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Old July 25, 2009, 12:03 PM   #76
MLeake
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Brent, in my experience, on the occasions I did any serious punching, lips were split and noses were bloodied. (Not counting kempo sparring, with gloves, 20 years ago - those punches weren't serious, and we were padded)

I've never seen anybody take multiple shots from a hard object and not show obvious signs of damage afterward, though. Those skateboards weren't connecting in a serious manner.

As I noted earlier, look at the punches the skater throws from mount. He's throwing a lot of quick, back and forth pendulum punches, and only one connects going forward. It connects awkwardly for both the skater and the gangsta, and probably hurt the skater's wrist more than the gangsta's head.

The only one that connects on the backswing is on the back of his wrist and hand, not on the knuckles. That's how I throw a backfist when practicing drills with a partner, when I want to connect but NOT hurt him.

If the skater wasn't just putting on a show, then he seriously needs to work on his punching.
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Old July 25, 2009, 12:30 PM   #77
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...your right to self defense continues until BG consents in some way to giving up his efforts to hurt you.
That's part of it, but even if he hasn't given up, when he no longer has the reasonable means to hurt you your right to use deadly force ends.

You can't automatically continue using deadly force until he gives up/consents to stop trying to hurt you/stops moving/stops trying to get to his feet/is compliant. You have to stop when he no longer poses a reasonable and immediate threat of serious injury or death.

For example, if a person A pulls a gun on person B who is armed with a makeshift impact weapon, person B has the right to use his impact weapon in self-defense against person A. Once person A is disarmed, now (barring other issues such as a large difference in size, strength or skill), person B (with his impact weapon) enjoys a disparity of force over person A and probably can't legally continue beating him with his impact weapon unless there is no other way for him to disengage to safety or unless that's his only reasonable option for preventing person A from getting his gun back.

In a similar situation you may still be able to use force at that point but as soon as the attacker does not pose a credible and immediate threat of serious injury or death to you the justification for deadly force ends.

The point is that you can't keep beating someone with an impact weapon simply because they are still moving/struggling/trying to get to their feet. Legally you must stop when they no longer pose an immediate and credible threat of serious injury or death. EVEN if they're still moving/struggling/trying to get up.
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...therefore justify further defensive action by the victim?
Well, further defensive action would be called for-- but that could include retreating and confiscating the pistol which wouldn't involve any force at all. If a Grand Jury/prosecutor/jury feels that a reasonable person (whose concern was personal safety and not revenge) would have disengaged rather than continue beating the person then the situation is no longer about self-defense at all. You absolutely don't have the right to punish someone for committing a crime against you, you only have the right to stop them from hurting or killing you.

Furthermore, even if further defensive action is justified under the law it's a HUGE mistake to believe that just because "further defensive action" is justified that deadly force is automatically justified. If it is reasonable (and sufficient) to use force (not deadly force) or the threat of force/deadly force would reasonably be expected to end the threat to the defender and the use of such means didn't expose the defender to the threat of serious injury or death then deadly force would be illegal.
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Old July 25, 2009, 01:08 PM   #78
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Furthermore, even if further defensive action is justified under the law it's a HUGE mistake to believe that just becuse "further defensive action" is justified that deadly force is automatically justified.
I agree with everything you said, but I'm not sure you and I are looking at the same video, or at least the same things in the same video.

Here is what I am referring to: The skateboarder, towards the end of the fight, tried to get up and end the fight, such as it is. The gunman, even though he has been relieved of the gun (at least it no longer shows upon the video), and taking some lumps from his intended victim, grabs the skateboarder and pulls him back down. Essentially, I am saying that the skateboarder attempted to retreat and that the gunman is the one who took the action that made the engagement continue. At least, that is my interpretation of what I see in the video.

The skateboarder then popped him a couple of more times, and tried again to get away. That does not seem to me to be either deadly force or unjustified. Are you really saying that if a BG continues to engage you as you retreat (or attempt to retreat) that further use of force is unjustified? In other words, do your rights to self defense end when you attempt to retreat? I wouldn't think so, but I will yield to those more versed in the law than I.

It would seem to me that an unintended consequence of such an interpretation of the law would be an escalation of defensive force; i.e., I would want to be sure that BG was completely incapacitated (as in dead or unconscious) before I retreated. If I cannot legally continue to defend myself if the BG continues to attack or engage during my retreat, then I have to maximize the damage to him before I attempt retreat in order to be more certain that my retreat is successful. That doesn't seem to be in line with good law or good tactics, unless we are going to start indulging those who look for excuses to plug people.

