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Old August 7, 2009, 04:01 AM   #76
GojuBrian
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First, let me preface with the fact that Florida is a strong stand your ground state and we are not required to retreat in any fashion. That said, last Monday, while circling the very crowded parking lot for a handicap space (I get to park close, that's what makes me so popular) a space was finally opening up. I pulled up close and waited for the elderly woman to vacate the space. A gold Toyota behind me quickly became impatient and began tooting his horn. I felt bad for blocking the isle but I needed that space. The woman was moving very slow and after the third toot I looked in my driver's side view mirror just in time to see an incredibly irate man, face fire engine red, teeth gritted stomping toward my door. I drew my KetTec P3AT in anticipation, but kept it unseen, and as he passed the rear door of my car he slammed the glass with the side of his right fist very hard. He stopped at my window and began screaming at the top of his lungs to move my %$#*&^ car or he was going to kick my %$#*)(^$#*^% a$$. So...I pointed my pistol at him. He began screaming "shoot me shoot me" over and over. I was trapped at this point with the little old lady backing out and the assailant's car parked behind me. I lowered my window a little and firmly advised him to back up, that I would defend myself. Thankfully the road cleared and I pulled into the space. They called the police and I waited. Every deputy in the county showed up. They were all very cordial, asked a few questions, had me and him fill out a statement, ran the serial# of my KelTec as well as the Colt M4 OPS .22 in the trunk. Neither of us pressed charges against the other, my pistol was returned and I and he went about our separate ways, me to a different WalMart. I've thought about it a lot since.
Well, you encountered a lunatic on a bad day.

I wouldn't pull a gun unless they were armed. How would it look in court? 'W guy shoots unarmed man.' Lawyers would eat your lunch.

I don't think people really find kel-tecs too intimidating either. Perhaps if you pointed a .45 or .44 at him he would have been nicer.

I wasn't there and everything turned out ok, so all's well that ends well...unless he tracks you down!!!
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Old August 7, 2009, 06:19 AM   #77
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GojuBrian brings up a good point. As I replied on another forum where you posted this situation...

I would keep your weapon very close at hand! If this guy has your license plate number and he is that unstable, his random act of aggression in the parking lot could become personal. I'm just saying...

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Old August 7, 2009, 07:40 AM   #78
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I wouldn't pull a gun unless they were armed. How would it look in court? 'W guy shoots unarmed man.' Lawyers would eat your lunch.
Lawyers & courtrooms absolutely never entered my mind during those brief and startling seconds. What I was actually thinking was "Oh s**t, I'm gonna have to shoot this guy". Then relief when I was able to pull forward away from his raging. He never backed down. As I pulled ahead he stood rigid, fists clinched at his side, teeth gritted, shaking. I truly thought he was going to seize.
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Old August 7, 2009, 08:23 AM   #79
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So far, KLRANGL, (nice handle, is it short for Killer Angel?) you have only met one out of three criteria, that of being boxed in between roadragers car and old ladys car that was backing out.
It is actually Favorite book of all time, but they wouldn't let me put KillerAngel as my handle, so I had to change it...

I do think I met all three criteria though. Intent: threatened great bodily injury. Ability: this is a bit of an assumption, but it goes back to what I said about reading into situations. He could have been 5'3" 120lbs, but I think not. Opportunity: you're stuck...
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Lawyers & courtrooms absolutely never entered my mind during those brief and startling seconds.
Nor will it at that moment. You did what you thought was best, and I cant disagree with you...
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Old August 7, 2009, 08:40 AM   #80
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There are a multitude of scenarios where there is sufficient threat to draw a weapon, but not yet enough to fire.
For me in Texas, that is not the case. The threshold for justification to draw my weapon is no leass than the threshold for justification for pulling the trigger. I must be in reasonable fear of death or grave sever bodily injury to present my weapon - the same standard I must meet to fire upon someone.

Could be different in other states, but if you pull and don't shoot you better make sure you r were willing to shoot at that same instant.
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Old August 7, 2009, 08:42 AM   #81
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1. Really enjoyed this thread and others like it because if nothing else it offers us all an opportunity to 'what if' for our selves so that we might be better prepared if it does happen to us.

2. My favorite solution was smashing through the old lady in her car that was trapping you...definitely the most reasonable and responsible thing to do.

