The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old August 6, 2009, 06:15 PM   #51
Microgunner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 6, 2006
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,823
Quote:
Was the OP willing to DESTROY that man?
Absolutely. Thank God it didn't come to that but I do not posture idly.
__________________
Proud NRA Patron Member
Microgunner is offline  
Old August 6, 2009, 06:16 PM   #52
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 17,461
Quote:
Willing to destroy? Yes.
Intending to destroy? In this instance, not quite yet, but maybe very soon.
Depends on what the meaning of "is" is...
You're not "willing to destroy" unless "willing" is present tense. If "willing" is present tense then you are NOT willing and therefore should not be pointing a gun at something that you are NOT willing to destroy.

What might be in 10 seconds or 10 minutes or 1 second is not relevant. Not willing to destroy it, don't point a gun at it.


Quote:
Absolutely. Thank God it didn't come to that but I do not posture idly.
I think you miss the point though. The question is not "would you be willing if..." it is RIGHT AT THAT EXACT SECOND, no further actions required by the aggressor. Were you willing to destroy that man right then, right at that second?

Drawing your gun and being willing if it comes to that is different than willing to kill at that moment. If you weren't willing to kill right at that moment then you should not point the gun at that person.


One more thing. The actions you took were the actions you took. I can't say absolutely what I would have done, it's a tough situation. Don''t think I'm attacking you. My original statement stands. Your judgement at that moment overrides my internet conjecture. I'm just walking through the process for yours and my future reference.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
You do not HAVE a soul. You ARE a soul. You HAVE a body.
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.

Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; August 6, 2009 at 06:22 PM.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old August 6, 2009, 06:19 PM   #53
Jofaba
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 2009
Posts: 322
First, don't take any of this as criticism. I wasn't there or in your position so I can't really criticize you. But I can form an opinion! heh.

Okay, so this is a perfect example of displaying your gun not always solving the problem. I'm curious, were you ready to use it if things escalated?

Why didn't you press charges? I would have. The guys obviously a hair trigger away from being a real danger to someone down the road.

I think about scenarios like this and how I'd react. I really appreciate threads like this, especially the ones (not like this one) where the poster admits to doing things wrong. (Not saying you did ANYTHING wrong). It's very educational.

From my armchair soapbox, I think that I would have made the gun accessible though unseen. I don't think that I'd display it until the guy actually broke my window and tried to attack me physically. As soon as he hit my car I'd have dialed 911 (if a phone was available). I'd let the guy know that I was dialing 911 and he should go back to his car and leave. Id he went back to his vehicle and "got something", I'd let 911 know that he appears to be getting something, possibly a weapon, and that i was armed and although I had not yet shown the person my gun I would do so if he came back with a weapon, and shoot him if he posed a threat to my life.

In the end, we really can't put ourselves in your shoes. No one got hurt, no one got in trouble, so the ends justify the means. Right? No harm no foul. I suppose.
Jofaba is offline  
Old August 6, 2009, 06:21 PM   #54
maestro pistolero
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,047
Quote:
Respectfully:

You pull a gun you pull the trigger.

If you have no intention of shooting, then keep the gun in it's holster.

AFS
With all due respect, this is a dangerous mindset to instill. There are a multitude of scenarios where there is sufficient threat to draw a weapon, but not yet enough to fire. Self-defense situations are, by their very nature, rapidly changing, dynamic events.

A threat level can increase or decrease within milliseconds. In the half-second or so it takes to draw a weapon, a threat may escalate, or de-escalate. If you have trained to shoot every time you draw no matter what, you may find yourself with an unexpected and unwanted change of address.

Judging only from what the OP has written, it seems that pepper spray may have been a better match for the level of threat present. BTW, don't 'brandish' pepper spay. It is best deployed in as stealthy a manner as possible to avoid the assailant an opportunity to block the stream. JMHO
maestro pistolero is offline  
Old August 6, 2009, 06:23 PM   #55
Microgunner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 6, 2006
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 2,823
Quote:
SO I come up to your door while you are stuck in traffic, whack your window with my fist and tell you you are a nogood *&^*&^*&^(*^%.

