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Old July 27, 2009, 03:45 PM   #26
Dragon55
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Unexpected break in my Winchester pump with 5 00 buck.
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Old July 27, 2009, 03:49 PM   #27
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I prefer a shotgun over a pistol anytime. Until recently I was a college student living in a apartment. I always prefer to have a shotgun so I dont have to worry about over penitration and injuring a neighbor. Now I live in an ajoined townhouse and still have my 870 close by.
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Old July 27, 2009, 03:50 PM   #28
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Always... I can not imagine ever being better with a pistol than I am with an 18-20 inch barreled shot gun...
But that could have a bit to do with the shotgun having been my primary firearm for 30+ years
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Old July 27, 2009, 04:13 PM   #29
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They called them "Greeners" why? ease of use. easy to work, load, fire all in one weapon. Versatile too. Loads come in many types, 8 shot very lite good for in house, down to 00 buck or go heavy with a slug capable of stopping the largest animals on this planet. So easy a cave man can do it
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Old July 27, 2009, 04:55 PM   #30
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when there are more than one BG comming at me close range, maybe put enough hurt on all of them with one shot to turn them away, if not at least slow them all down a bit.
At "close range" (in your living room, say) the "pattern" may be about equal to the distance between a couple of shirt buttons, and one shot won't be slowing them all down.

However, if you point precisely, I like your chance of stopping each one you hit (with individual shots) in their tracks..

Last edited by Nnobby45; July 27, 2009 at 05:05 PM.
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Old July 27, 2009, 05:26 PM   #31
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1. Hurricane Katrina 2.0
2. Piracy (if the thugs are onboard and below deck)
3. Guarding a stairwell in an apartment building during a disaster.
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Old July 27, 2009, 07:02 PM   #32
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use the siga if you want a carbine and a shotgun... if its comfortable... I like bird shot but if you can get bean bag rounds... well that might be more fun (I am saying this in regards to the fact that you may not want to have to say you killed them...)
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Old July 27, 2009, 07:52 PM   #33
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Ummm... they called them "Greener's" ....

.... because they were made by the gunmaker, W.W. Greener, out of Birmingham, England. Nothing to do with ease of use by new guys.

As creative theories go, though, it's better than many.
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Old July 27, 2009, 08:11 PM   #34
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I see a lot of people mentioning the penetrating power of rifles being greater than a shotgun. I was read the "Ammo Oracle" on AR15.com the other day and read this article:

http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/project/term_jspsafe.html

And other somewhat related articles:

http://ammo.ar15.com/ammo/project/term_velocity.html
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot12.htm

I thought I had a couple more somewhere else but I can't find them anywhere.

I don't claim to be an expert on the ammo penetration of a rifle vs. a shotgun, I just found these articles interesting and was wondering about people's opinions about .223 or 5.56 rounds and wall penetration.

And will the 5.56 or .223 penetrate farther and still stay as lethal as say, a shotgun shooting 00 buckshot?


If anyone has anymore reading on the subject, I would greatly appreciate the links! Thanks, and I hope I've provided some food for thought!
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Old July 27, 2009, 10:54 PM   #35
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If anyone has anymore reading on the subject, I would greatly appreciate the links! Thanks, and I hope I've provided some food for thought!
Check the link I posted on page 1 to the penetration tests done by Rob Pincus and The Best Defense.
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Old July 28, 2009, 02:17 AM   #36
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Without going into the penetration issue, I use a shotgun as my preferred home defense weapon of choice when I am in a barricaded position.

I am the last line of defense for my family and that threat has to be stopped NOW! Nothing is more effective in my opinion at delivering the massive amount of power that the shotgun does in as easy to handle package. Yes, rifles too deliver massive amounts of power, but at what cost?

That's where things like recoil and penetration come into play. Out to 100 Yards give me a shotgun unless I have to make a precise shot in a crowd. Then it's time for the rifle. If you want a rifle because you are more familiar with that platform all I have to say is, familiarity is not a good enough reason to select a rifle when the recommendation for home defense has historically been the shotgun. There must be a reason for that. I suggest that you train on the shotgun and get competent with it. I am having to train on the rifle.

Get familiar and competent with both the rifle and the shotgun and then it won't matter much. You will be able to run with whatever you have at the moment. That's why I'm training on the rifle.

