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Old July 25, 2009, 07:22 PM   #26
MLeake
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Sounds great in theory, SAIGAFISH

but would sound absolutely horrible in a courtroom, ER, or morgue.

The guys may have been buttheads, and they probably would benefit from a bit of corrective physical activity, but it's not your job nor mine to administer such correction. At least, not over words.

And for all you and HogDogs say that if your relative had been insulted, you'd either be tempted to rush over or maybe you would just not be able to resist (between the two of you, you've covered both those options), I have to wonder if you would do so if you were the only, let's use MAM (Military Aged Male) escorting the female relative.

Would you really put the girl at risk of being harmed, or at best of seeing you get hurt, just in order to say you didn't take any crap from the idiots? Because that's what you'd be risking, especially going one against three.

Some things sound great in concept, but a lot less great the closer you get to execution.

So you go and chest thump at the three guys. Possible results:

1) They immediately back down and apologize. Best case.

2) They decide to fight, but aren't very capable and you beat them down a bit until they concede. You may injure your hands, they might hurt you some, and you run the risk of being arrested, charged, and / or sued. Your female relative had to worry about injuries to you, and possible retaliation by the three idiots. Not best case, but it could be worse.

3) They fight, and know what they're doing. You are stalemated when the cops arrive and arrest all of you.

4) They fight, and won't give up easily. You seriously hurt one or more of them. Witnesses say you threatened them and made the first physical move. You go to jail. Female relative has to bail you out, or call other family or friends to come help. Female relative gets first look at a lock-up, thanks to you.

5) They fight, and hand you your butt. Your female relative tries to intervene, but they then hurt or scare her enough to back her off, and they go back to kicking you until somebody else arrives to drag them off. Everybody goes to jail, some to the hospital.

Options can get progressively worse, use your imagination.

So, chest-thumping aside, do you really want to suggest to younger viewers that maybe they should take it upon themselves to charge over?
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Old July 25, 2009, 07:26 PM   #27
Hellbilly5000
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6'2 and 175 lbs is not to big
im 6'3 and just under 200 lbs
better solution for next time just look at the people and say seriously do you not know how to act in public (makes em think about what idiots there being)
and then just walk away if they persist in the manner they did then just get in your car lock the doors and drive away waving at them

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

on a side note I am editing to clarify a comment
at 6'2 a person who is 170 to 175 lbs is a rather small and skinny person, I was never intending to say that 6'2 is small
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Last edited by Hellbilly5000; July 25, 2009 at 07:54 PM. Reason: clarifing a comment I made
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Old July 25, 2009, 07:28 PM   #28
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Quote:
When did talking like a punk at a helpless woman or girl become acceptable?
And when did a big brother lose the right or responsibility to lump up anyone who makes lewd remarks to his little sis?
I had buddies whose father would punch his lights out with out question if either sister said a boy "wronged" them in any way.
My sisters? Well Most boys knew better than to mess with either one. At least I had MERCY on my opponents! One was known to kick 'em "where it counts" and put the leather to 'em when down and the other threw a flurry of punches that would make a pro fighter jealous! Once you went down... SHE REALLY WENT TO TOWN ON YOU!!!
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Old July 25, 2009, 07:49 PM   #29
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6'2 and 175 is not that big....

...and some posters here are bigger and more manly. Fine, on that line of thought I'd have a little over a 40lb weight advantage, and only some of that is fat. I also have a pretty extensive H2H background (3 years wrestling, 2 years kempo and kenpo kickboxing, 9-10 years aikido; recently started studying arnis, to supplement the aikido). But so what?

Just because the odds are very high that I could tear a mouthy teen a new one, and frankly I could probably make a lasting impression on the three described in the OP's scenario, does not make it a good idea for me to do so.

Assuming I would even consider it if on my own, it would become out of question if I were out with my lady (who would be unhappy about the altercation) or my sister (who would either chew me out or kick my butt, or she'd just use her laser eyes on me) or my mother (one reason for that will be covered next).

Last time I got in a fight around one of the women in my family, the woman was my mother, I was 20, and there had been a traffic accident. Even then, I wasn't looking for a fight, but the other driver's boyfriend decided to attack me while we were waiting for the cops. He swung at me, I floored him with a straight right, and next thing I knew my right ear hurt. Turns out my mother came up and grabbed my earlobe, pulling me away and saying "don't kill him."