You can then, without more, shoot me?
Why do you insist on trivializing this situation? I've been in confrontations before, same as you, but this was far and beyond anything I've been party to as an adult. Visualize absolute rage to the point I thought he was going to stroke out. This was not a normal person.
__________________
Proud NRA Patron Member
Microgunner is offline  
Old August 6, 2009, 06:27 PM   #56
spacemanspiff
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 16, 2002
Location: alaska
Posts: 3,107
Quote:
with "im going to kill you" (intent).
The OP's incident had the roadrager saying "Move the car or I'll kick you in the buttocks", where was the threat to kill?
Quote:
ability to get into my car and do me harm.
The OP's account doesn't say the roadrager had anything visible with which to break the glass, nor does it say if the doors were locked/unlocked, nor does it say if the roadrager was 6'6" with fists of steel. It may as well have been a 5'2" 140 lb geek wearing a shirt that says "I'm training to become a cagefighter".
So far, KLRANGL, (nice handle, is it short for Killer Angel?) you have only met one out of three criteria, that of being boxed in between roadragers car and old ladys car that was backing out.
__________________
"Every man alone is sincere; at the entrance of a second person hypocrisy begins." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." - Soren Kierkegaard
spacemanspiff is offline  
Old August 6, 2009, 06:43 PM   #57
spacemanspiff
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 16, 2002
Location: alaska
Posts: 3,107
This:
Quote:
As far as legalities are concerned, Florida statutes say I was in the right
does not match up with this:
Quote:
Neither of us pressed charges against the other,
If you were in the right, the other guy would not have had the option to press charges against you. I am guessing that the cops told each of you that you could either press charges of assault on one another, or just drop it.
__________________
"Every man alone is sincere; at the entrance of a second person hypocrisy begins." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." - Soren Kierkegaard
spacemanspiff is offline  
Old August 6, 2009, 07:16 PM   #58
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,148
Well, I wasn't there, but I'd have liked the story better if you'd told us how you'd verbally defused things without getting the gun involved. Potential deadly force incident that's parking space related? He was yelling and gesturing while standing outside your car without attempting to physiclly contact you or your car? Maybe the gun in hand, but out of sight ready if needed, would have been more prudent.

Yes, I know, it's easy for me to talk when it's not my adrenaline elevated with fear.


Quote:
If you were in the right, the other guy would not have had the option to press charges against you. I am guessing that the cops told each of you that you could either press charges of assault on one another, or just drop it
Not necessarily true, since the cops at the scene may figure the courts can decide the issue and arrest both parties, or accept complaints from both. Hey, don't you ever watch Cops?

Last edited by Nnobby45; August 6, 2009 at 07:27 PM.
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old August 6, 2009, 07:21 PM   #59
Tucker 1371
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 2008
Location: East TN
Posts: 1,887
Sounds like you handled it right to me, I hope I'm never faced with this kind of a jerk who can't check his testosterone but if I am I hope I handle it as well.

The whole "shoot me shoot me" thing is really surprising to me. I don't think I've ever been mad enough to not back down when looking down the barrel of a gun. If this guy has a shred of common sense he probably went home, sat down and thought "man that was stupid". He had no way of knowing your level of restraint.

Quote:
Spiff:The OP's incident had the roadrager saying "Move the car or I'll kick you in the buttocks", where was the threat to kill?

The OP's account doesn't say the roadrager had anything visible with which to break the glass, nor does it say if the doors were locked/unlocked, nor does it say if the roadrager was 6'6" with fists of steel. It may as well have been a 5'2" 140 lb geek wearing a shirt that says "I'm training to become a cagefighter".
Kill? no. Threat of great bodily harm or personal injury yes, and most states (and people I know for that matter) consider the threat of that to be justification for the use of deadly force. There have been plenty of brawls that have gotten out of hand and someone has wound up paralyzed or worse.

Also, I know how thick auto glass is and how bad it will cut but it isn't a stretch, especially if someone has a lot of adrenaline or testosterone pumping through them, for someone to break through a window with their fist/elbow and keep on dishing it out. About 2 years ago I fell asleep whill driving my '88 K5 Blazer (RIP ) and ran off the road, through some small trees and into a creek. The guy behind me stopped and elbowed out my back window and I crawled out. He may have had a towel wrapped around his elbow but I don't recall, he also may have had some cuts but if so they weren't too serious.

The points I am trying to make with all of this are A) It wasn't a stretch to believe this guy could have smashed his window and proceeded to beat the OP to a pulp, and B) given his verbal threats and his threatening demeanor the OP was clearly justified in employing his CCW the way he did.
__________________
NCO of Marines, 3rd Award Expert Rifle, 236 KD Range
D Co, 4th CEB, Engineers UP!! OEF 21JUN-20SEP2011
REV. 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Last edited by Tucker 1371; August 6, 2009 at 07:35 PM.
Tucker 1371 is offline  
Old August 6, 2009, 08:01 PM   #60
Jofaba
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 4, 2009
Posts: 322
"shoot me shoot me" is entirely a reaction you should expect as a possibility. You can't just go around thinking that producing a gun as if it were a prop will make every perp drop to their knees and beg forgiveness.

If you pull your gun, you should be prepared to use it. That's not to say you shouldn't display unless you will actually pull the trigger. But it is, essentially, a bluff. You're upping the ante of your ability to stop their attack. If they call your bluff, you have to be prepared to showing that it wasn't actually a bluff, but a warning.