3. I personally would definitely have drawn, and probably wouldn't have tried TOO terribly hard to hide it, but I doubt I would have actually pointed it at him unless he tried to enter the car in anyway. I would not have waited for the window to actually break, or for his potential weapon to be drawn, because doing so would be foolish and probably end poorly for me.

4. From what I have read on here it would appear that the only time Wild does condone the use, or even display, of your gun would be if you are already dead.
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Old August 7, 2009, 08:49 AM   #82
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Having a handicapped permit does not give one carte blanche to inconvenience other folks.
And likewise, simply "being" does not exempt the rest of us from having to be patient sometimes. Even my 5yr old knows that.
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Old August 7, 2009, 08:51 AM   #83
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From what I have read on here it would appear that the only time Wild does condone the use, or even display, of your gun would be if you are already dead.
Then you need lessons in reading comprehension. May I suggest a search, which is something that less experienced members here should perform before pontificating

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Old August 7, 2009, 09:07 AM   #84
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Actually I said 'from what I have read' not 'after reading every post Wild has ever put on here'. I am assuming that because you are on the forum, and from what I gather are somehow in the business of firearms in some manner, that you do in fact support the responsible ownership and usage of firearms. But I do only seem to remember the critical remarks in real life situations that always seem to be along the lines of 'keep it in your pants, for all our sakes'. Although that is probably because they stick out more than just another 'you did pretty good' comments, and the fact that I enjoy trying to figure out what you have inserted between Wild & Alaska in your signatures.
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Old August 7, 2009, 10:01 AM   #85
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This is not a situation unique to handicapped parking spots. Any of us could be confronted with the same situation if we are waiting on a parking spot or even just showing a little extra courtesy to someone who is backing out. The only ingredient missing in most parking lots is a person behind us who is rude to the point of belligerence. The fact that the assailant in this situation is incredibly self centered is like the information you get from Microsoft Support - true, but not useful.

Not a lawyer, but it seems intuitive that one would have a difficult time defending the shooting of a person not visibly armed while you are still inside your car and it has not been breached. That is not to say that it is not a dangerous situation, just one for which deadly force is not justified. So then, if the deadly force is not justified, might one be subject to a charge of brandishing? I would rather not go the expense and trouble of finding out. But unholstering and having the weapon in hand at my side would seem to be a prudent move, because this could escalate very quickly.

I am personally not comfortable with solicitors, beggars, and windshield washers approaching my car without my invitation because of the risk of car jacking. I crack the window just a frog's hair and shout, "No! Get away from the car, please." Then the window goes right back up and I put the cell phone to my ear, in sight of the person approaching, so that I can call 911 if they take another step in my direction. (I am not heartless to the needs of others - I give fairly generously through recognized charities and I do not feel obligated to entail the risk of rolling down my window to hand out more cash to people who will do whatever they want with the money.)

So in this situation, perhaps we should use the same line and place that 911 call. If he damages my car, he will have charges of vandalism and I have insurance. My auto deductible is WAY cheaper than a criminal defense lawyer. If he breaches my car, he has me trapped and has more clearly demonstrated intent and ability to cause me bodily harm, and my gun is in my hand. He escalated the situation after a warning, and unless he backs off the instant the gun appears, I have gone far enough and am forced to defend myself. I'm still out the money for a lawyer, but I am alive to go back to work to pay the attorney's bills. But backing up and hollering, "shoot me, shoot me," is still backing up, and I am no more obligated or justified by his words than I am without them.

Like some other posts, I will add that this is in no way a criticism of OP. I have not had a person beat on my window after I issued my warning, and adrenaline is powerful. OP basically followed what I would consider an ideal course, with the slight (but potentially complicating) factor of pointing the gun. I am glad you are safe and I commend you for getting out of a rather dangerous situation without bloodshed. That is a complement to your skills, thoughtfulness, and preparation, and you should consider this incident to have been successfully handled, IMO.
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Old August 7, 2009, 10:02 AM   #86
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4. From what I have read on here it would appear that the only time Wild does condone the use, or even display, of your gun would be if you are already dead.
LOL
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Old August 7, 2009, 10:19 AM   #87
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But I do only seem to remember the critical remarks in real life situations that always seem to be along the lines of 'keep it in your pants, for all our sakes'.
Wild's right about that. Especially when you're in a stupid argument about a stupid parking space. Because it's not worth shooting someone over a stupid parking space. Not to some of us, anyway.