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Old July 28, 2009, 03:30 AM   #37
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I hold the opinion or beleif I guess, inside 50 yards or maybe a little less, nothing is more effective or devastating than a shotgun. Centuries of street cred as a one shot stopper. In fear of my life suddenly and in position to take out the offender, I would want a 12 gauge pump, 00 buck, a Mossberg for the tang safety, and indoors, a bead sight. First choice. second for HD, a N-frame .45 ACP or 'loose' 1911 with 230gr. HST or Pow'rball in the 1911. Both shotgun and handgun options would be SOL on even a puny 200. IIA vest if the intruder was prepared that way. A headshot would be simple from a shotgun at room distance even under the stress of having to shoot a man dead to save myself and loved ones.
A Ghost ring setup (such as the Mossy 930 SPX, FN SLP, Wilson Standard Model, and Benelli M2 Tactical) and rifled slugs can work out to 100 yards (carbine range). Beyond that, reach for the .308 MBR or precision rifle.

You have an excellent collection I like the inclusion of the 6.5 and .50 beowulf. You seem to favor the urban carbine and must know it has pretty much consolidated/eliminated the use of submachine guns, shotguns, and full length "assault rifles" everywhere. Clint Smith's doing I think. But those weapons still have their own niches and things they can do better. In my example above, a shotgun can handle business within range most carbines get used. I think they're all good and useful.

Comfort with the weapon is paramount. This girl I was seeing last winter was 5' 9" and 110, and needed a gun for her apartment. She was a dancer and had large amounts of cash on her always, in a complex overflowing with Heroin, Oxy and glass dealers. I figured something with a stock would be the way to go for someone who never fired a gun. Thought about an auto carbine in a pistol cal or shorty lever in a revolver cal, or a M1 carbine. One day she spotted my new GSG-5 behind the seat which had fired reliably for me, and it became hers at that moment. HD with a .22? Damn right, the way she tap danced on those Rockstar and monster cans. First time and superb shooting Later took her to try out the 870 20 gauge 7 shot, and a few revolvers. Not interested. I don't tell this to reccomend .22lr as a suitable SD cartridge. But in this case, it was the GSG, or the butcher knife she was using before. I'm just glad she has a firearm and will use it if needed, though I miss that, second funnest toy I ever had (first was my 22/45). But an example that the best weapon is the one you know inside and out, spend time with, operation comes naturally. for me that would be a mini 14. But when it's do or die, I'll take the undisputed power of a shotgun (and a mossberg pump is also just as familiar)
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Old July 28, 2009, 05:37 AM   #38
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Contrary to popular belief, . . . neither the Winchester lever gun, nor Colts SAA pistol won the West. The lowly shotgun holds that honor, . . . able to put quail or bear on the dinner plate, . . . the kids, mom, or dad could use it, . . . almost everyone had one or more, . . . less expensive to shoot than a similar power rifle.

Above and beyond that, . . . military folks like them for their firepower, . . . mine can put 84 each, 38 caliber pellets down range in less than 3 seconds in my 64 year old hands (7 x 3" x 12 gauge 00 buck rounds). I'll be reloaded in 6 more seconds and sending another 84 down range, . . . air express.

Mobs, . . . zombies, . . . coyotes, . . . gang bangers, . . . and even a few selected Democrats have focused their respect toward the old scattergun.

May God bless,
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Old July 28, 2009, 12:18 PM   #39
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Quantity having a quality all its own does not mean it's quality is superior to the quality of quality.

Eighty-four .38 caliber round balls @ 1300 fps is going to have a hard time matching the effect of eight .30 caliber 168 gr Hornady Amaxs @ 2600 fps, which is about what I can do for aimed fire from my M1A with iron sights at shotgun distances. And when you consider that the M1A does it while allowing my twelve more rounds before I have to reload, has less recoil than most buckshot rounds I've put through my 870, and gives me the option of covering much longer ranges, or loading to defeat body armor and hard barriers, all without sacrificing anything in terms of speed or risk of over penetration with defensive ammunition, and it is readily apparent why many squad cars now days are leaving the shotgun in the trunk for specialized applications and rolling with a carbine for general use. The rifle is more versatile. The shotgun won the West. Fine. So did horses. I still drive car and shoot a rifle.
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Old July 28, 2009, 02:20 PM   #40
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12 ga. pump

Nothing signals danger quite like the unmistakable sound of racking a shell into the chamber of a shotgun. Except maybe a rattlesnake. Definite deterrant value there, but i don't want rattlesnakes in my house.

