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Old August 10, 2009, 12:04 PM   #76
Brian Pfleuger
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Again, identify your target FIRST. Don't shoot through walls, and don't shoot at motion.
It's pretty well obvious to everybody that we don't shoot unidentified targets making movement or noise behind a wall or door.

There are obvious exceptions to the prohibition on shooting a target that you cannot see. Read my previous post #66 for one example of why I not only WOULD shoot through a closed door but would personally consider it foolish not to.
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Old August 10, 2009, 01:14 PM   #77
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In my mind there is a huge difference in someone beating on a exterior door and someone who is already inside my home, beating on a locked interior door (ie bedroom).

If a person is outside my home and there is a intact barrier(door) between me and the bad-guy. Speaking for myself... I wouldnt feel that enough jeopardy exists for me to fire.
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Old August 10, 2009, 01:36 PM   #78
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I use, and highly recommend the Fenix line of flashlights. My weapon light, and my carry light is the Fenix TK11. This light is powered by 2xCR123 batteries, and puts out a blinding 240 lumens of pure white light, from a Cree LED.
Well heck, if you don't have the disco strobe feature, you really can't expect any disorientation! My Olight Warrior M20 Premium at 230 lumens has the disco strobe feature from its Cree LED of pure white light. Strobing is where it is at nowadays, only as near as I can tell, strobing from a single source doesn't do squat for disorienting anymore than a single bright light.

I think you have bought in too much to the Surefire lights ads where they proclaim the light to be a weapon unto itself.
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Old August 10, 2009, 01:41 PM   #79
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Too likely to end like this: http://content.usatoday.com/communit.../07/68495159/1
That is a story of a person who shot through his door because he heard someone trying to put a key in the lock. No verbal warning, no violent entry attempt.

I would definitely say that a person shouldn't shoot through a door unless they have verbally warned the attempted intruder and unless they feel that the entry is imminent and that it poses a deadly threat.
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Where did this happen? It sounds like something that would've made at least the local news... Can you provide us with a link to a news report of this incident?
Here are some:

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/OnCall/sto...3623085&page=1
Police have said they have no plans to file charges against Logg.
http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefe...1_archive.html
The homeowner then fired a shot through the door with a 12-gauge shotgun, striking Stanley in the stomach. ... The homeowner has not been charged...
http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefe...labels/MS.html
In a Nov. 27 shooting, Jackson homeowner Cedric Marshall wasn't indicted in the death of Marcus D. Rawls, 23, also of Jackson....Published reports said Marshall thought two men were trying to break into his home and shot through the door to scare away the intruders.


Here are some cases where the homeowner was shot through the door. Who thinks it would be reasonable to return fire?
http://www.delcotimes.com/articles/2...8610536119.txt
http://www.wral.com/news/news_briefs/story/3103496/
Quote:
Folks, you are missing one thing here that makes it a moot point.

The BG HAS to come through the door.
No, you're missing the point that the door is a significant tactical advantage because it separates you from someone trying to do you harm. With the door gone there is nothing preventing the criminal from harming you but you and your ability with your firearm. Allowing a criminal to break down your door severely degrades your tactical situation by giving them access to you and anyone else inside.

YES, once the door is gone, you can see to get a clear shot. Unfortunately so can the criminal.
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If a person is outside my home and there is a intact barrier(door) between me and the bad-guy. Speaking for myself... I wouldnt feel that enough jeopardy exists for me to fire.
If the door is holding up then I agree. Once it's clear that the door will not hold much longer then the situation is completely different.

Again, I want to stress that it's absolutely inadvisable, illegal, and immoral to simply shoot through the door at noises and I am NOT saying that anyone should do such a thing. What I'm addressing is the idea that it's never a good idea to shoot through a door. In very specific circumstances it makes a lot of sense to shoot through a door because it gives the defender a good chance of stopping a criminal after the criminal has demonstrated violent intent/ability/motivation but just before the criminal has a good chance of injuring the defender.

The specific circumstances are:
  • Criminal has been clearly warned away verbally.
  • Criminal is clearly making a concerted effort to illegally enter the residence.
  • It is clear that the criminal will imminently (NOT eventually) gain entrance if nothing is done.
  • This set of circumstances is legal grounds for the use of deadly force in the defender's locale.
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Old August 10, 2009, 02:18 PM   #80
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JohnKSa... Thanks for the links. Actually, I was aware of at least one of those precedents, and some others -- but I was hoping eclipsetactical might back up his "I know someone" example with some documentation... still hoping.
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Old August 10, 2009, 06:36 PM   #81
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Many years ago my wife and I checked into a motel (this was back when you used actual keys) and went up to the second floor to go into the room. For some reason the key wouldn't work and I fiddled with it for quite a while until the maid saw us and asked if something was wrong. I showed her the key and siad I couldn't get it to work so we could move in. She thought for a minute and said that this room is already occupied. She knocked on the door and some fellow opened it standing there with a towel around him having just gotten out of the shower. He had decided to stay an extra night and the desk clerk had not noted it.

