The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > The Smithy

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 27, 2009, 02:06 AM   #1
fireroad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2008
Posts: 126
Pillar bed without glass badding?

Is possable to piller bed a wood stock without glass bedding it? The reason I ask is I would like to bed a 700 mountain rifle, but those thin barrels need the pressure points to shoot striaght. If I glass bed I'm afraid I'll gain some clearance between the barrel and the stock. Do toy need to get new screw when you pillar bed? Has anyone tried this product...

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=6..._PILLAR_SYSTEM
fireroad is offline  
Old July 27, 2009, 04:24 PM   #2
Scorch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2006
Location: Washington state
Posts: 11,407
Adding pillars is a good way to eliminate crushing the stock when tightening action screws. You can do the same thing with epoxy, but that's up to you. Glass bedding will not change the outward appearance of the rifle nor increase clearances.
__________________
Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs.
But what do I know?
Summit Arms Services
Taylor Machine
Scorch is offline  
Old July 27, 2009, 08:30 PM   #3
fireroad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 2, 2008
Posts: 126
From what I understand glass bedding reduces movement but does not help with stock crush. My 700 mountian is extremely susecptable to stock crush. "Ernie the gunsmith" has a pretty good explanation of why it doesn't make sense to glass bed without pillar bedding. I'm curious is pillar bedding without stock bedding would have a positive affect, if only to prevent stock crush.

http://www.erniethegunsmith.com/
fireroad is offline  
Old July 28, 2009, 08:59 AM   #4
longrifles, Inc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2009
Location: Sturgis, South Dakota
Posts: 152
Quote:
Is possable to piller bed a wood stock without glass bedding it? The reason I ask is I would like to bed a 700 mountain rifle, but those thin barrels need the pressure points to shoot striaght. If I glass bed I'm afraid I'll gain some clearance between the barrel and the stock. Do toy need to get new screw when you pillar bed? Has anyone tried this product...

Short answer. YES, you can get by with just pillars.

There are some caveats to this though.

1. If doing this, I advocate it only be done on stocks that have a high resin content. (like laminates and/or synthetics)

Remember, the purpose behind bedding a rifle is to provide a tension free environment for the barreled action to nest into. It should be as inert to environmental conditions as possible. Done successfully, the rifle should hold a consistent zero in a broader variety of conditions.

What it can't do is polish a ****. A quality bedding job will make a great gun exceptional, a good gun, great, or a decent rifle "better".

I have done this very thing twice with guns I've owned. One happens to be the hardest hitting gun I own. It was built on a bet and it violates almost every cardinal rule of accurate rifle building. Yet it hammers five shot groups under .100" of an inch with factory B/H ammo. (.096" being the best I've gotten yet)

Don't be afraid to try it, but just be realistic.
longrifles, Inc is offline  
Old July 28, 2009, 01:23 PM   #5
Scorch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2006
Location: Washington state
Posts: 11,407
Quote:
From what I understand glass bedding reduces movement but does not help with stock crush. My 700 mountian is extremely susecptable to stock crush.
You can eliminate the "stock crush" effect by routing out the stock bolt holes abd pouring pillars when you glass bed. I do this as a routine thing whenever I glass bed a rifle. It ensures a consistent tightening of the stock bolts and eliminates crushing the stock.
Quote:
"Ernie the gunsmith" has a pretty good explanation of why it doesn't make sense to glass bed without pillar bedding
"Ernie the Gunsmith" may be referring to people who do a "skin bedding" job, which is a very thin layer of resin over the existing wood stock. This type of bedding is not the proper way to bed a rifle, although it will deliver some accuracy gains by evening out contact in the bedding. I have seen as many pillar bedding jobs screwed up as glass bedding jobs screwed up, so it is by no means foolproof. I personally believe it is just a way for some smiths to sell another service they should be doing as part of a good bedding job anyway.
__________________
Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs.
But what do I know?
Summit Arms Services
Taylor Machine
Scorch is offline  
Old July 28, 2009, 02:33 PM   #6
longrifles, Inc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2009
Location: Sturgis, South Dakota
Posts: 152
Here's two photos of what I was talking about.



__________________
Investment Grade Firearms:
www.longriflesinc.com
BFFOC Instructor
Colt, Glock, F/N Certified Armorer
longrifles, Inc is offline  
Old July 28, 2009, 07:19 PM   #7
boy412
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 30, 2009
Posts: 118
I hope I'm not thread jacking here...but I am considering having this done to my Savage 10FCP McMillan. What would one expect to pay for such a service?

Cheers...
__________________
Savage 12 LRPV
Dan Wesson PM-7 Bi-Tone
Rock-Ola M1 Carbine
boy412 is offline  
Old July 28, 2009, 11:27 PM   #8
bear308
Junior Member
 
Join Date: February 9, 2009
Posts: 4
For what it is worth, I am not a gunsmith. I am a weekend hobbyist that messes with guns for entertainment so please keep that in mind when I attempt to pass on an experience that I have had that might be helpful.

