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Old August 9, 2009, 06:44 PM   #26
Nnobby45
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The next one is that under some scenarios, fighting back would be more harmful than doing nothing...
That's what bureaucrats tell us all the time, though, admittedly, it's ususally all scenarios where it's recommended we submit.

In the Pittsburgh gym mass murder, I don't recall anyone dying because they fought back.

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The first one is that a determined, armed adversary, acting with speed, surprise and firepower can accomplish his murderous mission before anyone, outside of a REAL military Operator, can react
I don't know how speedy and surprising he needed to be to gun down defensless women, in a carefully chosen environment, with no risk to himself.

He'd attempted it before, but became indecisive and chickened out on a couple of occasions. Unfortunatly, he was effective enough.

Don't know what all the lesson stuff is about. Who among us figured that we're completely safe because we're armed, or need to be told there no truly safe environments out there after attacks at schools, universities, churches, offices, malls, parking lots, stores, streets, law offices, coffee shops, court houses--- in the stairwell, parking garage, when hiking, going to the laundry room, in our homes, taking out the garbage, getting the mail, etc.


Some good lessons for aerobics class members, perhaps.
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Old August 9, 2009, 07:41 PM   #27
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Never trade luck for skill
Or... I'd rather be lucky than skilled any day of the week.
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Old August 9, 2009, 09:36 PM   #28
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luck can make you not dead by chance. skill keeps you not dead longer through knowledge.
I still pick luck. all the skill in the world can be a waste if you are the unlucky guy of a lucky placed shot.
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Old August 9, 2009, 10:12 PM   #29
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OK here is my take on this.
Situational : Aerobics room of a gym. No cover, it is a large open floor. Lights were turned out. Some ambient light was coming through. He fires shots and it takes a moment for the ladies to figure out that some one is shooting people in the room. (Shock and Awe affect.) They then start to scrable out.
Time frame was less than a minute and a half. What I have gathered is he unloded both handguns as fast as he could pull the trigger. He then took out a revolver and killed hisself.
Subjective profile: (my personal opinion here) He was depressed and had the delusional thought that a girfriend or lover might help him to not be depressed any more. He bought his clothes, groomed himself, bought cologne, furnished his house, and chose his car all with hopes that it would have more appeal with women. He joined that very gym and started lifting weights in hopes of meeting a woman. When none of it seemed to work he decide life was just too miserable to go on. He decided he is gonna end it all and take out a few of his percieved tormentors. He could not go through with it before I feel because when it was lit it made it too personal for him to get past the thought of killing women. He goes home and keeps thinking of how can he cary it out. He stated in his journal "maybe this new idea will work this time" I personaly believe he decided to go back for the night class with the intentoin of turning out the lights and just opening fire. Thus being able to cary out his plan.
Aftermath: 3 dead several wounded, a couple of them criticly. Dead gunman by his own hand.
There are a lot of what ifs here. Honestly If one of those women had somehow say had a fanny pack and a handgun she may still have not been able to do much if anything. We all say get cover. Only way to get cover in that situaton is either behind a dead body, or get out of the room. Hoping you do not get one in the back on the way out. Or try to fire on him with the small amount of ambient light that was in the room.
Unfortuately There is no magic awnser to this.
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Old August 9, 2009, 11:39 PM   #30
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I still pick luck. all the skill in the world can be a waste if you are the unlucky guy of a lucky placed shot.

Some people discuss the issue as though luck were something you have the option to pick.

Luck and skill exist in two different contexts which aren't sympatric (they don't live in the same environment).


Better to stick with reality. Luck chooses you. Not you it. Without skill, you may not last long enough to allow luck to intervene in your behalf in a good way or bad.


Of course, no doubt, some folks would argue that being killed because of lack of skill is bad luck.
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Old August 10, 2009, 01:14 AM   #31
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Or... I'd rather be lucky than skilled any day of the week.
I met my wife through luck. I keep her through skill!

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Old August 10, 2009, 01:40 AM   #32
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My first lesson: Validation. I am not paranoid after all for having my pistol in a bag that follows me from station to station as I work out at the gym.

I find it hard to believe that a person attempting to intervene could have made this situation any worse. You have a guy intentionally killing people with multiple firearms. The chances of me being his next target are what, 1 in 20, or 1 in 40? (based on however many people were in the room).

I follow the movement of the muzzle flashes while moving low and fast into position. If the alternative is to wait my turn to be executed, or watch innocent people die one after the other, I am by God going on the offense. I think I stand a way better than 50/50 chance of stopping the guy before becoming the next target.

Last edited by maestro pistolero; August 10, 2009 at 03:27 AM.
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Old August 10, 2009, 03:05 AM   #33
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Think outside the box WA. You should be endorsing Thunderwear. www.thunderwear.com Just don't fall and accidently blow off your tender vittles by mistake!