Did I mention my mother is Sicilian?

Anyway, the guy didn't try that again, but I'm not sure if he was more scared of me or my mother. Wish to this day that I had video of her dragging me back to the car by my earlobe.... The thought still makes me smile.

This brings up another point: While we big he-men may feel like we need to protect the womenfolk, I can't think of too many guys who would like the cans they'd be opening if they had provoked my mother back in the day, or my sister up to the present day. They don't need protecting, except from serious threats - muggers or rapists, sure, but not from some idiot loudmouth at a movie theater. I'm quite sure that my mother, my sister, and my significant other would feel that my actions in going after the idiots would reduce me to the level of said idiots, and reflect poorly on my companions. On the other hand, if the guys were real BG's, then my mother, sister, or significant other would either be scrambling to call 911 or else be all over the back of any BG who tried to get to my blind side. They'd probably do both.

My sister has probably put more guys on the floor than 75% of the posters in this forum. Taught her straight right, left hook, and uppercut when she was a pre-teen. She's used the uppercut successfully on three occasions that I know of...

My significant other breaks and trains horses. She's a sweetie, but she's strong and not easily intimidated by mammals under 1500lbs.

None of them are impressed by chest-thumping. For that matter, neither am I. If you want to impress the women in my pack, use your grey matter first, and use the knuckles only when there are no other choices.
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Old July 25, 2009, 08:10 PM   #30
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This is one of those time I would have just kept on walking. You were in a safe environment with people around. While I might have been mad there was not any thing that would have made me react to them.

Now do this in my back yard and I might have given them a good old country lesson on how to treat my little sis.

But seriously why say something and have it escalate into a bigger problem. It was only words from jerks let it pass the next time.
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Old July 25, 2009, 08:16 PM   #31
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I can't say the OP acted unreasonably in his initial response. What he was responding to might constitute Fighting Words. I think a biting and insulting response to what was said to he and his sister is more than appropriate, but I'd have chosen to go about it differently than he did.

As for the rest, I always like to keep some pepper spray on me for instances when a person is threatening me in the manner described. I would suggest you look into it. Assuming you are capable of handling the person threatening you, and I don't mean you think you can take them hand to hand (when armed), I suggest taking a tone of unconcerned disdain when responding to threats, such as a good snarky, "No, you won't." "No, you can't." or such and walking away. If they push it to the point where you think physical force is about to be used against you spray'em or taze'em (assuming you have legal justification in your jurisdiction...if you don't, you shoulda been gone a long time ago). After that, assuming it stops them, it should stop most, call police and press charges for the appropriate crime. In my neck of the woods the guy would be guilty of menacing.

And the gun never has to come into play unless at some point deadly force has become necessary. Bear in mind, my opinion is a result of the laws I live with and your own laws may be different and thus make bearing and grinning the appropriate action.
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Old July 25, 2009, 08:38 PM   #32
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Movie Thereater Issue?

As I have said before, you take on the loudist SOB with what ever means you are going to do it with, Say it Once and Get off the X", then retreat to your car. If others follow, you then have to take them on also. Lots of Pepper Spray in the retreat mode works very well, unless they are armed, then it is War ON. You just have to know how to get hold of these issues and dispatch them in quick order. Then call 911 and get the Police who are minutes away when seconds count to come take down what happened, along with the witness statements...
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Old July 25, 2009, 08:49 PM   #33
MLeake
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There is a lot of testosterone flowing in this thread...

... but not much sense.

Why would anybody do something to escalate verbal stupidity to a physical altercation when they are out with a woman? It's asinine.

"Sister, I love you, so I shall defend your honor by putting myself, and possibly you as well, at risk of physical harm."

Pure and simple stupidity. Who are you trying to impress? Your sister? The idiot teenagers? The movie usher? Based on the advice some are giving, I hope they don't routinely carry.
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Old July 25, 2009, 10:49 PM   #34
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Mleake, I'm with you.

Many of the options mentioned in this thread are great..... when you don't have a gun in your pocket.

When you carry a gun, you waive the right to confront a pack idiots who have verbally insulted you. It's just too risky.

