The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old July 23, 2009, 12:56 PM   #1
Hornett
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 1, 2006
Posts: 569
Poice raid wrong house. What do you do?

This has happened in my area and I have always wondered, what to do?

This may not belong here, because I would sure not want to start shooting.

But, How can you tell if the guys busting down our front door are real police or not.
And what is the best way to convey your innocence?
What happened here was a mistake in the intel.
The team got the wrong address and busted in a house of someone totally innocent.
Lawsuits, trials, and jury awards proceeded, but I can't help but think there is some really good way do quickly explain your innocence and prevent your whole family from being drug out of bed and handcuffed.
__________________
Guns don't kill people, Jack Bauer kills people.
Hornett is offline  
Old July 23, 2009, 01:32 PM   #2
scottaschultz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2009
Location: Missouri
Posts: 392
First rule when dealing with LEO's - COOPERATE!

They aren't busting in the door to have a friendly chat over tea and cookies! The slightest bit of resistance will likely end in a very bad, and permanent result for you.

If you are innocent, it will be found out when they take you "downtown for questioning". At that point, you have every right to take legal action against the department and the city or county (whoever employes the agency).

Scott
__________________
"I don't like repeat offenders, I like dead offenders!" Ted Nugent
scottaschultz is offline  
Old July 23, 2009, 01:35 PM   #3
CorpITGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 14, 2009
Posts: 113
Not too long ago, I read about a case where someone had seen that in a town near them, a home invasion was covered up as a police raid... only after the BGs shot innocents did the homeowners realize they weren't really cops. Flash forward to a few weeks later, cops raided the wrong house, innocent homeowner (assuming it was the same BGs) opened firing, killing the real, good guy cops...

Bad, bad deal.
CorpITGuy is offline  
Old July 23, 2009, 01:37 PM   #4
Sixer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 16, 2008
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,891
I would think in my situation... If a well trained SWAT team decided to raid my house in the middle of the night, I probably wouldn't have time to take up arms or even make it out of bed.

We're not talking small time crooks here, who might trip over a sprinkler or knock over a yard knome. Unless you have a dog or two, I'd say there is a good chance you wouldn't hear them coming until you were already face down on the floor.

I dont know... just a thought.
__________________
Hopp Custom Leather <------ click for HOLSTER awesomeness!!

-There is no theory of evolution... Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.
Sixer is offline  
Old July 23, 2009, 01:41 PM   #5
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,071
first and foremost, if I haven't commited a crime worthy of a no knock warrant being served, I can safely guess that any one entering with force is a home invading intruder and will be dealt with as such. I ain't believing anyone claiming LEO status if I am not involved in criminal activity.
If I submit and they are real LEO's and making an error, I bet I get little more than a "Sorry 'bout that..." from the dept... Little recourse for a real "mental anguish and suffering" suit.

Had to add... I do have several dogs and one will be shot dead as she will engage the threat as I roll from my bed grabbing the shot gun and bringing it to bear.
Brent

Last edited by hogdogs; July 23, 2009 at 01:43 PM. Reason: Had to add....
hogdogs is offline  
Old July 23, 2009, 01:43 PM   #6
arcticap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 2,973
If you're not sure that they are real cops, then retreat to a safe room and call the local police to either verify who they are or to report the unlawful invasion.
They should properly identify themselves at some point during the raid, especially if there's a mistake.
arcticap is offline  
Old July 23, 2009, 01:53 PM   #7
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,071
Articap, I am not wasting precious seconds during a home invasion to call 911, My wife will be reporting the home invasion as I go try to keep my family safe. Like I said, since I and my family members are upstanding law abiding folks, we have no reason to fear a LEO assault on my abode.
All I know is I have cherished 8 year old dog that needed no training nor encouragement to become quite a threat to the uninvited. If I hear a gun shot, I will send 5 rounds down range nearly instantly and retreat for the rifle.
As a law abiding citizen NO ONE should fear a home invasion by anyone wearing any attire... ESPECIALLY A BADGED UNIFORM!!!
Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old July 23, 2009, 02:16 PM   #8
TenmaNeko
Member
 
Join Date: June 10, 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 62
Exactly.

