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Old July 26, 2009, 11:28 AM   #51
Tennessee Gentleman
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As a wise old mentor once told me "Never acknowledge the bird". Ignore them and walk away. Getting involved in a SD shoot because somebody mouths off to you is deserving of a Darwin award. Of course, I do know a lot of posts in these threads are just "wind".
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Old July 26, 2009, 11:32 AM   #52
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onthejon55

He followed you into the parking lot because:

1) You chose to mouth off and flip him the bird; not saying he didn't deserve it, but I am saying you should have been smarter than to do that, especially with your little sister in tow.

2) After responding to those guys in a way that you should have known would provoke a response (mature, responsible guys wouldn't have cat-called your sister in the first place), you took your sister and walked away from any authority figures who might have intervened.

So, yes, he followed you, but you chose the situation. Your self-discipline and tactics were quite frankly horrible.
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Old July 26, 2009, 11:33 AM   #53
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Like I said, the fight isn't always physical. And a response, IN KIND, is appropriate. Ducking and running is a sign of submission, and thus when you take that action, you are dominated. Running away from a non-threat is insecurity, while making of joke of it (as I suggested in my first response to this thread) is a way of refusing to be cowed while at the same time not taking action that is a real escalation.

The idea that we give up all other ways of defending ourselves short of deadly force when we carry a gun is absurd. There are plenty of ways for dealing with the situation described in the OP that don't involve the use of a firearm or deadly force or willingly submitting to the abuse. You cut your own throat when you only have one way of responding to a multitude of varying threats of various seriousness.

Allowing a bully to go on being a bully is stupid, plain and simple, and just invites more of the behavior and an escalation of the bullying by the instigator.
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Old July 26, 2009, 11:34 AM   #54
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allowing them to dominate you...

Rampage, every time you feel that you MUST respond, you have allowed them to dominate you. You have turned yourself into a puppet, for any jerk to manipulate.

Still think you ought to re-think your screen name and your professed desire for confrontations.
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Old July 26, 2009, 11:40 AM   #55
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Quote:
He followed you into the parking lot because:

1) You chose to mouth off and flip him the bird; not saying he didn't deserve it, but I am saying you should have been smarter than to do that, especially with your little sister in tow.

2) After responding to those guys in a way that you should have known would provoke a response (mature, responsible guys wouldn't have cat-called your sister in the first place), you took your sister and walked away from any authority figures who might have intervened.

So, yes, he followed you, but you chose the situation. Your self-discipline and tactics were quite frankly horrible.
Yep.

"And she wanted to be raped because she was wearing a short skirt when I picked her up for our date. She provoked it by walking with that sexy strut when I said she looked good. She wanted it."

"He shouldn't have fought me when I tried to take his wallet. He made me kill him."

"I wouldn't have keyed Mr. Smith's car if he hadn't given me detention for being late to class."

Failing to meekly accept the wrong action of an individual does not make you responsible when they decide to take still more wrong action because you refused to let it go.
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Old July 26, 2009, 11:44 AM   #56
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You have turned yourself into a man, for any jerk to self-destruct against.
Fixed it.

Rampage is a shorted form of "Ramsey Page" a pen named I've been using for over a decade. Try again.
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Old July 26, 2009, 11:45 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rampage841512
Ducking and running is a sign of submission, and thus when you take that action, you are dominated.
Dominated in what way? Are you losing money, freedom or property? Are you losing business or your job? Your life? These types are nothing but hopeless punks who will one day probably buy it in a drive by, and you want to soil your hands with them? What kind of sense does that make? If this is just about ego then as many have said you must have a fragile one indeed. I suggest working to improve that and the words of a couple of clowns will mean nothing to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rampage841512
Allowing a bully to go on being a bully is stupid, plain and simple, and just invites more of the behavior and an escalation of the bullying by the instigator.
Fear not, one of his idiot peers will cash in his chips one day. And then probably go to prison. The is a role you need not play.
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Old July 26, 2009, 11:52 AM   #58
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You've been denied the use of a venue, the theater lobby in this instance.

Trusting that someone else will solve a problem for you is just burying your head in the sand.

Respectfully disagree, Tennesse? And let it lie? I think we've encountered each other's ideas and philosophy on this board enough to know we're not going to change the the others mind. I don't think going back and forth is going to get us anywhere. Nothing short of real world encounters are left, for we've delved into theory as far as it can take up.
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Old July 26, 2009, 12:00 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLeake
1) You chose to mouth off and flip him the bird; not saying he didn't deserve it, but I am saying you should have been smarter than to do that, especially with your little sister in tow.
I know I shouldnt have said anything but sometimes you cant help it. If there is nothing anyone can say to you to make you mad then you may want to get your testosterone levels checked. Every man has his breaking point and my breaking point comes when my sister is insulted in public.

