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Old July 30, 2009, 12:35 PM   #26
Philo_Beddoe
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Quote:
As far as I know Saiga has much lower penetrating power than a regular military AK 47. ?
Um why?

Its chambered for the same 7.62x.39 round the military AK's are.
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Old July 30, 2009, 02:33 PM   #27
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This is BS. 922r compliance only becomes an issue if you add a pistol grip, folding stock, bayonet lug, etc
Au' Contrair...

http://home.comcast.net/~navy87guy/home/922r.html

"- High capacity (greater than 10 round for rifles, 5 rounds for shotgun) magazines"
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Old July 30, 2009, 05:11 PM   #28
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Would buying an sks be the smarter move over the wasr. The guns going to have to be a shooter. As in reliability which one is better. And which one will last longer in the long run?
I'd say no, unless you want a SKS too.

The AK replaced the SKS in the real world for a reason.

Both will out last you, and in most cases, out shoot you too.

Quote:
2. Stripper clips. Yeah, it only holds 10 rounds in the most common configuration, but it is a LOT cheaper to own 100 stripper clips than 20-30 AK magazines. Carrying ammo is a lot easier since the clips are lighter than magazines. Reloading with clips is faster than mags since you don't have anything to clear from the gun prior to loading.
The biggest problem with stripper clips is, they are 10 rounds.

The second biggest problem is, they usually dont hold 10 rounds reliably, especially if your pulling them from a pouch, so you often dont get ten rounds in the gun.

The next problem is they get easily lost or damaged if your working the gun like it was meant to be shot (not so much an issue off a bench).

Carrying ammo is about the same, and the standard load out for both is the same. Yes, the mags are a little heavier, but they are a lot easier to deal with, and an AK mag is a weapon by itself.

Reloading realistically takes about the same time, and when your done, the AK already has 20 more rounds in the gun. A properly working AK will drop the mag without touching it, and even if it didnt, its easily knocked out with the reload. You can do the whole thing without removing your hand from the grip too.

Quote:
3. The SKS has a last-shot bolt hold open feature. The AK does not.
Thats really not an issue, unless of course you want to make it an issue. If its an issue at all, its simply a training issue. Many miltary rifles dont have a BHO, and like any of them, you simply reload the gun if it stops shooting, or anytime you get a chance. Either way, you always stroke the charging handle after the reload, that way the gun is ALWAYS loaded when your done.

The sights on the SKS are really no different than the AK's. The SKS does have a slightly longer sight radius, but its really no big deal. The one thing sight wise the AK has over the SKS is, its much more optics friendly and ready. The best thing going here is the Ultimak/Aimpoint set up. It brings the AK into line with most of the other red dotted military arms around now.
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Old July 30, 2009, 05:26 PM   #29
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The AK-47 was designed for farm boys. It's rough, tough and crude. Not a bad choice for a semi-auto, but very limited. The AR-15 is a much better choice. It can be customized to whatever you want or need. Pay the extra bucks and get the AR-15.
Note: I do have an AK, but that was after I had the AR-15.
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Old July 30, 2009, 05:46 PM   #30
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my ffl has an ar-15 with a colt hbar that he would take 675 shipped for....
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Old July 30, 2009, 06:01 PM   #31
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Well from the start of my hobby ive always wanted an AR-15 but i thought i couldnt afford it since the prices right now are insane in some cases. But i like both guns its just a matter of deciding now. Money is a factor but if i could get a nice AR for 650-750 i would jump all over it.
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Old July 30, 2009, 06:04 PM   #32
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If you have a preference, then save your money and get what "you think" (you dont really know, trust me ) you want the most. Sooner or later, your probably going to have at least one of each anyway.

Both are good guns, and both are fun guns, and neither will let you down if you do the same for them.
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Old July 30, 2009, 06:07 PM   #33
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ok question then for the AR, cheaper to by the lower and upper or cheaper to buy one all ready complete
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Old July 30, 2009, 06:12 PM   #34
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Where are you guys getting these guns so cheap!? Around here an low end AK is $650 and an AR is over $1000!!

I need to move!!
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Old July 30, 2009, 06:14 PM   #35
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Personally, I'd buy a complete gun from a known maker before I'd buy another "kit" gun, at any stage. Its not that you cant get what your looking for, but it can be a challenge to "really" end up with what you want, for the money you think its going to cost.


The best thing you can do right now is, stop trying to do this on the cheap. You might as well get off on the right foot, and buy the best you "cant" afford right off, it will be cheaper in the long run. If you dont have the money right now, you just have to find a way to get it, or just work towards it. You'll be a lot happier in the long run. I've been doing this for quite awhile now, and if I had back all the money I wasted on cheap stuff, guns, gear, ect, I'd have a bunch more "nice" stuff, guns and gear......
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Old July 30, 2009, 07:33 PM   #36
ISC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5whiskey

Au' Contrair...

http://home.comcast.net/~navy87guy/home/922r.html

"- High capacity (greater than 10 round for rifles, 5 rounds for shotgun) magazines"
"Navyguy"'s blog is hardly a authoritative source for info. He did link to a .gov site with good information, however. That link:
http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text....2.1.1&idno=27

If you read the code you'll see the applicable section:
Quote:
(b) A semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of—

(1) A folding or telescoping stock,

(2) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon,

(3) A bayonet mount,

(4) A flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor, and

(5) A grenade launcher;
Magazine capacity isn't mentioned anywhere in the rifle section of the code, only the shotgun section.
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Old July 30, 2009, 08:07 PM   #37
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Get this bad azz model....

http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct439.aspx
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Old July 30, 2009, 08:31 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISC
Mak 90s are much better guns than a WASR, which is why they cost more than WASRs. The deal you got was either a very good deal, or it happened quite a while ago
I got it about a month ago. It was a very good deal, but since then I have seen several in the $500 range with no ammo.