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Old July 25, 2009, 03:15 PM   #79
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John I see where your coming from. I would retract what I said before for the most part but I would do what I could to detain the GB until LEO arrived and I could turn him over to them. In NC we can not make a citizens arrest but we are allowed to citizen detention. I would try this route on the grounds that he just threatened my life with a deadly weapon, which I would think falls under aggravated assault. Which would give grounds to detain. Under NC law private citizen is under a duty to retreat unless in doing so he would be placed in greater danger. Which I would think in this situation would put oneself in greater danger.

Under G.S. 15A-404 in section C is the manner of detention.
(c) Manner of Detention. - The detention must be in a reasonable manner considering the offense involved and the circumstances of the detention.

While this is pretty broad I'm sure it would cover a greater force given the weapon invovled. I would do what the kid did initially until I was sure he was not a threat anymore. While continuous blows to the skull are probably not justified I'm sure the first few in the beginning of the scuffle were.

I am also not an attorney, I don't have a law background. I'm just throwing some things out there.
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Old July 25, 2009, 07:35 PM   #80
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TailGator,

I started out by responding to a specific comment made, not by analyzing the details of the encounter in the video. If what you say about the video is correct then your assessment of the legality of the skateboarder's response is probably correct as well.

Thursday,

Detaining people against their will is legally risky if you are not an LEO. I would recommend that you consult an attorney before incorporating it into your strategy/tactics.
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Old July 25, 2009, 10:23 PM   #81
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This video is as real as it gets. You don't stage this kind of stuff in broad daylight on public property with a POS camera phone. As far as the lack of blood goes... it's hard to tell with the video quality, but even if the GB isn't bleeding that doesn't mean he's not swollen and bruised. I've taken a few shots myself that were thrown with bad intentions. The ones that connected to the forehead and temple area hurt like a sonofabich and really rung my bell, but never bled.

Also, your not gonna find this story in your daily paper. If this was in a big city it would hardly be considered newsworthy. Besides, nobody was gonna wait for the cops to show. Even the skater dudes don't want that attention. They likely don't get along with the law well either.

Another thing, if this skater kid happened to legaly have a gun, he would have been within his rights to use it on the GB. So why all the fuss about excessive force? If you're fighting for your life you make sure the other guy ain't gettin up.
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Old July 25, 2009, 10:35 PM   #82
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he,s right I once got jumped walking home late at nightby 4 homies
held my own for a minute but it was soon a boot party,the only place i was bleeding was from my knukles .i had lumps every were head back arms legs
eyes lip no bleeding.found two of them weeks later with a friend of mine
we had alittle chat
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Old July 25, 2009, 10:49 PM   #83
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I wonder how many times the actions of the skaters has been criticized or decried as opposed to the gang banger? Personally, I think its a sad state of affairs that we aren't on our feet applauding any time evil is stomped into the ground. If ALL thugs were met with the same fate, this thug wouldn't have been waving his little piece around in broad daylight.

I'm so tired of the outcry when a thug runs into someone who is a better fighter than he is. The POOR GUY, look at the beating he took! IT breaks my heart. :barf:
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Old July 25, 2009, 11:10 PM   #84
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The punches, with one exception, are NOT connecting

seriously, they are not. The skater's fist swings forward past the banger's head, then back past the banger's head, multiple times, no break in rythm, no interruption. He's not punching, he's keeping time. The motion is not consistent with punches connecting.

Also, the skater keeps swinging around the forehead and top of the head of the gangsta... nobody in their right mind does that, unless they want to break a hand - or, unless they want to be able to miss really close and make it look good. The target area is not one that anybody would actually go for. Jaw, nose, eyes, maybe temples; definitely not the top of the head.

The crappy video is in keeping with other hoax videos. As far as Sixer's comment, "Also, your not gonna find this story in your daily paper. If this was in a big city it would hardly be considered newsworthy," I'd have to call BS. A thug pulls a gun on kids near a public building (looks like a school or other city/county owned facility) and it wouldn't be considered newsworthy? Yeah, right... I've lived in some major cities, and this would have made TV and front page news in any of them.

This is fake. It's right up there with the bogus "confiscated" video of the rednecks chasing the yuppie in the convertible...
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Old July 25, 2009, 11:30 PM   #85
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Who do you think is going to report this? The skater... no, the thug...nope, bystanders... probably, but nobody involved is gonna hang around to give an interview or make a statement.