Quote:
2) After responding to those guys in a way that you should have known would provoke a response (mature, responsible guys wouldn't have cat-called your sister in the first place), you took your sister and walked away from any authority figures who might have intervened.
We were in an empty movie theater lobby. There was NO ONE else around. If i would have stayed inside then everyone on here would have said "why didnt you retreat to you car and leave?". those were my too options and i decided to try and let things settle down by leaving. I had no idea at the time that he was going to follow me all the way out to my car.
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Old July 26, 2009, 12:04 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rampage841512
You've been denied the use of a venue, the theater lobby in this instance.
That makes no sense however...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rampage841512
Respectfully disagree, Tennesse? And let it lie? I think we've encountered each other's ideas and philosophy on this board enough to know we're not going to change the the others mind.
That's fine but I am not really trying to "change your mind". I'll let you decide to do that. At my advanced age I find it useful to sound out my "philosophies" and see how it plays back to me from others. I have learned a lot that way. You must be doing some of the same or you wouldn't post here. I hope you will consider some of the feedback you have received and maybe it will "refine" your ideas. I just hate to see people do things that ruin their lives. A failing of mine.
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Old July 26, 2009, 12:27 PM   #61
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You have turned yourself into a man, for any jerk to self-destruct against.
That sounds like a recipe for jail time.

I worry that some people are just waiting for a someone to confront them so that they can shoot somebody, instead of hoping to never have to use it at all.
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Old July 26, 2009, 12:35 PM   #62
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The proper thing to do would be to fully occupy your vehicle in order to take advantage of Castle Doctrine . I know, someone will be along shortly to tell me that it doesn't work like that.

People are saying that 6'2", 180 isn't that big, but neither is 5'5", 130. It's called relativity.

As others have said, the proper thing to do was to not escalate the situation. However, no one is in jail and no one got hurt, so you did alright in my book.

Edited to add: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYXZAAlxzOI.
LOL! I'm just joking around with the link.
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Old July 26, 2009, 12:41 PM   #63
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This scenario makes a good mental training exercise for those of us who were not there.

When you carry a concealed weapon your options are different than when you do not carry a weapon. The issue of physical disparity is different for each of us as it depends upon size, age, physical health and training in hand to hand skills.

Making an honest assessment of our own physical capabilities and what is an imminent threat of great bodily harm of death is an individual decision that must be made in a short time period. But we can use scenarios like this to do a little mental gymnastics to try and place ourselves in this situation and try to determine what is a "go" "no go" trigger.

If you use the Color Code that Jeff Cooper has taught the OP was in RED when he got to the car and stood outside of it watching the threat approach. What would be a "go"; to draw and point the weapon at the threat?
Had he exhausted all of his non-lethal options before drawing his weapon?
Should he had also gotten in his car and locked the doors before drawing his weapon?

Depending upon how he was parked and his possible avenues of egress in his vehicle I assume that getting in the vehicle would have been a better option than standing outside. In the event that the threat blocked his path to leave, a call to 911 could have been made. Only in the event that the threat broke a window which would give the threat access to the OP or his sister inside of the vehicle and cause great bodily harm or death, would I then display or use the weapon. If the threat had broken the window there would be clear evidence of the aggressiveness of the threat and his ability to do damage.

I have decided that should a situation occur where I am carrying a concealed weapon, and I get to Orange or Red, it is not a "go" if I am insulted or spit upon without an imminent threat of great bodily harm or death that I try to remove myself from the situation without the use of my weapon. Anger or revenge is not justification for the use of lethal force.

I see carrying a concealed weapon as a trade off. One the one had you must be prepared to take verbal abuse and not escalate; on the other hand, you have the option to counter lethal force with lethal force should that occur.

We tend to admire people who show bravery, which is overcoming fear to do something positive. We should also admire people who overcome anger and do something wise.
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Old July 26, 2009, 12:48 PM   #64
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Seems to me that after you impulsively irritated the bully into a physical confrontation, you were probably left with no alternative other than to draw the gun and discourage him, because if you had not, and he came at you and you lost control (likely since he was so much larger than you), the gun suddenly becomes problematic- if you lose it to him in the fracas, the situation has the potential to get immeasurably worse. Once it got to the point of a probable physical dust-up, you seriously needed to discharge the situation with whatever means were available to protect your control of the weapon.

Better to just shut up and walk away, especially if you were carrying, avoiding as much contact with him and his pals as was possible.

Having a gun seems to have made you bolder than you would have been had you left it home. I mean, would you have mouthed off to 3 guys, at least one of which was bigger than you if you were unarmed?