So what you're telling us is that when you pointed your pistol at this guy, he started telling you to go ahead and shoot him. You didn't shoot him, though. Instead, you simply proceeded to pull into the vacant parking space and park your car, just as you would have done if you had not pulled out a handgun and pointed it at the guy. So pointing a handgun at the guy acccomplished nothing. Because if you had genuinely been in fear for your life, you would not have pulled into that parking space and waited for the guy to walk up to your car. You would have driven away from the threat, and gotten away from the guy. Sorry, but it doesn't sound like you were in fear of being hurt or killed. It sounds like you were willing to escalate a bad situation and make it worse with a firearm, and for what?

A parking space at Walmart.
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Old August 7, 2009, 10:24 AM   #88
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A parking space at Walmart.
Yet the OP laughs at me

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Old August 7, 2009, 10:31 AM   #89
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It sounds like you were willing to escalate a bad situation and make it worse with a firearm, and for what?

A parking space at Walmart.
As posted by Microgunner on another firearm forum on the topic of the ammunition shortage:
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Whenever I go into any Wal-Mart I buy all the common handgun ammo they have on hand or at least all they'll sell me. We re-sell it.
Maybe the guy in the parking lot was one of Microgunner's pawn shop customers???

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Old August 7, 2009, 10:33 AM   #90
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Wild's right about that. Especially when you're in a stupid argument about a stupid parking space. Because it's not worth shooting someone over a stupid parking space. Not to some of us, anyway.
I was not, repeat NOT preparing to shoot someone over a parking space. I WAS preparing to defend myself. Why do some continue attempts to paint this picture as an armed conflict over a parking space? The parking space is academic.
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Old August 7, 2009, 10:39 AM   #91
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hats off to you. it was your call to make and not anyone on this forum. if he's slamming his fist into your window, I don't think you had a choice. I wouldn't even have opened my window to talk to him.

EDIT- lets remind everyone that its not really micro's fault some guy came up to his window and freaked out. doesn't really matter if he was 140 or 250. I don't need to be 250 to break a window. Especially if I have something in my hand, like a flashlight, or even my keys. not everyone shares the mentality of pull the gun when the window is broken. that is idiotic. little late at that point.
You gonna wait for me to break down a door at your house to pull out a gun? Or are you gonna have it ready when you hear the banging? But of course the answer to that is going to be go hide and call the cops cause thats the BEST thing to do ALWAYS. thats called the "if you don't do it the way I would have you are wrong" attitude. :barf:

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Old August 7, 2009, 11:03 AM   #92
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Yet the OP laughs at me
Cheap shot. He has not laughed at anyone but has taken a lot of second-guessing shots and misrepresentations. Some of you seem to get off on criticizing for its own sake.

Some are sounding a lot like liberals in your argumentive style of demonizing and deflecting (Wal-Mart, parking space, etc.), and totally dismiss the relevant factors of OP being handicapped, trapped between two cars, raging aggressor that punches his car and yells he is going to kick his ass and continues toward him.

I think the suggestion to get on the phone is a good one, as just being on the phone with 911 might give the guy pause. But I would be ready to defend as well in case he did try to break the window. Ask Reginald Denny how much time you have to react after the window is busted out.
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Old August 7, 2009, 11:10 AM   #93
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I am glad the OP said what he did about the parking space being academic. The parking space is what he was waiting on, the gun was dawn BECAUSE THE GUY BEHIND HIM WENT NUTS. He may have gone nuts because of the OP was waiting on the parking space but once he went nuts, and acted on said nutting , THAT was the reason for the gun not the parking space.
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Old August 7, 2009, 11:17 AM   #94
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hey pilgrim i just read about the Denny case and I have to agree that a gun in that situation would have saved him
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Old August 7, 2009, 11:19 AM   #95
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not everyone shares the mentality of pull the gun when the window is broken. that is idiotic. little late at that point.
The gun was pulled. it was ready for action in his hand. It cold have stayed down by his leg

its the pointing that is the issue here.

Quote:
Cheap shot. He has not laughed at anyone but has taken a lot of second-guessing shots and misrepresentations. Some of you seem to get off on criticizing for its own sake.
Dude I take more heat on this Board than anyone simply because i ask folks to think. Go read the first few pages of the Pharmacist thread.

