he still has an on going lawsuit with the sheriff's department over it.
A couple of questions come immediately to mind. This side of the story is so outrageous that there must be other factors involved.

Does the Sheriff have some kind of relationship with the three goat-rustlers? Or a beef with the Goatherd?

What are the laws in this jurisdiction about 1) firearms, 2) goat theft or property crimes in general and the use of deadly force in enforcing ownership rights?

Why were the three guys not charged with theft, since there was clearly a complainant present? Were they asserting some kind of ownership rights over the goats or did the old man refuse to file a charge? Is there a reason the Sheriff could not have arrested everyone, if there were uncertainties about the events or status?

The time he spend in jail, was that being held for trail, arraignment or something or was he found guilty of something and thus served a sentence?

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Old August 8, 2009, 06:43 PM   #19
Trashcan-man
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Make him take off his pants and then let him go. See if he can make it home without getting busted.
LOL...That would be hilarious. Think of the bright side, you'd probably get his ID and he would be hard pressed to make it all the way home without LE or a citizen taking note of him.
I dunno, I would tell him to lay on the floor but wouldn't shoot unless he made a threatening move towards me or my family.

edit:If I see on the news that some joker caught a burglar and made him take off his pants I'm looking here first for a post on it...lol.
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Old August 8, 2009, 06:54 PM   #20
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I read a great magazine article on this, and it is in line with the training I've received on handcuffing a compliant subject. This is all assuming it is legal for you to detain an intruder in your area. I'll paraphrase and condense it for ya...

Scenario:
You're woken up in the middle of the night to strange sounds coming from within your house. You grab your handgun and flashlight and go to investigate (granted, a tactical mistake, but if you find yourself in this situation...) and find an intruder rummaging through your stuff. He appears to be armed with a knife/bat/club/etc.

- Blind him with the light and instruct him to remain still and toss the weapon to the side, away from him. Do not instruct him to throw/kick/slide/etc. the weapon toward you, that will likely distract you allowing him a moment to attack. Plus it's just something for you to trip over if you have to move. Do not energize the room lights. You have the advantage of knowing the layout of your home as well as not being blinded by a flashlight 10 seconds ago. Distance is your friend, place objects (coffee table, chair, etc) in between you and him. You would be wise to retain this advantage.

- Instruct the BG to place his arms out to either side, palms facing up. You don't want him to put his hands on top of his head, you do not know if he has a weapon hidden somewhere yet.

- Instruct the BG to keep his hands out to the side and turn slowly until you tell him to stop. Have the BG turn in a 360* circle (to see if there are any other visable weapons) and then keep turning until he is facing away from you.

- Instruct the BG to get on his knees while keeping his hands out to the side.
- Instruct the BG to cross his ankles.
- Have him walk forward on his hands until he is laying on his stomach.
- Immediately have him extend his arms out to either side, palms facing up.
- Have him turn his head away from you. (This puts the BG in a position that will not physically allow them to jump to their feet. Keep your distance, effective range of a handgun is far greater than your living room size, stay back.)
- Tell him that if he moves, you will assume he is trying to attack you and you will shoot him.
- If you're not on the phone with the police already, you need to call them now. Give your address first, description of the problem, description of yourself and of the perp and both of your locations within the house.
- While on the phone with 911, tell him again "If you move, I will assume you are trying to attack me and I will shoot you. Do you understand?"
- Give oficers permission to break down the front door if you or another family member cannot get to it without coming into close proximity to the BG.
- Once police are in the house; identify yourself, put your gun down and raise your hands while identifying yourself again as they enter the room. If they come in and see a guy holding a gun on another guy that's laying on his stomach, who looks like the BG?
- Don't answer any questions without a lawyer present. Be curtious and respectful to the officers, but explain to them that you are freaked out right now (as you should be) and you would like a lawyer present before answering any questions.