If he had not been in the shower and heard my working on the door he could easily have judged that someone was trying to break in. We did get a different "suite" that wasn't occupied. Having been on both sides of the door I really suggest that you identify your target before pulling the trigger.
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Old August 10, 2009, 06:57 PM   #82
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Maybe I misread, but at what point PT111 were you trying to break down the motel room door in order to gain entry? We really aren't talking about mistaken doors issues, but somebody getting physically violent with the door.
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Old August 10, 2009, 07:37 PM   #83
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Personal Experience with doors.

2 occasions, ~10 years apart, in different homes (we moved), same guy entering.

#3 son, tall adult male, not living with us, lets himself into home in dark. Dog makes no loud noise, too busy whimpering, dancing, and wiggling with joy. Son stands well clear of bedroom, calls loudly to us, identifying himself.

One time with an old key, 2d time "broke in" by opening a garage window that I thought was a. locked and b. behind a pile of firewood.

He knew what could happen, and identified himself. No harm done (he never told his Mom how he got in the 2d time).

I'm strong on "classifying" the intruder, BG or GG, before shooting. If the door starts to come apart, the intruder has just classified himself. Sorry about that.
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Old August 10, 2009, 08:40 PM   #84
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Maybe I misread, but at what point PT111 were you trying to break down the motel room door in order to gain entry? We really aren't talking about mistaken doors issues, but somebody getting physically violent with the door.
Yep, you hit the nail on the head and I made that remark in an earlier post. One should be able to tell but it seems that some say you cannot or that the difference is such that you should not take the chance. One of the "Hot button" discussions on here has been that if in doubt you should shoot/not shoot. We can all agree on the extreem cases but someone always keeps bringing up the possibilities of what if you don't know and that is where the differences have been in this discussion. If you remember the old keyed rooms you have to remember that you had to shake them pretty hard sometimes.
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Old August 10, 2009, 08:40 PM   #85
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Yes if someone was trying to hoof my door down especially if I closed it on them I would shoot them through it.
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Old August 11, 2009, 03:59 PM   #86
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Prepared for what? Do you think the guy(s) will just stand there in the doorway, lit from behind, while you shoot them?
No I dont watch them kind of movies.

I will wait until I have a good target, will aim the shotgun and let him have a dose. But then I am not a scared nutcase with a high level of self rightiosness. We country folk know how to handle this kind of scenario. I would have been alerted to any danger by the sounds of my 4 dogs I would have plenty of time to get ready. If and I do mean if anyone got that far he would be very lucky indeed.

Dont shoot thru doors. You do as you wish. I would recommend moving to a safer locastion.
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Old August 12, 2009, 01:52 AM   #87
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I would recommend moving to a safer locastion.
And how would that work?
"Excuse me sir. Please stop kicking down my door, the movers are on the way and will be here shortly. We're moving somewhere safer; after we're gone you can resume your attempts to break in."
I understand what you're saying but this is not about where you live, it's about what to do if you find yourself in your house with someone breaking down your door. It's probably MORE likely to happen in some areas than in others, but it's not realistic to imply that there are areas where it never happens.
Quote:
I will wait until I have a good target, will aim the shotgun and let him have a dose.
So you think that's the way these scenarios always play out? The bad guy presents a good target without posing any threat at all to the good guy. The good guy aims, takes a shot at the good target presented by the bad guy, the bad guy falls down incapacitated and all is instantly well.

That's not reality. In the real world bad guys don't always present a good target (since they don't like being shot any more than the good guys do) and instead of standing in the doorway waiting for a "good dose" they often move quickly and shoot back or otherwise do their level best to kill or injure the good guy while remaining uninjured themselves.

It's your choice to wait to engage the bad guy until your door is down and no longer provides you any security, but don't kid yourself into believing that you're guaranteed a good target to shoot at or that you'll be able to resolve the situation with a single shot without ever being in any real danger yourself. Life has a nasty way of being far messier than that.
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Old August 12, 2009, 02:14 AM   #88
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i know my target is trying to get through my door. he's right there in front of me. I don't need to see him visually. I can see him mentally. He's the monster on the other side coming. I already said GTFO I gots me a gun and I called the cops. The dog is barking, my shotgun and 45 are in my hand and beltline. I pump a round into the shotgun, and again I hear and see my door move. My lock is almost broken, and I can hear kicking and moving. I don't think I need to wait anymore.
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Old August 12, 2009, 06:58 AM   #89
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i know my target is trying to get through my door. he's right there in front of me. I don't need to see him visually. I can see him mentally. He's the monster on the other side coming. I already said GTFO I gots me a gun and I called the cops. The dog is barking, my shotgun and 45 are in my hand and beltline. I pump a round into the shotgun, and again I hear and see my door move. My lock is almost broken, and I can hear kicking and moving. I don't think I need to wait anymore.
That works for me, whether the door is into the house or is an interior door, or is even the door to my hotel room.