Until you get a handle on how to handle yourself in such situations when you're carrying, it's probably best to leave it on the dresser.

Just my $.02
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Old July 26, 2009, 12:55 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Billy
Having a gun seems to have made you bolder than you would have been had you left it home. I mean, would you have mouthed off to 3 guys, at least one of which was bigger than you if you were unarmed?
Yes i would have. Ive already stated that i have little tolerance for people that insult women (especially my sister) in public.
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Old July 26, 2009, 12:57 PM   #66
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I see only a couple of thing wrong with this situation.

I am not going to criticize you in your actions, because I was young once and had my fair share of hot headed moments. And this old man exterior in the past 20 years has on more than one occasion fooled a 20 something into thinking I would be easy to beat up.

However… wisdom tells me that if you know who you are, then there is nothing that anyone else can say or do, that can change that.

I believe that you should have just gotten into your car and left. I too have sisters and don’t like it when people used to talk that way about them. But the smart thing would have been to just leave. Most states have laws of self defense that allow you to defend yourself against someone trying to get into your car.

But the pulling the gun thing was not a good idea. I don’t ever advocate pulling your firearm if you do not use it.

A year or so ago… I had a not too similar situation where there were a couple of gentlemen around 25 or so that were aggressive toward my family. I handled it by taking the gun and holster out of my pants and putting it into the car with my wife (In their full view of course) and telling my wife to call 911 and tell them to bring an ambulance for the gentlemen (again loud enough for them to hear). Granted this was a bluff, and if they had not bought it… The ambulance would have been needed for me I am sure. But I defeated them with psychological warfare before anyone got hurt.

I am not a violent person nor is that my normal course of action. But at the time it seemed like the right thing to do. Foolish … yes. But luckily it worked out.
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Old July 26, 2009, 01:01 PM   #67
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If he had been further away i would have left in my car. That was my original intent when i exited the movie theater. the reason i didnt just leave was because i didnt think i had enough time to get in the car and secure the door before he had a chance to stop me from closing the door and dragging me out.
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Old July 26, 2009, 01:02 PM   #68
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Bottom line: When you flip someone the bird and cuss at them, you forfiet the legal right to use you gun.

You have participated in escalating the situation. When you do so, any "disparity of force" arguments go out the window.

If you are defending yourself against a threat that you provoked, it is no longer self defense.

A real man does not carry a gun to prove himself. He carries a gun to protect himself and his loved ones.
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Old July 26, 2009, 01:06 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by (BH)
If you are defending yourself against a threat that you provoked, it is no longer self defense.
I didnt ask him to follow me out to my car and threaten to do bodily harm to me.
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Old July 26, 2009, 01:11 PM   #70
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Believe me man, I know that stuff is infuriating. I've been there, and I'm not saying that I don't understand the anger some of those types can cause in a guy. But.....

Any judge in the country IS going to say that you in fact did invite a threat. If you participate in any way that could be considered intentionally provocative, you are now a fellow aggressor, and no longer a victim.
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Old July 26, 2009, 01:24 PM   #71
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rampage you can paint those pretty pictures to fit your side of things very easily, but in reality its still wrong.
First of all, when someone commits a crime the victim is not at "fault"
This boy here wouldn't have been a victim of a crime. He was an instigator of a situation.
Here is the bottom line. You got a gun. You are held to a high responsibility. Period. IF you don't like it, don't carry, cause reality is sure going to kick your a$$. After I started carrying(in April, I turned 24 in April and got my permit) believe me I don't say nothing to anyone no matter what they say. I don't care if they insult my mom, dad, family, or whoever. Why is this? Because I know I have control. He doesn't. And he won't know I have control unless he really tests it by becoming a threat.
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/bullies.htm
and i quote
"First off, most people who are selected in this manner don't understand what they are doing to attract the attention of bullies. The build up to violence is always a two way street. What you do affects whether or not you are selected to be the bullies' entertainment. Until you understand this, you won't realize how much power and control you are giving up by reacting to bullies a certain way."

Emphasis mine in bold. Bully is going fishing, you took the bait. Then you escalated it with a gun.

this one is for you rampage and I quote
"Now the funny thing is the Bobs are the ones who most fear being branded as victims. So they think they 'have' to "stand up" to the tough guy. They're the ones who often find themselves rattlesnake-cornered (a rattlesnake is so stupid that it can get 'cornered' in an open field, and the usual result is that the snake ends up dying). Despite being completely concerned what "everyone else will think," these kind of people really aren't aware of what other people believe or think!"