For close quarters, especially in your home, you don't want to spray and pray. Twelve shots of panic-fired jacketed .308s is formidable, but a miss is flying far and fast to who knows where. A single shotgun shell at close range sends an ounce or more (an ounce is 437.5 grains, people, compared to 125gr 9mm, or 225gr .45, or 55gr 5.56) of lead in nice tight patterns - regardless of choke or shot size - inside 10 yards. Place that in the COM and the BG is down hard. Yes, energy is exponential to velocity and only linear to mass, but mass is a constant that cannot be ignored. Heavy things simply take longer to stop. Besides, if you're defending your family, do you want a little .3" hole (made with 2500ft/lbs but with a very high chance of pass-thru) or a gnarly 2" hole (made with 2000 ft/lbs that disperses all its energy in the wound) in the BG chest?

I think Pete is correct - bird shot doesn't over-penetrate secondary or tertiary walls, but certainly still packs a wallop at short distance. The Pincus video is interesting, if not purely scientific. The beauty of lead shot is that at close range, it acts similar to a solid projectile but as it spreads or encounters resistance, it separates and acts like individual light projectiles, spending its energy faster hence the lower penetration at distance.

Don't get me wrong - i like all my guns for their various uses. But my rifles are all hunting tools, powerful and accurate at long-range. For HD, in the middle of the night, I'd start with the shotgun. Just point and shoot. And repeat as necessary.
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Old July 28, 2009, 04:02 PM   #41
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because they were made by the gunmaker, W.W. Greener, out of Birmingham, England. Nothing to do with ease of use by new guys.
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If you have a genuine English "W Greener" it should be a muzzle loader, either flintlock or percussion, made between 1829 and 1869. W Greener made firearms in Birmingham, England. His son, W W Greener disagreed with his father's decision to continue making only percussion guns and started his own business in 1855. After the father's death in 1869, the son took over the business and any guns made after that year will be marked "W W Greener". WW had offices in Birmingham, London, Paris, New York, and Montreal. The family business existed until at least 1965.
Until 1869 all were muzzle loaders not cartridge.

Whereas this was a common name:

Quote:
Greeners. greenhorns, inexperienced people, particularly new immigrants,
The short barreled "coach" guns of the time were easy to load and fire on another.

Least this is what I was told by my Uncle he collected guns from the revolutionary time until the 1900s. Some of the guns he had were carried by relatives in those wars.
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Old July 28, 2009, 06:32 PM   #42
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Sidebar question...can your ears handle a 12G Mossberg 00 indoors? I wonder if I ever have to use it to defend myself but I guess a few weeks of ringing is worth your life....
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Old July 28, 2009, 06:36 PM   #43
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I was wishing I had my 870, loaded with slugs, when I ran into a big black bear who had no fear of people while camping last week...

Luckily, I was able to back away safely, but the rest of the trip I was feeling a bit underpowered with my .357 magnum. We saw the same bear several times.
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Old July 28, 2009, 07:02 PM   #44
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Except maybe a rattlesnake. Definite deterrant value there, but i don't want rattlesnakes in my house.
I disagree... that would be awesome... if you could take their teeth away...
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Old July 28, 2009, 11:11 PM   #45
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When would a shotgun be your first choice?
I'm trying to decide if it's really worth getting a tactical style shotgun (Remington 870 or Mossberg) with all the associated overhead such as training, practice, etc.


What type of situation would make reaching for a shotgun your first choice?
At home, a shotgun would be my first choice always.

Tactical shotgun? Only if you want to play at being tactical. I have a bargain-basement Mossberg 500 with an 18" barrel. If 5 rounds of 00 buck out of that wouldn't stop the problem, adding extended mag tubes, sidesaddles, flashlights, slings, and breaching attachments aren't going to help me. (For those who like tactical accessories for shotguns, more power to you, and don't let me discourage you, but I don't think they're necessary for the average person.)

Training to use a shotgun for someone who is experienced with firearms should not require a lot of overhead. Training to break 25 straight at trap requires a lot of overhead. Training to keep your buckshot patterns within an 18" circle at 7 yards, not so much.
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Old July 29, 2009, 08:04 AM   #46
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Is the shotgun my first choice?

Well it all depends on the situation.

If I have enough "lead time" when a situation developes, then I would choose my Remington Model 870 (loaded with #4 buckshot). However, if it is immediate threat and close by, then I would choose my Glock 21 (night sights/Streamlight tactical light) lying on my nightstand next to my bed.