Others need to check the laws in their juridictions. In at least one state, at least part of the perp has to be inside the house; some states may require retreat if possible; and in not all jurisdictions is a hotel room covered.

That may not preclude one from having a reasonable belief, etc., and may only mean that the presumption is not automatic, but one should know the laws.
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Old August 12, 2009, 04:36 PM   #90
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this is not about where you live, it's about what to do if you find yourself in your house with someone breaking down your door.
I outlined my plan, some do not think it is a good one, it is my plan which is better than no plan. Anyone kicks open my bedroom door which is little more than hollow 1/4 in plywood framed he has only one way to proceed, directly into my weapon. No fancy anti chambers, nothing for him to hide behind or use as protection. I do not assume anything. I can hit what I aim at, got 2 deer last opener on the run with the shotgun. They were running full speed not standing still.

Security is very important for me in my home, I do not carry 24/7 but a weapon is always close to hand.

The dogs help a lot as well as my location.

If anyone is living in fear of their surroundings, they can change that now cant they?

So if someone is kicking in my door, I grab the shotgun, get all into the bedroom wife is on the 911 line, I am aiming for the door, if anyone opens it well I wouldnt want to be them.

Chances of this hapenning in my neck o the woods? very slim.

I have been shot, I will do my best to keep this from happening again.
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Old August 12, 2009, 05:32 PM   #91
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http://www.nytimes.com/1994/11/10/us...r-s-guilt.html
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Out by the noisy sawmill, the trailer parks, the taxidermist and the scrubby bait shops where Bobby Crabtree lives, there is very little mystery why he shot the daughter he doted on early Sunday morning.

And the idea of blaming Mr. Crabtree for what happened when his high-spirited 14-year-old, Matilda Kaye, decided to play a practical joke on him, is far removed from the minds of most. He might have acted a little hastily, some say tentatively. But there are more people who not only sympathize with the 53-year-old ice-company driver but see themselves doing the same thing. It all came down to a matter of seconds, when Matilda jumped out of a closet and shouted, "Boo!" as her parents came home after midnight.
This is the horrific possibility all of us parents must face and is the single case that made me more resolute about target acquisition... My son was a few months shy of 5 when this occurred and being fruit of my loins... he was already showing signs of making stupid childish mistakes in seeking a laugh from folks...
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Old August 12, 2009, 06:01 PM   #92
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There are obvious exceptions to the prohibition on shooting a target that you cannot see.
Sure. An ID'd target can move to dim light and kill you from there. Don't shoot at movenment? Seems to be a lot of hard and fast rules for some of us that might not hold up in the real world.

Last edited by Nnobby45; August 12, 2009 at 06:12 PM.
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Old August 12, 2009, 06:16 PM   #93
Brian Pfleuger
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Yes, but what are the odds you'd ever need to do that. So why consider the possibility?
Oh, you think you're funny now don't you!? What the....? You edited your comment away.... don't worry, I DO have a sense of humor.


I consider all possibilities that I can think of. Some of them are so remote that it may take mere milli-moments (trademarked, patented, copywrit word there) to realize that there is no sense in expending further energy. Some are quite remote (this being one) but require no significant energy or time, except what we waste on the internet, to ponder.
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Old August 12, 2009, 07:31 PM   #94
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if someone was breaking in an inner door and not responding to my yells id pop off a few rounds. now if someone was trying to get in my front door id try to get a visual through a window. then if it was a BG id call the police as my rifle is aimed at the door. then if they kick it open ill be ready to pop a few rounds into them
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Old August 14, 2009, 07:53 PM   #95
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I was taking a LE class and at one point we asked our instructor the same question. He was retired Coast Guard (Warrant Officer) LE, was chief of police in a small town in Virginia (Cant' remember the name Ill ask when I see him), and had over 40 years under his belt. His answer surprised all of us. It was something along the lines of "Only an idiot would wait for his door to be broken down and his family to be in danger to react. You start at the headboard at the top of the door, fire one shot there, wait ten seconds to see if the intruder decides to stop, next 2 shots center mass."
I would agree with this entirely.

For those of you who think you'd wait and then have all the time in the world to make your perfect shot -- good luck. Within seconds of the BG finally getting through your door, you're toast. You'll be wishing you didn't wait.

Protection (in this case, the door) is valuable... don't waste it on a hope and prayer.
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Old August 14, 2009, 09:02 PM   #96
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I am not sure the Coasties do a lot of door defense, do they?
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Old August 14, 2009, 09:32 PM   #97
Brian Pfleuger
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I would agree with this entirely.
Everything except the warning shot. If I'm in enough danger that I'm pulling the trigger then the warnings are over. Pulling the trigger is the absolute last thing I want to do and as such if I do it, I mean it.
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