I recently bought a Remington 700 3006 with a synthetic stock as a project primarily to build a brake and practice barrel threading. After the barrel and brake were finished, I couldn’t keep myself from messing with the stock. The first thing I was concerned about was the pressure tabs in the forearm and wondered if free floating the barrel would destroy accuracy of the thin barrel. I couldn’t seem to find a consensus to that answer. I was also concerned that if I varied the torque of the action bolts that the stock would crush and vary the pressure exerted on the pressure tabs in the forearm which would then result in point of impact change and group size (vibration) variations. So…I installed pillars to eliminate the crush. When installing pillars, one must clamp the action in the stock while the epoxy sets. Did I maintain the same position/pressure on the forearm tabs as the factory installation? I suspect that I didn’t so I relieved and sanded the stock and installed bedding to provide a stress free stock except for the pressure tabs. I also installed some aluminum in the forearm to reduce the potential of stock flexing and variable pressure on the tabs. I guess what I am trying to pass along is that no matter what you do concerning pillars or bedding the pressure on the forearm tabs will probably change point of impact and accuracy. If you install pillars only, the stock crush and variable pressure on the tabs will be eliminated and you will have a “fixed” pressure on the tabs.

I shot some groups and was less than impressed with the performance so I started checking the barrel clearance in the forearm and discovered that the bottom of the barrel was slightly in contact with the stock in addition to the tabs. I am therefore assuming that messing with the stock disturbed the original factory installation. At this point I decided to remove the tabs and free float the barrel. It now shoots less than 1 MOA with factory Winchester 165 SP. I suspect that it will do a little better if I hand load some match grade 175 HPBTs AND I was a more proficient with holding even pressures, breath and trigger control, etc.

I guess the readers digest version of the above is that installing the pillars alone could be a crapshoot. The pillars will eliminate stock crush but are not a guarantee for improving accuracy by themselves. The receiver might still have uneven stress and the resulting tab pressure may or may not be what you want.

I hope it addressed your question and was somewhat helpful.
bear308 is offline  
Old July 29, 2009, 08:34 AM   #9
Alleykat
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 26, 2007
Posts: 3,668
Asking questions based on a false premise ("need those pressure points...blah, blah, blah...") won't get you a lot of cogent responses!
Alleykat is offline  
Old August 16, 2009, 12:15 AM   #10
scoobydoo6906
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 10, 2005
Location: Portland, Or
Posts: 299
from what I understand free floating even a thin barrel shouldn't be detrimental to its accuracy potential in theory. my understanding of what makes a accurate rifle is the consistency of vibration in the barrel. heavier barrels are easier to get consistency out of but a lightweight barrels can shoot just as well. I myself would float the barrel and go from there. I am by no means a expert on this but those are my thoughts.
__________________
Remington 760 BDL .270, yugo M70B1 , Remington 870 wingmaster, remington 700 ADL 30-06, Pre 64 Marlin 336 30-30, springfield xd-9 sub compact, Sig Sauer 226, F&N FNP-45, Ruger 10/22, XD-45 4in, XD-9 4in
scoobydoo6906 is offline  
Old August 16, 2009, 11:42 AM   #11
boy412
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 30, 2009
Posts: 118
My gun's barrel is floated from the factory.

I'll re-state that the only reason I might want pillars is to prevent stock crush by over-torquing the action bolts. I have the Wheeler tourque driver, so while I'm not overly concerned if its one of those things that will help avoid this problem then why not do it?
__________________
Savage 12 LRPV
Dan Wesson PM-7 Bi-Tone
Rock-Ola M1 Carbine
boy412 is offline  
Old August 18, 2009, 01:25 PM   #12
M_E_
Member
 
Join Date: August 4, 2009
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 54
I have a friend in the rifle & stock manufacturing business. We were just talking about this yesterday after a trip to the range. The pillars are needed to keep the stock from compressing as you tighten the action screws. His fiberglass or carbon fiber (graphite) stocks can take the compression because of the filler material he uses. But since everyone wants the pillars, he places them into the stocks as they are being manufactured. Can't remember if that's prior or after he CNCs the inletting in the stocks. I would still free float the barrel in the mountain rifle.

And if it still doesn't shoot the way you want it, do glass bed the rifle. I really would glass bed the rifle as well as the pillar bedding. Do both.

If that doesn't work then order a new stock for it. Bed it when you recieve it. Or, you can send the rifle to them & let them install the stock & mate it to your rifle.

Last edited by M_E_; August 18, 2009 at 01:33 PM.
M_E_ is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.09013 seconds with 7 queries