Shotgun is in corner next to bed. Also, the racking of a shell into the chamber of my 870 makes a very loud and ominous sound which should alert the bad guy I am seriously armed. If it doesn't, then he gets to meet Mr. Remington up close and personal.....
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Old July 29, 2009, 08:13 AM   #47
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i bought a police auction mossberg entry gun and turned it into a tactical shotgun back before the word tactical was stamped on everything. With a sidesaddle shell holder, lazer, flashlight and collapsible stock its the perfect "what was that noise" gun. Its got everything i need all together, it was cheap, and like someone else said, looking at the business end of a 12guage might be all someone needs to change their mind and leave you alone.
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Old July 29, 2009, 10:21 AM   #48
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The choke of the barrel of a shotgun can determine the spread of the pattern of shot which exits the barrel. At Gunsite we tested the five shotguns that the 4 students used going through the shotgun class and John Satterwight's (the instructor) shotgun too.

Clint Smith was a student in that class with another instructor. They both used a Benelli semi-auto. I was using a Remington 870 with a 20" barrel with rifle sights and I suspect an open choke.

We found that when shooting a 12ga load with 9 pellets of 00 buckshot at Pepper Poppers that we could reliably knock one down out to about 25 yards with any of the shotguns. A 12 pellet load extended the range a couple of yards. It seems to take at least 4 pellets center of mass or higher to knock down a Pepper Popper at that range. Satterwight's gun had a full choke and could knock down the targets out to about 35 yards.

From that experience I now consider my shotgun to be limited to 25 yards with buckshot. Of course slugs are a different matter.
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Old July 29, 2009, 10:34 AM   #49
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From that experience I now consider my shotgun to be limited to 25 yards with buckshot. Of course slugs are a different matter.
Which is of course more than 10 times the distance of the average SD encounter and probably at least 3, maybe 5, times the distance one would be shooting inside a home.
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Old July 29, 2009, 10:58 AM   #50
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Holy bullcrap Batman!

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Nothing signals danger quite like the unmistakable sound of racking a shell into the chamber of a shotgun.
O, I get it. You're talking about when the music get really dramatic and the hero says some catchy one liner and punctuates by racking a shell in his 12 gauge?

In reality, while racking a shell in your chamber for dramatic effect works well in the movies and stands a good chance of scaring an intruder, it's tactically foolish. It provides vital intel to the intruder that you do not possess about him/them, namely, your location and that you are armed. Intel is the difference between victory and a sucking chest wound on the battlefield, and anywhere you stand a decent chance of exchanging gunfire is officially a battlefield.

Even if you do go with a shotgun, you're far better off just keeping the thing loaded and leaving Steven Segal in Hollywood.

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Except maybe a rattlesnake. Definite deterrant value there, but i don't want rattlesnakes in my house.
About the only thing in your post that makes sense.

Quote:
For close quarters, especially in your home, you don't want to spray and pray.
Yeah, but who said anything about spray and pray? Not me. I even specified "aimed" fire. Why is it someone always assumes an advantage in capacity equates to a lack of marksmanship?

From a spray and pray point of view, 80+ whatever-sized round balls directed with a bead sight en masse qualifies a lot more than individually aimed hammer pairs from a rifle. It's simple probability. Every projectile has to be accounted for, and more projectiles stand a higher risk of collateral damage than less projectiles aimed individually with the same care.

Quote:
Twelve shots of panic-fired jacketed .308s is formidable, but a miss is flying far and fast to who knows where.
Thus the reason you aim. And for the record, I don't know what you're insinuating, but there is no reason using a rifle for self-defense should result in any more panic-ed fire than a shotgun. The rifle is just more accurate, and gives the user more control over what gets a hole in it, and where that hole is.

Quote:
A single shotgun shell at close range sends an ounce or more (an ounce is 437.5 grains, people, compared to 125gr 9mm, or 225gr .45, or 55gr 5.56) of lead in nice tight patterns - regardless of choke or shot size - inside 10 yards. Place that in the COM and the BG is down hard. Yes, energy is exponential to velocity and only linear to mass, but mass is a constant that cannot be ignored. Heavy things simply take longer to stop. Besides, if you're defending your family, do you want a little .3" hole (made with 2500ft/lbs but with a very high chance of pass-thru) or a gnarly 2" hole (made with 2000 ft/lbs that disperses all its energy in the wound) in the BG chest?
Yes, but each pellet has comparatively little mass, and thus, little momentum. A single 00 buck pellet weighs about the same as a single 5.56 round, or a little less, and its greater diameter means it has a lower sectional density. This means it sheds velocity faster and penetrates less. And that isn't necessarily a good thing.