So, the lesson is: Don't bluff; warn.
Jofaba is offline  
Old August 6, 2009, 08:19 PM   #61
NWPilgrim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 29, 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 2,112
Since 99% of the 1 million - 2 million instances of firearm self-defense end with no shots fired, by some of your accounts those were all irresponsible uses of firearms.

There are a lot of armchair critics who have no clue, if they think every time you draw a a firearm you should be shooting. And if you don't shoot then you had no business drawing.

MG sounds more mature and thoughtful than most of his critics. That's the beauty of the interwebz, no matter what you say someone will jump to criticize.

The fact that the responding deputies saw no problem with his response ought to give his critics some pause.
__________________
"The ultimate authority ... resides in the people alone. ... The advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation ... forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition."
- James Madison
NWPilgrim is offline  
Old August 6, 2009, 08:25 PM   #62
Wildalaska
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,174
Quote:
The fact that the responding deputies saw no problem with his response ought to give his critics some pause.
Legal is not always smart

WildthankgodsomefolksanalyzethewholescenarioAlaska ™
Wildalaska is offline  
Old August 6, 2009, 08:46 PM   #63
Al Norris
Staff
 
Join Date: June 29, 2000
Location: Rupert, Idaho
Posts: 9,276
Moving this one to Tactics and Training ... hold on!
__________________
National listings of the Current 2A Cases.
Al Norris is offline  
Old August 6, 2009, 08:49 PM   #64
NWPilgrim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 29, 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 2,112
Quote:
Legal is not always smart
Critical is not always smarter.
__________________
"The ultimate authority ... resides in the people alone. ... The advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation ... forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition."
- James Madison
NWPilgrim is offline  
Old August 6, 2009, 08:50 PM   #65
Dr. Strangelove
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 1, 2008
Location: Athens, GA
Posts: 1,418
Quote:
Quote:
The fact that the responding deputies saw no problem with his response ought to give his critics some pause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildalaska
Legal is not always smart
Those deputies aren't the ones who would have been trying the case either. Wal-marts all have security cameras facing the parking lot, think about what that would have looked like. One car stops, second car stops, man gets out, hits/touches other car, possibly is shot.

Last edited by Dr. Strangelove; August 6, 2009 at 09:23 PM.
Dr. Strangelove is offline  
Old August 6, 2009, 09:06 PM   #66
kazanski612
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 15, 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 120
Any day you don't have to shoot someone = a good day.

But I think I'm with Wildalaska on this one.
__________________
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes." - Thomas Jefferson's "Commonplace Book," 1774-1776, quoting from On Crimes and Punishment, by criminologist Cesare Beccaria, 1764
kazanski612 is offline  
Old August 6, 2009, 09:29 PM   #67
NightSight
Member
 
Join Date: July 6, 2009
Location: Westminster, CO
Posts: 74
At what point do you draw the gun?? Most of us would agree that trying to draw on someone who has already drawn is a losing proposition. Who's to say he wouldn't have pulled a gun of his own first?


There are those that would say, "At that point shoot him!" Great idea. But chances are you won't be fast enough if you react when they are already in the process of drawing.

Maybe you should do as PeetzaKilla says and draw but keep hidden. I think that gives you a better chance than not having drawn, but who knows if you would be able to pull up your gun and orient (remember we are in a car and not many people practice their presentation from a car) before he would be able to get to a gun and shoot.

I find it very hard to criticize someone's actions without having been there and seen it. Interesting thread though.
__________________
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July; democrats believe every day is April 15." -Ronald Reagan
NightSight is offline  
Old August 6, 2009, 09:37 PM   #68
wally626
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 31, 2009
Posts: 631
I think my first response would be to comely say. I am waiting for the handicap parking spot, it should just be a minute. The other key point is the OP was waiting for the handicap spot, it is possible he is really not able to defend himself physically. Unless the guy showed a knife or gun, he could not hurt me too bad, but a small women or a handicap person may not be in the same situation.
wally626 is offline  
Old August 6, 2009, 09:59 PM   #69
pacerdude
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2008
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 586
Wildalaska: I loved the Bill Clinton thing.
Dr. Strangelove: I go to UGA, and am glad the football games dont turn to armed battles. We would all be screwed, or Kevlar sales would go up .

Microgunner: Im glad no one was hurt, sorry you were put in that crappy situation. I gather, you were in fear for your life, and Im sorry for that and extremely happy everything turned out well.
pacerdude is offline  
Old August 6, 2009, 10:05 PM   #70
Mello2u
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,422
If there is this much difference of opinion here on a pro-gun/pro-2nd Amendment forum, imagine if there had been charges brought by the state on both parties.