What are the cops gonna do? Drop what theyre doing and start a massive search for a thug with a gun and every kid with a skatebord... There will be no report, thus no names and no news.

PS - The video is real.
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Old July 25, 2009, 11:30 PM   #86
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Looks like there may be a second fight in the background

Thanks for posting this and drawing our attention to it. Interesting and edifying.

I haven't seen any comment from the FLF folks about what appears to be a second scrap, in the background on the sidewalk, with several others. Watch the video from 1:00 to about 1:35, especially around 1:18 ff.

What do you make of the apparent second fight?
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Old July 25, 2009, 11:32 PM   #87
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Wow!!!, I'm glad to be in the great wastes of the Far West, in the boondocks.I found myself in such situations a few time but without the physical part...I don't see anything wrong with the skateman trying to get away and he was pretty brave in my book . The GB is lucky to have got away with a couple bumps and scratches. In the background, I think there was another GB getting beat up. The first fat one with the gun was just trying to show off to his buddies how big he was.
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Old July 25, 2009, 11:42 PM   #88
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Sorry, Sixer, your premise is false.

You say, "What are the cops gonna do? Drop what theyre doing and start a massive search for a thug with a gun and every kid with a skatebord... There will be no report, thus no names and no news."

Wrong. Investigators would look at street, buildings, area features visible in video and figure out roughly where this happened, and probably exactly where it happened within short order.

If the gang bangers are really gang bangers, the video will be brought to the attention of the local PD or SD gang unit, who will probably know who the guys are.

The security guard should be easy to find. And so on.

To name three examples of videos that came back to bite their posters:

Lakeland, FL cheerleader beatdown;

and

guy speeding in Ferrari and filming it;

and

bumfights video.

In all those cases, the cops and DA found videos they thought were real, they investigated, they charged, and they prosecuted, and they obtained either guilty verdicts or plea bargains.

I think some people just really, really want this video to be real because it indulges their sense of how things should work.

Again, the punches being thrown by the skater show that either this video was fake, or else he really doesn't know where to aim a punch, and can't connect anyway. Either this video was fake, or the skaters just weren't worried about the gang bangers having addtional weapons. Either the video was fake, or the skaters never really worried that much about the gang bangers.

Too many weird things have to have happened in order to make this a real vid. Occham's razor says it's a hoax.
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Old July 25, 2009, 11:55 PM   #89
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Wrong. Investigators would look at street, buildings, area features visible in video and figure out roughly where this happened, and probably exactly where it happened within short order.
I agree that this would be the case IF there was a dead or severely beaten body... but there isn't. We have no idea how old this video is. It's very unlikely that the police saw it before it made its way online. What makes you think the cops are gonna put all that time and effort over a little street brawl?

Go on YouTube and run a search for "street fights". You'll get thousands of hits. Let me know how many of those videos you think the police investigated.
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Old July 26, 2009, 12:01 AM   #90
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IF this is real...

... then those skaters really need to learn how to fight.

The one in the grey sweatshirt hit his buddy with the skateboard more than he hit the gangsta.

It looks like the first skater scored a few more hits than I credited him for, at first, but of those one was glancing off the cheek (and could have been either a convincing fake or a barely connected shot) and the others were, once again, off the top of the head.

The grey sweatshirt skater, when he went to fists, was also punching at the top of the gangsta's head.

And again, what happened to the gun?

If this isn't fake, then it's a good example of people who act tough but don't know what they're doing.
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Old July 26, 2009, 12:34 AM   #91
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At about 1:13 to 1:15, I think I am seeing a kid to left of GB/SB reaching down for the gun...
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Old July 26, 2009, 01:20 AM   #92
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here is what I saw,

Skateboarder tried to walk away, GB pointed his gun twice at him, you can see the escalation of anger in GB, skateboarder allowed to get in close, attempt a disarm, and proceed to subdue. Of course, he was ******, on top of which these look like young teenagers. But did you see the Gb buddy in the background gettin his beatdown as well. there were two more skateboarders on him. I am curious as to how this ended.

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Old July 26, 2009, 02:43 AM   #93
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For those calling fake, watch it again. Some of the first shots landed squarely on the chin and the GB could have had a glass jaw for all we know.

Also remember these aren't the protege of the likes of Chuck Norris or Bruce Lee. If there is a fight that breaks out with the kids I work with it looks alot like this. Some of the blows that landed are similar to some I have experienced but most were midsection and you will barely feel them but multiple hits to the head eventually accumulate and some of those were harder than you may think.