The velocities produces by a shotgun are closer to those produced by handguns than they are to those produced by rifles. This means that the shotgun lacks the velocity to cause damage to organs beyond the immediate path of the projectile(s). So each buckshot pellet is carving a pencil-sized hole, with little or no damage occurring beyond the permanent wound cavity produced by the individual projectile. In effect, you're emptying a .32 caliber mouse gun in the general direction of the enemy and relying on the cumulative effects of these rounds to be more than the sum of its parts.

By comparison, you have a 168 gr Hornady Amax leaving an 18 inch M1A Scout at over 2500 fps. At, this velocity, shock forces produced by the projectile are violent enough to permanently tear and bruise vital tissue for several inches beyond the immediate path of the bullet. Plus, by virtue of its construction, this bullet fragments violently upon impact, losing nearly half of its mass to this effect. At its widest point, the crush cavity of this round, achieved somewhere around 6 inches of penetration, is over 5 inches in diameter. The projectile eventually comes to halt with barely over half its original mass and about twice its orignal diameter after penetrating about 16 inches of tissue--ideal for defensive application. This means that a single expanding .308 round possesses over 70% of the tissue displacement and wound cavitation of your average 12 gauge buckshot round. And because it has less recoil, and at least twice the capacity, the user can operate hammer pairs at in-house distances with a high-probability (at least as high as all your pellets striking the target at the same distance) of both rounds impacting on target, and he can still engage ten times without reloading once. Meaning the shotgun has the advantage in actual application in neither firepower nor terminal effect, when the rifle is employed in this manner.

Even assuming your energy dump theory holds water (and it doesn't), when and if the rifle bullet exits the attacker's body, it's already "dumped" more energy into the target than the 12 gauge round even possess.

And none of this comes at the expense of conventional advantages held by rifles, such as range and accuracy. A rifle carbine is at least as handy indoors as a shotgun, and even a 7.62mm battle rifle such as a FAL or M1A is going to be light enough that no adult capable of handy 12 gauge recoil should notice it, esp given the advantages associated with that extra weight.

Quote:
I think Pete is correct - bird shot doesn't over-penetrate secondary or tertiary walls, but certainly still packs a wallop at short distance. The Pincus video is interesting, if not purely scientific. The beauty of lead shot is that at close range, it acts similar to a solid projectile but as it spreads or encounters resistance, it separates and acts like individual light projectiles, spending its energy faster hence the lower penetration at distance.
Penetration is your friend. Those who research these things (mostly by shooting things and analyzing the results) know this. Too little penetration is far more dangerous than too much penetration. Too little penetration gets you stabbed or shot (then the BG moves on to your family). Too much penetration might result in the bullet killing or injuring an innocent 3rd party, or their property. I'll take "will" vs "might" odds any day of the week.

Shallow, superficial wounds, such as those created by birdshot (at any range), are unreliable stoppers. Without damaging vital organs or the CNS, only pain response and the mental response of getting shot stand to stop an attacker. Even without other mind-altering substances, these responses are likely to be dulled by the adrenaline and other chemicals created in duress by the body. The only way to reliably stop an attacker barring a hit to the CNS, is by blood loss and damage to vital organs. This requires the round to penetrate to the vital organs, regardless of clothing encountered, or shot angle presented, and regardless of what skeletal-muscular obstacles the round encounters. This is why the FBI has a mandatory 12 inch of penetration rule, even after penetrating heavy clothing, or other obstacles. They prefer 14 to 16 inches, and so do I. Nearly half of all Americans are overweight, and 1/3 of them are obese. That means the chances of your round having to penetrate more than the 6 to 8 inches provided by birdshot is very high.

I've seen 6 and 7 1/2 shot fail to stop ground squirrels from perfectly centered patterns out of an extra-full turkey choke in my 870 Wingmaster at ranges I have in my house far too many times to trust birdshot on anything larger than a rabbit. Beyond 30 to 40 feet, exit wounds are the exception rather than the rule even on these 1.5 pound varmints.

Quote:
Don't get me wrong - i like all my guns for their various uses. But my rifles are all hunting tools, powerful and accurate at long-range. For HD, in the middle of the night, I'd start with the shotgun. Just point and shoot. And repeat as necessary.
"Just point and shoot"? Now who is spraying and praying?

If, by your own admission, the shot acts like a single projectile at close range, that would seem to indicate that it still has to be aimed like a single projectile. And indeed, that is the case.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De...index.htm#.308
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