The makeup of any jury is most likely to be less informed and biased towards the concept of self-defense as we are. What do you think a jury would decide if the charge of aggravated assault was brought against Microgunner? An Aggravated Assault is "an assault with a deadly weapon without intent to kill." This is a felony in Florida.

My intent in raising this aspect of the use of force and carrying a weapon is that there can be severe consequences even without a shooting.

You have to consider that in carrying a lethal weapon you must have as much control as possible over your emotions and make rational decisions in a split second under highly stressful conditions. You must control your fear, anger and desire for revenge.

These postings can be helpful in doing mental "what ifs" that can help us set parameters for which actions we decide are justified in the cool, calm safety of our homes and with the luxury of time to mull it all over.
__________________
NRA Life Member - Orange Gunsite Member - NRA Certified Pistol Instructor
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society,
they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it.
" Frederic Bastiat
Mello2u is offline  
Old August 6, 2009, 10:32 PM   #71
Wildalaska
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,174
Quote:
Critical is not always smarter.
Unless it comes from me

WildnyahnyahgotyaAlaska TM
Wildalaska is offline  
Old August 6, 2009, 11:29 PM   #72
Trashcan-man
Member
 
Join Date: July 27, 2009
Location: North FL
Posts: 76
I think there are pro's and con's to both sides and truthfully I cannot make an accurate judgement without being put in that situation myself. As a MMQB I think I would have had the gun out, maybe under my shirt or my right thigh, and ready to go. Just remember when a BG "does something" you may or may not have the time to react to save yourself.
__________________
Pepsi is the anti-christ - Me

Omnem dimittite spem, o vos intrantes - The Devine Comedy
Trashcan-man is offline  
Old August 6, 2009, 11:36 PM   #73
Donn_N
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 13, 2009
Location: Sunny Florida
Posts: 138
Quote:
Did the schmuck ever say why he didn't just go around you, OP? I've been behind folks doing that, I just go around and find myself a spot
He probably didn't go around because someone who thought their time was more important than his decided to block the aisle while waiting for a parking space. Having a handicapped permit does not give one carte blanche to inconvenience other folks.
Donn_N is offline  
Old August 7, 2009, 12:08 AM   #74
Sevens
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 28, 2007
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 8,291
Quote:
He probably didn't go around because someone who thought their time was more important than his decided to block the aisle while waiting for a parking space. Having a handicapped permit does not give one carte blanche to inconvenience other folks.
Are you serious? If someone doesn't want to get inconvenienced, someone ought to stay home. There's no right or wrong to a guy waiting on an old lady to pull out no matter who is behind him unless it's an ambulance with lights & siren going.

"Convenience" is exactly that... if it's not convenient, get over it. If you are sitting behind a stopped car in a parking lot and it's not making you happy and polluting your day then check your mirrors and shift in to reverse.

If waiting & stopped in a parking lot is not convenient, is it more convenient to scream, act like a nutbar, physically pound on someone's car while screaming belligerently and then beg the guy to shoot you at close range? When did the idiot's convenience stop being the motivating factor and his range become the priority?

I don't agree with the OP's draw in this situation, but anyone who thinks this incident is the OP's fault (given the info we have here) is delusional.

It's not legal to stop your car on a public street for no reason or to sit stopped at a green light. This was a parking like for crying out loud. If you are inconvenienced, welcome to the free world-- the same world that doesn't revolve around YOU.
__________________
Attention Brass rats and other reloaders: I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.
Sevens is offline  
Old August 7, 2009, 03:01 AM   #75
maestro pistolero
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,047
I doubt that I would have sat in the car while the guy was raging, hitting my car window and threatening me, because you are a sitting duck in a car if the guy were to escalate. There is nowhere to take cover sitting in a car if the guy produced a weapon.

If you can't drive away quickly, get out of the car (take your keys) and move away from the assailant, if possible. Don't turn your back on him.

If he attempts to strike you, soak his face with pepper spray (I always have it with me, especially if I am armed) move to safety ASAP and call the police.

Constantly monitor his hand movements. If they disappear in a furtive move as if for a weapon, yell STOP while you draw to the low ready, seeking cover at the same time. If he produces a weapon you may have no further choice in the matter.

At all times attempt to plot an escape route that provides cover. If you are able to move to safety without endangering yourself or anyone else, do it. But do not turn your back on the assailant until you are free of danger.

The rule of thumb is that the resistance has to fit the threat. There are a lot of variables, including age, physical condition of the parties, the number of assailants, and the type of threat.

In the OP's case, I'm not sure that drawing a weapon was entirely called for, nor were any of the other tactics that I suggested here employed. I wasn't there, of course, so I will curtail any further armchair analysis. My best advise is to have at least one non-lethal option available to you, especially when you are armed.

My two cents.
maestro pistolero is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2013 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13510 seconds with 7 queries