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Old August 10, 2009, 05:09 AM   #34
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a good question

Mmmmh, indeed that is a good question ( in the opening post)
I admit, I do not carry in some situations.

When I go to Gym I mostly swim, but even if I was doing other stuff, I do not think that I would carry.
the same applies when I go horse-riding ( I fear to think of what my mare would do if I let off a shot while being on her back, but I am pretty sure that it would end up with me taking sand out of my ears).

I also have not seen any skydivers carrying guns, we had a safe in the club where we would lock our guns while we were busy with the day's jumping.

At the end life is not B&W but several shades of gray, and I make it a point to asses the risk of everything I do and IMO, the chances of someone opening up while I am at the Gym or horse riding are rather slim and since carrying then is not very practical for me, I don't.


This does not make me feel bad or as if I am inconsistent.

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Old August 10, 2009, 07:13 AM   #35
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Sad Ken comes to that conclusion. If everyone of those women had a 22lr Beretta, or, some sort of deep ccw, in thunderwear, the guy might have been met by a hail of 22 bullets, better then being shot up.

All it shows is when you go into a Free Fire Zone, where all guns are banned, your screwed...
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Old August 10, 2009, 11:50 AM   #36
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I also have not seen any skydivers carrying guns, we had a safe in the club where we would lock our guns while we were busy with the day's jumping.
Danny is quite right. I watched my son jump out of perfectly good airplane this past weekend. Everything must come out of the pockets and off the belts... wallets, phones, knives, and most certainly guns.

I take martial arts. Do not ever let one of the instructors, or worse yet, the head man himself, find you packing a gun while you're on the mats working out.

There are situations where you can not carry a gun. You just have to deal with it and have a plan "B". Then have a plan "C".
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Old August 10, 2009, 12:12 PM   #37
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Who said guns were banned from the gym?
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Old August 10, 2009, 12:14 PM   #38
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There are situations where you can not carry a gun. You just have to deal with it and have a plan "B". Then have a plan "C".
Indeed.

Plan A) Carry a gun.

Plan B)Take the 300,000,000 to 1 chance that today won't be the day or the place.

Plan C) Be hard to hit.
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Old August 10, 2009, 12:41 PM   #39
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WildAlaska,

You know better than that, and you're just potstirring for the "fun" of watching online strangers get mad at you. Knock it off.

Just because all scenarios aren't survivable, does not mean that it's stupid or pointless to improve your odds by being prepared to cope with the ones that are survivable.

And as for fighting back somehow causing more harm than simply dying for the guy's sick pleasure, I don't see that in this situation. There are other situations where the best strategy might be to wait and see what happens before choosing to fight back, but I don't see anyone in this situation getting more dead simply because they tried to survive.

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Old August 10, 2009, 01:03 PM   #40
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You know better than that, and you're just potstirring for the "fun" of watching online strangers get mad at you. Knock it off.
Havent seen folks getting to worked up here yet (for a change)

At any rate, I think it is a legitimate issue. Sort of like being armed at the beach when wearing, as I do, skimpy attire..or in the swimming pool, or the shower.

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Just because all scenarios aren't survivable, does not mean that it's stupid or pointless to improve your odds by being prepared to cope with the ones that are survivable.

I am not arguing for being prepared...I am arguing at the LEVEL of preparedness...something which I see many posters agree with...

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There are other situations where the best strategy might be to wait and see what happens before choosing to fight back,
My main point here....some situations would MANDATE that even if armed, one not fight back (at least immediately)...

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Old August 10, 2009, 01:25 PM   #41
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We all realize that action is faster than reaction. That is the reason that we wear a seatbelt while driving instead on trying to buckle up only when we see a accident comming. I try to live and enjoy life as normally and responsibly as possible. All I can do is to try and be reasonably prepared to midigate the likely dangers that are associated with life. There is no way that I can protect against everything and I dont try to.
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Old August 10, 2009, 02:02 PM   #42
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Safe, safer, safest...

Quote:
Originally Posted by thawntex
For me, the lessons of defensive driving apply to everyday life:
Always have an escape route
Pay constant attention to those around you
Try to predict the actions of others
Control yourself when confronted with aggression
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmland
I know I often find my self looking for exits and places that provide protection if only for a second when I'm out with the family. I often give a person with a large bag a little more attention, such as a duffel bag. I know I watch someone new that walks into a place that I have never seen or just doesn't fit.
Both of these comments make the real point here, I think. Whether you're armed or not in a given situation, you're much safer if you routinely pay attention to your surroundings... You can buy a gun, spend money on training and ammunition, etc., but none of that will make you safe if you're not thinking defensively as a routine part of how you meet the world. Knowing where the exits are, knowing where there's cover and/or concealment, noticing that the guy in the black workout suit who just walked in is listing to one side from the weight of his gym bag... priceless.