As to this thread, the OP should not have pointed that gun. Period. He was in his car prepared to take further action, yet chose to point a deadly weapon without a nedd to do so.He lucked out in not getting arrested IMHO and was irresponsible in handling his firearm.

Read Fremmers post again.

Hell of a lot of interesting psychology here. Way too much testosterone...again.

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Old August 7, 2009, 11:28 AM   #96
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You know, some people might have thought about lowering the window a bit and then letting the big dumbass reach through the window and then clamping down on his arm and taking him for a ride through the parking lot.

He'd be lucky to escape with a broken arm. If he's not so lucky, he'd find out what it's like to be a ford pancake.

The dofus behind you is going to catch up to somebody one day that either doesn't care, is crazy, or has a bunch of money and can pay off the resulting damages.

It's pretty easy to Monday morning quarterback, yet I think what I would have done in this situation is to simply call 911 - all the more better if this clown can be heard screaming and yelling in the background. He scratches the paint? He breaks the window? He goes to jail. Pretty simple. He gets to me? He's going for a ride through the parking lot. Maybe his car gets banged up a bit too.

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Old August 7, 2009, 11:36 AM   #97
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Alright Wild, I will humor you. How many times does a guy have to pound on your window with a fist, before you decide to point a gun at him? Im asking seriously here. OP could have had mental time distortion(psychotachia??? not sure) and we don't even know it. by that I mean the lady in front could have moved at a different time than he thought.
Idk man, what do you do when a guy is slamming his fist into your window and you are stuck from the front and the back? Go to your passenger side?
Calling 911 takes a free hand. I guess if you aren't moving you can do that as the OP said he was stuck. phone in one hand gun in the other? You can do that yes. From what I can read, the pointing of the gun is what made the other man put his hands down. I would call that effective use of your gun. Just showing it is bluffing. I believe there is a difference, where pointing is pointing, and showing is putting it out there for him to see sideways or something.

This really isn't over a parking spot. This is about a guy who obviously thinks he's so important that its worth coming to the OP's car and attacking him. That is what it was, an attack. I will agree with the testosterone statement. Im not 40 or 50 or even 30 yet. I have plenty of it, but it doesn't mean that I don't think because of it. It just means my body will handle the adrenaline in a different way.
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Old August 7, 2009, 12:04 PM   #98
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Why do you insist on trivializing this situation? I've been in confrontations before, same as you, but this was far and beyond anything I've been party to as an adult. Visualize absolute rage to the point I thought he was going to stroke out. This was not a normal person.
Well there ya go. If you say you had reason to believe your life was is danger or threat of physical harm... who am I to second guess? No one here on the interwebz can tell YOU that YOU weren't afraid of for your life...

Job well done! That guy will think twice before he blows up in a parking lot again. Heck, you might have even saved his hide by showing him the business end of your piece. If he would have acosted you and got away with it, chances are he would have done it to someone else down line.... and maybe that someone would have ben a bit quicker to pull the trigger.

You know, deserved or not... you go around bullying, being a hot head or a jerk, banging on strangers cars, making threats of bodily harm... you should probably expect to get shot at eventually.
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Old August 7, 2009, 12:11 PM   #99
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As to this thread, the OP should not have pointed that gun. Period. He was in his car prepared to take further action, yet chose to point a deadly weapon without a nedd to do so.He lucked out in not getting arrested IMHO and was irresponsible in handling his firearm.
IMHO... The OP did the right thing. Why?.... because everyone walked away unharmed. No one got shot and no one got beat up. I would have done the same thing and I think alot would have as well.
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Old August 7, 2009, 12:33 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Sixer
The OP did the right thing. Why?.... because everyone walked away unharmed.
Nope. Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

It's equally possible to argue, as some have, that the OP did the wrong thing and was lucky things didn't escalate further. I wasn't there, I don't know, and I don't see much point in second-guessing.

However, this was basically over a parking space: before the person whose car was in the space pulled out, the OP could have chosen to move on when he saw an irate driver in the car behind him. Waiting for the space to be free was more important to him than avoiding a potential confrontation by moving his car. Was he obliged to move his car? Of course not. Would it have been smart? I'd say yes... but I do get that this all happened in less time than the telling of it.
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