I don't remember the exact magazine I read all this in, nor do I remember the author, but it's sound advice and is almost exactly the same procedure that many LE agencies train and use for handcuffing a compliant subject. If he runs, let him run...
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Old August 8, 2009, 07:33 PM   #21
Nnobby45
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I don't remember the exact magazine I read all this in, nor do I remember the author, but it's sound advice and is almost exactly the same procedure that many LE agencies train and use for handcuffing a compliant subject.
Any yet you remember everything else in detail.

Sound advice? Like how it'd be kidknapping to hold an intruder in your home at gun pont? Like refuse to discuss what happened to the police. Just let them guess why the man was on the floor at gunpoint and let him go because you're waiting for your lawyer to arrive before you'll talk to them.

Quote:
If they come in and see a guy holding a gun on another guy that's laying on his stomach, who looks like the BG?

Oh right, LOL, since it's so common for the home invader to hold the home owner at gun point until the police arrive, the police are sure to figure the guy on the ground is the victim.

Sounds like a very good article if you like satyrical humor ala John Conner's Gun Crank Diaries in Am. HG.

Thanks for the laughs.


Quote:
Not sure where you live, but sometime last year someone on this board relayed a story of kidnapping charges under rather similar circumstances.
I think that's bunk.

Not if it was home owner holding intruder for the police.

I'm not talking about holding your ex girlfriend and her new boyfriend at gunpoint when they enter your home with her spare key as they come back to get what she thinks belongs to her while you thing it belongs to you type of inncident. Or any other domestic type incident where posters tend to not remember the facts with re: to something the "heard".

I mean an intruder in your home where virtually every state recognizes the danger to the home owner and where holding Bubba at gunpoint may necessary for your own survival.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Last edited by Nnobby45; August 8, 2009 at 07:42 PM.
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Old August 8, 2009, 07:51 PM   #22
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Any yet you remember everything else in detail.

Sound advice? Like how it'd be kidknapping to hold an intruder in your home at gun pont? Like refuse to discuss what happened to the police. Just let them guess why the man was on the floor at gunpoint and let him go because you're waiting for your lawyer to arrive before you'll talk to them.
I stated at the top that all of this is assuming it's legal to detain an intruder in your area.

I remember everything else in detail because I deemed the content more important than the guy who wrote it. Not to mention that it is almost exactly the same as the procedures for handcuffing a compliant subject, up until the actual handcuffing part.

Refuse to discuss what happened to police? I didn't say that. You've already told police what was going on via the 911 call. No need to screw up the articulation after the fact and wind up in court over it. I don't know what training/education you've received on talking to police, but I doubt it equals that of a trained defense lawyer.

Quote:
Oh right, LOL, since it's so common for the home invader to hold the home owner at gun point until the police arrive, the police are sure to figure the guy on the ground is the victim.
So you're saying that you shouldn't identify yourself as the good guy to police? Maybe you should re-think that. Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather err on the side of caution when police will enter my home with guns drawn and I'm the only other guy in the house with a gun.
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Old August 8, 2009, 08:15 PM   #23
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do look into the laws alot is determined by what you say
if you tell him to sit down and shut up he is under arrest
if you say "can you have a seat while we wait for the police to arrive"
the second statement is a question and you are asking him to sit so therefor you have not deprived him of his rights so therefor not under arrest
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Old August 8, 2009, 08:27 PM   #24
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If it's just you and the criminal in a room, with no witnesses, my gut tells me that you could do whatever your conscience could handle if he wasn't compliant.....ability, intent, and opportunity to do you bodily harm or commit a forceable felony can all be inferred from his actions thus far.....I'd say if he fails to obey any commands, you would be reasonable to perceive he still intends to do you harm, and act accordingly.
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Old August 8, 2009, 08:30 PM   #25
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If it's just you and the criminal in a room, with no witnesses, my gut tells me that you could do whatever your conscience could handle if he wasn't compliant.....
Witnesses ain't everything... Forensic evidence, namely GSR patterns would play a huge role in a murder case.
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