Onthejon55- you better deal with your "low" tolerance before you get POed and escalate another situation because some idiot called your sister a ho
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Old July 26, 2009, 01:34 PM   #72
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Yes i would have. Ive already stated that i have little tolerance for people that insult women (especially my sister) in public.

That tolerance should change then now that you carry. Or, if you can't do that, you're going to need to learn some hand to hand or carry some pepper spray or something with you.

You could have put your sister in even bigger risk by pulling the firearm. Like the previous poster said, if that guy would've pulled out his .45 then what would you have done?

By walking away and not responding, nothing probably would have happened. Are words worth getting shot/going to jail? They were just punks to begin with, their words did not mean a thing. Just walk away and don't invite trouble to escalate.


On a more personal note. Why are you carrying a Walther p22? How many rounds have you put through it? Is it reliable? I just know a lot of people that have a lot of problems with their p22's and I would never consider it for a concealed weapon, especially since it's only 22. That part is just my opinion though.
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Old July 26, 2009, 01:36 PM   #73
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I'm going to sit this one out and just watch.
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Old July 26, 2009, 02:19 PM   #74
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You do know that you did do a pretty good job of reviewing your actions after the fact. You recognized that answering the name calling probably wasn't the best option. No doubt it can be a hard one to take but I think the next time you might make the choice to ignore them. IMHO that would be the correct one for a couple of reasons. The first is they could have a gun and just looking for a reason to use it. The second is that when guys are with their buddies they are more likely to escalate a small problem because of peer pleasure.

So the choice of ignoring and walking is a responsible choice which means your sister is safety escorted to the car with out harm. No if you wanted to make these guys learn a lesson you had the option of talking to the manager of the theater. This way these guys didn't get off the hook so easy.

Now you also reviewed your actions during the encounter when you were in your car. A prudent action would have been to start the car and leave. You did make the choice to stay and draw a gun. IMHO you defiantly escalated the encounter to a level of possible deadly outcome over name calling.

You did recognize that this was not a proper reaction. However we may differ on brandishing a weapon when you are not in immediate danger. I believe from your story that you were not. In any event you made the choice to raise the level of some name calling to a level of deadly force. The outcome could have been very different at this point. The other guy could have had a gun, you could have had an accidental discharge and your sister was in more danger than she was from a bunch or words.

The important part thought is that I think you were scared and learned a lesson when encountering just words. It ended well and I do give you credit for thinking over your actions.

What I really would like to know is what would you do different if this same thing happened again? That is the important subject of this thread.

Take car and be safe.

Last edited by Farmland; July 26, 2009 at 02:25 PM.
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Old July 26, 2009, 02:40 PM   #75
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Quote:
I know I shouldnt have said anything but sometimes you cant help it. If there is nothing anyone can say to you to make you mad then you may want to get your testosterone levels checked. Every man has his breaking point and my breaking point comes when my sister is insulted in public.
Testosterone levels don't make you a man, it only makes you a male. If you let your testosterone guide you in you decision making process in cases like this, then you will either:
a) end up in jail (if you are lucky) or
b) end up in a morgue
Sperm cells don't make you a man, brain cells do!

And furthermore, you said:
Quote:
I didnt ask him to follow me out to my car and threaten to do bodily harm to me.
Yes, you did. Twice!
In your own words:
Quote:
At this point my temper flared and i made the mistake of telling them to go F*** themselves...
That is #1, and

Quote:
...and showed them a certain hand gesture.
That is #2. How should he have reacted to your verbal assault and hand gesture? If you say that to someone, you should expect to get an ass whoopin'!

And while I am at it...

In your opening post you said:
Quote:
After the movie i was waiting for her to finish using the restroom when i noticed there were three young men standing outside the bathroom laughing and looking my way.
Then later in that same post, out in the parking lot you said:
Quote:
I looked around and realized that a bunch of people were watching and didnt even try to break up the potential fight...
But then later on Page 3 you said:
Quote:
We were in an empty movie theater lobby. There was NO ONE else around. If i would have stayed inside then everyone on here would have said "why didnt you retreat to you car and leave?". those were my too options and i decided to try and let things settle down by leaving. I had no idea at the time that he was going to follow me all the way out to my car.
OK, something isn't adding up for me, but maybe its just me. Your sister was in the bathroom so long that the entire lobby had cleared out except for you and those three "gentlemen". So now you act surprised that they followed you out to your car! Why would they stay in a totally empty theater lobby especially considering the circumstances?

But all those people in the lobby couldn't have been too far behind. By the time you make it out to your car, get your sister inside and brandish your weapon at an unarmed man, you notice that there were a bunch of people watching who didn't try and stop the fight!

I am sure its just me, but something about this "scenario" doesn't pass the smell test!

Scott
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