If the choice comes down to AR vs. AK; I say go AR. But, keep in mind that you will get a lot better AK for the money. Eventually you are going to want both. It's happened to all of us. My advice is to pick the low hanging fruit. Get a nice AK for about $500-$600 and then start saving for the $1,000+ AR.
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Old July 30, 2009, 11:18 PM   #39
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AR kits from Delton or Model1 are still rather affordable. Not trying to steer you away from an AK, just pointing out you have options.



As far as 922r goes: the ATF would not consider the Saiga as an acceptable sporting rifle for importation until Izhmash significantly altered the magwell components so that it would not readily accept available high capacity magazines. This is also the reason why WASRs are imported in single stack configuration and then need to be dremeled out.

Thus, by adding a high capacity magazine you have, in the eyes of the ATF, you have 'assembled' a rifle that would not have qualified for importation and violated 922r.


Here's an ATF response concerning adding a hi-cap mag to an SKS:

Quote:
ATF wrote:

Dear LESchwartz

This refers to your letter to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), Firearms Technology Branch, dated September 24,2003, asking about the modification of an SKS rifle to permit acceptance of a detachable "duckbill-style" ammunition magazine.

Title 18, United States Code (U.S.C.), Chapter 44, Section 922(r), states, in part, that it shall be “unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under Section 925 (d) (3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes….”

Currently, SKS rifles capable of accepting a large capacity ammunition-feeding device are prohibited from importation. Therefore, modifying an SKS to accept a large capacity ammunition-feeding device would be a violation of 922 (r).
We thank you for your inquiry and trust the foregoing has been responsive.

Sincerely yours,

Sterling Nixon
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch


So to follow the letter of the law you need to play the 10 parts or less song and dance.
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Old July 31, 2009, 08:04 AM   #40
lipadj46
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Saigas are only $350 now:

http://classicarms.us/

I would get one and for about $150 you can you a very nice conversion. Believe me conversions are not that hard.
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Old July 31, 2009, 08:27 AM   #41
buzz_knox
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The best source for information on AKs and for good deals on the AK themselves, is theakforum.net. I'd highly recommend looking there.
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Old July 31, 2009, 12:25 PM   #42
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Holt:

I built my AR from a complete lower I found for a song and a dance about 3 years ago, then bought a simple A2 configuration upper with bolt carrier group for about $400.

Total price for my AR was about $550.

The lower is a Cavalry Arms polymer setup, and the upper is a Delton with 20" chrome lined barrel.

I'm really more of an M14 shooter than an AR shooter, but I like this rifle when all is said and done. The only malfunctions it has had are a function of poorly assembled handloads when I first started playing with reloading .223. Since then, it has run quite well.

Quote:
Both will out last you, and in most cases, out shoot you too.
While this was regarding the SKS versus AK debate, I disagree. The SKS was designed around the concept of reasonable marksmanship. The AK was not designed to shoot at targets at rifle range. An average SKS will outshoot an average AK on just about any day of the week.

And... the poorest AR that wasn't built by a blind monkey with rat-tail files will outshoot either of them. From field positions or from the bench.

If accuracy is important to you, Holt, and you favor the AR design, then hold off and get an AR. You're talking about a price difference of maybe $200 in today's gun market. That's less than 500 rounds of ammunition to sacrifice for a much better gun.
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Old July 31, 2009, 05:23 PM   #43
AK103K
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The SKS and AK share the same basic sights, same round, and have pretty much the same effective range. The SKS does have a slightly longer sight radius, but for me, I really dont see a whole lot of difference between them from field positions. I suppose if you shoot them off a bench from sand bags, you might, then again, you might not. Then theres always the biggest influence with any of the 7.62x39's, which is the ammo. It can often vary widely, even with the same maker lot to lot. I've had lots of Wolf that will shoot 3" at 200 yards with my SAR, and lots that barely stayed on paper at the same distance. This is an issue the AR''s usually dont have.

The AR's will usually out shoot both from a "group" standpoint, but they are set up better as a "target" rifle. I find they dont do as well when shot more realistically. When you compare an AK and AR set up with red dots, they usually shoot pretty much the same, or at least mine have. The SKS is left out here for the most part, as a good system for the optic, really isnt available.

I routinely shoot both my AR's and AK's at 200 yards from field positions, using both iron sights and red dots. At 200 yards, the hits from either on people or silhouette targets, that have no specific aiming point, are usually pretty similar. The AR might shoot a little tighter, but the AK is also right in there. At 300 yards, the AR's do better, but the AK's still make good hits COM.