Assume you confront them and they beat you to the point where you are losing consciousness and you're pretty sure they could do you permanent harm, now are you gonna use your gun to prevent permanent brain damage? Or are you really going to realize that if you do, you are certainly going to be in some serious legal, financial, and emotional trouble? No, you are going to save your own life, and deal with the hell the follows.

Now wouldn't it just be easier to shrug it and go home?
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Old July 25, 2009, 11:24 PM   #35
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Agreed with MLeake. No need to escalate the situation when you have nothing to gain, but much to lose. Just walk away and don't worry about it, it's not worth getting beat up over or having stuff happen to your sister.

I am also under the impression (don't have my CPL yet so someone can correct me), that any time you draw your firearm, the police should be called, no matter what.

Remember, situational awareness. Don't put yourself in the position where you have to draw the firearm. You should've stayed in the theatre, go find a group of people, call the theatre security over or something like that so you'll be safe and have no need to draw your firearm.
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Old July 25, 2009, 11:55 PM   #36
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Sorry for your little sister; I don't blame you for getting mad but I think you should have ignore the CAT CALL , not even look in their direction and walk to your car. A good way to ensure your and her safety in a case like this where you loose control is a BIG MACE, just in case..., I carry one all the time and a digital camera.Gun usage is in a last resort situation where you have NO CHOICE. Dan
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Old July 26, 2009, 12:23 AM   #37
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Rough crowd here, but I agree with most....

That said, what movie did you just see....Gran Torino? I may have done the same thing after that movie.

The older I get the more I feel like Clint Eastwood...he's just sick and tired of people acting out the way they do. haha

According to what I know, you've gotta be real real careful when you pull that gun out, and without a doubt in 'your' mind that you are about to die.

Otherwise court is gonna suck. And prison is gonna suck more.
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Old July 26, 2009, 02:51 AM   #38
Hellbilly5000
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I still say you point out to everyone else how they dont know how to act in public and just leave
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Old July 26, 2009, 03:15 AM   #39
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I would have done what has worked for me in the past.

I'm 5 foot 11, 160 soaking wet, no H2H training and little experience fighting...

Punks yell, I turn and make eye contact. Not threatening, just letting them know I heard them and I didn't like what they said. Shake my head, "no" and walk away. More times than not they are looking for a reaction such as the OP gave. When no such aggressive action is given, they aren't interested anymore. This has gotten me out of situations without a scratch more times than not. I know it makes you friggin MAD to let them get away with that kind of stuff, but you have to CYOA. Sometimes the smallest actions are more effective than the loudest words. Now, if the guy came after me in the parking lot, well we'd go from there. But I'm a smaller dude, and I know my place in the chest-thumping ranks. And it ain't high. So I act accordingly.

But the one time where I did need to throw a fist, that was all it took to end it. One hit. A Boxer's Fracture was a doctor bill I didn't need though...


That last part wasn't really relavant, but, gotta chest-thump a little...
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Old July 26, 2009, 04:59 AM   #40
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This is why you should only use your firearm when your life (or someone else's) is in imminent danger...

Here is how your story went:
Quote:
...when i decided to unholster my Walther P22...

...and when he was withing 5 feet of me i pull the gun from around my back and hold it in front of my chest...

He looked at the gun, mouthed "oh sh**"...
Instead of the other guy doing a 180, it could have ended with the other guy pulling out his .45! Then who would be saying "oh sh**"? You never know if the other guy is also armed! This concealed carry thing is a 2-way street. Its not just something us good guys do!

You went on to say:
Quote:
I looked around and realized that a bunch of people were watching and didnt even try to break up the potential fight...
And thank goodness they didn't! So now what if someone in that bunch of people was also a CCW holder who didn't know what had happened up to this point and then sees you pulling a weapon on a supposedly unarmed person? After all, the other guy wasn't aiming a gun at you, was he? Some people might see this as an act of aggression on your part, not a defensive move. Some people may think, right or wrong, that seeing someone pull a weapon is enough of a threat to use deadly force to stop YOU from using your weapon, especially when they don't know the whole story.

And lastly, if you are only going to carry a .22, you better be good, very good at using it since every shot has to count.

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Last edited by scottaschultz; July 26, 2009 at 07:40 AM.
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Old July 26, 2009, 09:33 AM   #41
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It's all about the Monkey Dance.