I still don't see how this is tactics and training. Maybe a suggestion we need more training to hone our tactics so we don't look ridiculous like these clowns?
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Old July 26, 2009, 06:54 PM   #94
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Being 18 and from neighborhoods in indio and the likes this happens on occaison... usually not a gun involved but he tried to walk away... the GB is the loser here in every angle the way I see it... and he definately wasnt a real gang banger because he wouldnt of cared or he would have just shot him anyways... the guy was trying to be big and bad so he thought hed bully some skaters... tactically it all sucked... but keep in mind no one here would be in that predicament... do any of you skate? or expect some gang banger to push you around while he is by himself and there are more of you? wouldnt you just walk away and when he grabbed you again what would you do? the video is proof that animal mentality is the last resort but its better than stupidity...
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Old July 26, 2009, 07:34 PM   #95
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This is the way fist fights look in real life. Just like a real life gunfight doesn't look like a duel in a Western movie, a fist fight between two hoods doesn't look like the friggin Karate Kid. If the skateboarder really did have some background in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, then the banger is lucky he didn't get choked until he was unconsious or get his legs or arms broken. Getting punched is pretty painless as compared to some of the chokes and joint locks a well trained BJJ practitioner can get you in. I think there are a number of us on here that would agree the banger got away light, considering that if he did that to me, even if I didn't have a pistol on me, I'd still have a knife or maybe two that I would have used.
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Old July 26, 2009, 09:33 PM   #96
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I've seen a few fistfights over the years. If this video was real, these guys were really not very good. Maybe that means that's actually a good thing, and normally, they're peaceable, decent types.

However, I guess there's no easy way to prove either way.

Tactically, the only things to learn, if this is a real video:

1) Don't trust the mere possession of a gun to guarantee others will react in the way you want;

2) If you close to contact range, you defeat one of the strengths of a projectile weapon;

3) It's good to know how to use your weapon, if you are going to; this applies to guns, fists, and skateboards, in the video;

4) If dealing with a group of adversaries, it's a bad idea to split up.

Cheers, out.
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Old July 27, 2009, 09:45 AM   #97
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he was laying there covering himself and they were beating him
What I saw is a gang banger that got in over his head. I have a close friend that is in the martial arts. He picked the video apart for some technical stuff, but said the skate board guy had no choice in beating the gang guy into submission.

If you think he was "laying there covering himself" .... If you watch it again, he is in a clench with the skateboarder guy. HE would not let go... HE kept trying to hold on to the other guy...

Did you miss the other guy that rode up with the gangster on the bike...? What was he doing? Could he have come up and shot the skateboarder? I think that the other skateboarder guys took care of him...

But you are allowed to use force enough to stop the threat, and most generally, are allowed to use the force on the BAD GUY what you FEAR FROM HIM. What do you think the skateboarder guy can fear from the bad guy if he has a gun pointed at his head?
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Old July 27, 2009, 11:13 AM   #98
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I lost count in school of how many fights I saw where both guys had their eyes shut and were just throwing punches.

From my watching it could be fake, it could be real and the skater's only training is watching UFC on tv.

But in any case it's obvious the guy didn't know what he was doing, he kept punching to the head.
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Old July 27, 2009, 12:47 PM   #99
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But in any case it's obvious the guy didn't know what he was doing, he kept punching to the head.
Man, I gotta disagree... for one the GB outweighed the Skater kid by about 30lbs. The skater also kept his cool while having a gun pointed in his face. When it came time to get physical, he didn't throw some wild haymaker... he popped him in the chin with a short, quick elbow that wobbled the GB.
For a few seconds the camera goes nuts and then we see the skater and GB both on the ground.

At this point it almost looks like the skater is punching from his back, but his shots are landing. He manages to get the dominant position on the GB and hits him with a good right hand. Now he's got the thug (who is still trying to fight back) in a full mount, and the skater goes to the "ground and pound". The skater doesn't land most of these punches, but he keeps busy on offense.

The skater effectively disarms the GB, and gives him a good beatdown. The skater was in more danger from his idiot, board swinging, buddy than anything. All in all I think he did a pretty good job and it ended well.
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Old July 27, 2009, 06:38 PM   #100
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the only thing I would have done instead would have to be taking the gun and backed away... I have a feeling I have more of a background then that kid does in MA but he was not a "gang banger"... yet again he was a wannabe and thought this made him look "bad"...
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