If you shoot all of them a little more realistically, the AR and AK are not all that far apart, and easier to shoot with and operate over the SKS, but all will do alright if you can. If you compare the SKS to the others in this respect though, its not to hard to see why the others are superior.

I think its sometimes hard to get good accuracy comparisons between any of them due to people having different skill levels and shooting differently. Some shooters tend to want to compare "group size", and some are happy with "good hits". I think knowing when one is more important than the other is more important yet.

The key words to any of it is, "on demand". What "you" can do "on demand" with any of them is what you can realistically expect, not what you do once in awhile or what someone else might or might not be able to do.

Also when comparisons are made, the guns need to be realistic comparisons. There seem to be a lot of apples to oranges things going on in this respect, and that also goes for any of them, not just AR/AK comparisons.
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Old August 1, 2009, 03:23 PM   #44
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I was in the same boat about 6 months ago. I came very close to getting a WASR but I sucked it up and waited a little longer and got an AR. My reasons were this:

- If I am limited to semi-auto, I want accuracy
- 5.56 will put down an unarmored assailant. Maybe 7.62x39 has some more stopping power, but looters don't wear body armor.
- I clean my guns, and the AR reliability issue is vastly over-played anyway
- I plan on having my gun for a lifetime, an extra $200 will seem insignificant in 20 years
- Since it's the US military service rifle, if society were to collapse you could theoretically capture ammo for it
- Everyone and their mom has an AR which means parts will always be available
- The battery of arms is already muscle memory to me since I'm in the military.

But hey, if you want it NOW I don't think you would be ill-served with an AK. If you're trying to hit someone at 300 meters you'd need an AR or something, but you'd have no legal justification for shooting at someone that far away anyway. Forget the price (within reason) and get what you want and what you'll train with - whatever that is - even if you have to wait. I'm glad I did.
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Old August 1, 2009, 04:29 PM   #45
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You said "semi-auto rifle" and actually that encompasses a lot of ground! If you're willing to join a local gun club and meet the Civilian Marksmanship Program regulations you can (and should) consider the M1 Carbine and the M1 Garand. You can have either from the CMP for under $500 which is a smoking deal for a either great old war horse. The M1 Carbine is a boatload of fun to shoot!

The Ruger Mini-14 and Mini-30 should not be overlooked if you can find an inexpensive one used but in good condition. Also, Ruger makes a 9mm and a .40 caliber carbine (PC9 and PC40) that are both a hoot.

Marlin makes a 9mm auto carbine.

Hi-Point makes a series of very inexpensive and affordable carbines (the new stock for the 9mm carbine is reportely quite an improvement).

Remington makes a semi-auto rifle called the 7400 that comes in a variety of calibers. A 7400 with synthetic stock would be inexepensive and a lot of rifle.

I have a Mak-90 and a DPMS AR-15 and both shoot reliably and well. The AR is accurate, the AK is not, ammo for both is still inexpensive. I have an M1 Garand and an M1 Carbine, they are awesome pieces of history and a blast to shoot but ammo for both is expensive. I have a Hi-Point Carbine in 9mm and it's both fun to shoot and inexpensive to boot.

My suggestion? Drop less than $300 on the new Hi-Point Carbine with the new stock and see how you like that. Then you can decide if you're done with the "tacticool" thing yet or you want to step up to an AR or AK. You may find that you crave a tack driving bolt rifle!

Cheers,
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Old August 1, 2009, 05:03 PM   #46
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Quote:
.....AR reliability issue is vastly over-played anyway
The two biggest internet falsehoods are, the AR is unreliable and the AK is inaccurate.
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Old August 1, 2009, 06:38 PM   #47
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The M-16 and the M-60 are both unreliable pieces of junk. Fortunately they're both headed out of proverbial door.
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Old August 1, 2009, 09:25 PM   #48
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The M-16 and the M-60 are both unreliable pieces of junk. Fortunately they're both headed out of proverbial door.
<shakes head><face palm>

Well, the M60 has pretty much been there for almost 20 years now, except in limited applications. The 240 is now in mainstream widespread use, and it's about reliable as the M60... meaning pretty darn good if you know what you're doing, and not worth a crap if you don't.

The M16 can be as reliable as anything money can buy.
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Old August 1, 2009, 09:38 PM   #49
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Oh man, so inevitably the "first rifle" thread turns into an AK vs AR thread. I was just looking at the "firing line gun show" threads and there are a lot of options there. I think you'll find you can get more gun for your budget than you think. Some of those older ads sound like they're desperate. Look for the ones that have been bumped a few times and see if you can deal. You should check it out.
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Old August 1, 2009, 10:03 PM   #50
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Quote:
<shakes head><face palm>
This calls for more than a standard facepalm, we need a





Anyway, lets say I go over to del-ton and order a 20" rifle kit... $465+s/h

that leaves you some room to work with for a stripped lower, some you can get for under $200

As for AK-47's, I picked up my WASR-10 for $515 used and it's more accurate than my Yugo M59/66 so I'm happy.
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