I like the defensive driving analogy a lot better than notions about "warrior mindsets" and the like. It's just an everyday habit of awareness, of not letting someone sit in your blind spot, of scanning down the road for potential trouble... Is it a guarantee that you won't be the one who's blindsided? No, but it sure reduces the odds.

Another analogy: When my dog and I were taking obedience classes, one of the other students had a question: "My dog always comes when called when I'm training him, but he won't do it when I'm not -- what should I do?" Umm -- and the reason you're ever not training him is....?
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Old August 10, 2009, 02:27 PM   #43
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WildoneandtowandstepandheywaitihavetoadjustmythongholsterAlaska TM
The Hello Kitty shower cap image, in posts from the past, was a bit unnerving; however, this image of you is downright scary!

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outside of a REAL military Operator, can react.....
I am in agreement with pax on this one. Just a bit of baiting going on here.
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Old August 10, 2009, 03:09 PM   #44
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Perhaps if you have a free fire zone area like that, you need to be sued for such an act.

In the past, the action of a third party, violating the law, has been a barrier against the recovery for deaths they cause. Perhaps the case has to be made that if you have a Free Fire zone, like a court room, school, gym due to policy, that you have a duty to keep those people safe. This should mean as the courts do, metal detectors, police on hand, and taking any item that you are not supposed to have in the area.

If you fail to provide such services, the families of the dead should be allowed recovery, since your actions created a situation where they were helpless, unable to protect themselves from someone with a firearm.
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Old August 10, 2009, 03:10 PM   #45
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Well... considereing someone saw the guy on a bus before hand holding a "grenade" and after the police had him the guy who saw him earlier couldnt identify him... so after the cops let him go apparently without searching him he went on to kill people... at least thats what im hearing on the news this morning...
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Old August 10, 2009, 03:21 PM   #46
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The real less on

Crazy people will somehow always find a way to get armed, it does not matter how many laws/barriers you put in front of them. It is the job of sane people to defend themselves when crazy people show themselves to be a threat and WE CANNOT DO IT IF THE GOVERNMENT TOUCHES OUR GUNS!!! I tell the government the same thing about my guns that I would tell Michael Jackson about a little boy... "NO TOUCHY!!!"
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Old August 10, 2009, 03:22 PM   #47
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sorry

about the subject and space bar slip up... cannot edit title... bloody typos
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Old August 10, 2009, 03:28 PM   #48
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I am in agreement with pax on this one. Just a bit of baiting going on here.
really AZAK? Ok, I for one have the honesty to admit in in the Gym Scenario, I for one would be doing more harm than good in attempting to take down an attacker....

Most of us are not trained to react in a dark environment with screaming, bullets flying, bodies running about everywhere against a shooter who has the advantage of surprise and position....

So how is that baiting...because some folks THINK they could do some good in that scenario and it hurts their feelings because they cant?

isnt it part of Tactics and training to know your limitations?

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Old August 10, 2009, 04:09 PM   #49
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good post....good question. kinda makes all those what holster should i use when taking a shower, or what gun should i choose when i'm at the beach wearing nothing but speedos questions look as stupid as they really are.

i knew a pres. of a national m/c club. he walked out of a bar filled with his friends one nite. he had a friend on either side, all were armed. one shot rang out and he was dead. the sniper disappeard without any return fire. if kings and presidents can be shot it is nothing but arrogance to think a concealed handgun and a few trips to the range will somehow make you invincible. i'm not saying to leave your guns at home, i'm just saying if you let fear dictate your life or you will never be more than arms length from your gun vault and there is alot of life that you will be missing out on. i say be careful, take precautions, don't act foolish or stupid but there is alot of good stuff out there. don't live as a prisoner of your own mind.
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Old August 10, 2009, 04:12 PM   #50
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I for one have the honesty to admit in in the Gym Scenario, I for one would be doing more harm than good in attempting to take down an attacker....
I would call it belief rather than honesty. "The ideas in your head rule your world." To paraphrase a source or two.

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Most of us are not trained to react in a dark environment with screaming, bullets flying, bodies running about everywhere against a shooter who has the advantage of surprise and position....
Most of us are not trained for much of what happens in life period. Does this constitute just sitting on our Hello Kitty thongs, and bemoaning the fates? Godot, Godot, where for art thou Godot?.

Quote:
So how is that baiting...because some folks THINK they could do some good in that scenario and it hurts their feelings because they cant?
Thinking that you can do something is paramount to doing it. When you think you "cant"... self-fulfilling prophesy.
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