Walk away, man. You know you're capable of killing that punk, and so you have nothing to prove. Are you man enough to walk away? Many aren't. They are insecure in themselves and have to prove their manhood, dancing the monkey dance. But you don't have to do that. You have both the skills and the equipment to cut the whole scene short by KILLING that guy, if you wanted to. That means you win by walking away and letting the little dogs yap if they want. They lose because they didn't get the fight they wanted; you win because you know you have the ability to take them if it comes to that anyway.

Your sister was in no physical danger in that time and in that place -- until YOU put her there by mouthing back at the punk. That you had to draw the gun was a failure, not a victory.

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Old July 26, 2009, 09:47 AM   #42
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I have to agree about walking away. In many locations any type of "fighting" conviction would probably cost you your CCW permit. Luckily this ended well for the OP.
Best,
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Old July 26, 2009, 10:00 AM   #43
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Pax,
The Monkey Dance article is extremely informative, thanks for posting the link.
Best,
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Old July 26, 2009, 10:01 AM   #44
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Its hard to walk away. These guys were clearly punks though so my guess is you taught each other something. They will watch who they try and jump and you will watch what you say to people in anger. Hard way to learn but at least you didn't go to jail.
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Old July 26, 2009, 10:26 AM   #45
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This all comes down to the same old, "Should you run, or should you fight?"

Fight, fight, fight. If you are in the right, fight. Not always with physical force, and not always with words, but when you are wronged, fight. Blindly accepting it is why our society remains the way it does. The apathy I see on this bored every day just makes me shake my head in disgust

Responding in kind to an attack, any kind of an attack, is not an escalation. At any time the initiating party, assuming they are in the wrong, can walk away or shut up. It's not about establishing dominance, it's about refusing to to be dominated.
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Old July 26, 2009, 10:46 AM   #46
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All it takes is 3 words. I am 5'10' and 145 pounds. I am kinda average height but I am SKINNY! Those magical 3 words are "Thats my sister..."
You would be surprised at how a small amount of intimidation in a shadow dance will do you good.
Pick your battles, cause you picked the wrong one. Waiting for him to get that close, you were either brain dead at the moment, or just wanted to show off your piece. I am not usually this harsh about things but thats what it seems like to me.
"Stop following us or I will defend myself" "Do not get any closer or I will defend myself"
You could have gotten in the car and started driving with the gun within reach instead of your holster(idk if you can in GA you can have it anywhere if you have your permit)
175 is not that bad. My best friend is 6'4" and 240. I stood up to him plenty of times.
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Old July 26, 2009, 10:48 AM   #47
MLeake
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Have you ever considered...

... that in addition to advocating "fight, fight, fight" as a basic philosophy in a public forum, that the Rampage name might come back to bite you if you ever get charged with any sort of violent crime (IE something for which you would claim self defense)?
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Old July 26, 2009, 10:51 AM   #48
MLeake
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Have you also considered...

... that by conditioning yourself to a response that you must act if anybody provokes you, you give the power in the situation to everybody else but you?

If I have to fight, I will. If I prefer to walk away, I can. My choice, not some idiot's.

If I think something needs to be corrected, there are ways to achieve that which do not require direct confrontation.

Sometimes, direct confrontation may be necessary. The thing is, I get to decide that. The other guy does not, short of actual violence.

Last edited by MLeake; July 26, 2009 at 10:52 AM. Reason: grammar and parallel structure...
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Old July 26, 2009, 10:51 AM   #49
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rampage you are insecure as all hell. i know that no one is going to dominate me. why don't you?
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Old July 26, 2009, 11:17 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyo
Pick your battles, cause you picked the wrong one. Waiting for him to get that close, you were either brain dead at the moment, or just wanted to show off your piece. I am not usually this harsh about things but thats what it seems like to me.
"Stop following us or I will defend myself" "Do not get any closer or I will defend myself"
He followed me out into the parking lot. The only way i could have gotten further away was by running and im not going to risk him being faster than me or my sister. Ive been carrying for 4 months and i still get nervous when i think someone spots my gun. I no not enjoy "showing it off". I told him multiple times i didnt want to fight and that he needed to leave.
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