This is why no-knock raids get innocent people killed. An informant lies to get out of trouble, an address is misread, or filed wrong. Someone dies, either a cop or an innocent homeowner.

In Ohio a couple years ago a man heard someone breaking into his house, so he grabbed his rifle. His daughter got to watch as cops shot him to death. The police were there searching for a marijuana grow-op. They didn't find one.

Sad, sad, sad.
TenmaNeko is offline  
Old July 23, 2009, 02:17 PM   #9
scottaschultz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2009
Location: Missouri
Posts: 392
Some of you guys are real entertaining, that's what you are!

If this is the "real deal" and they believe they are at the right address, you aren't going to have time to "retreat to a safe room" and if by chance you do get to your gun before they make it to your room, when they see you with your shotgun "bringing it to bear", you will be dead before you get a single shot off!

You may think you have enough training for that eventual day when you might have to deal with a BG, but these guys train for it because it is their job to take out BG's.

Of course you are a law abiding citizen who should not fear a visit from the SWAT team, but that doesn't mean they don't make mistakes. Obviously they do!

I promise you that you are not smarter than them, you are not faster than them and you do not have more firepower than they have. Don't be stupid!

As my fellow Missourian Sixer said, "...there is a good chance you wouldn't hear them coming until you were already face down on the floor. "

Scott
__________________
"I don't like repeat offenders, I like dead offenders!" Ted Nugent

Last edited by scottaschultz; July 23, 2009 at 02:33 PM.
scottaschultz is offline  
Old July 23, 2009, 02:33 PM   #10
Edward429451
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2000
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 9,494
...maybe. Unless you slow down their entry. It's not that hard to fortify entry points to give you some reaction time.

Be they bonifide LEO or not.
Edward429451 is offline  
Old July 23, 2009, 02:33 PM   #11
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,071
Quote:
If this is the "real deal" and they believe they are at the right address, you aren't going to have time to "retreat to a safe room" and if by chance you do get to your gun before they make it to your room, when they see you with your shotgun aimed in their direction, you will be dead before you get a single shot off!
I assure you, will get one shot off! Maybe more...
Quote:
Of course you are a law abiding citizen who should not fear a visit from the SWAT team, but that doesn't mean they don't make mistakes. Obviously they do!
There is no more excuse for a bad raid as there is for a citizen to shoot an innocent person... Actually they have less room for error as pros!
Quote:
I promise you that you are not smarter than them, you are not faster than them and you do not have more firepower than they have. Don't be stupid!
I don't claim to be... But I am not under the impression I am being raided by LEOs so i am handling this as a home invasion which it is.
Quote:
As my fellow Missourian Sixer said, "...there is a good chance you wouldn't hear them coming until you were already face down on the floor. "
Actually, as I stated before, I will be awake before the door is touched, I will be on my feet with gun in hand when the door is breeched and and firing when the main dog is shot.
And if I get shot for defending my home, my wife has the number to the best lawyers in florida to take care of the law suits for my loss of life due to negligent police work.
Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old July 23, 2009, 02:35 PM   #12
arcticap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 2,973
Quote:
Articap, I am not wasting precious seconds during a home invasion to call 911, My wife will be reporting the home invasion as I go try to keep my family safe. Like I said, since I and my family members are upstanding law abiding folks, we have no reason to fear a LEO assault on my abode.
The OP clearly said that he wasn't going to be shooting and he understands the potential that it was a police mistake.

Quote:
This may not belong here, because I would sure not want to start shooting.

But, How can you tell if the guys busting down our front door are real police or not.
And what is the best way to convey your innocence?
What happened here was a mistake in the intel.
The team got the wrong address and busted in a house of someone totally innocent.
Lawsuits, trials, and jury awards proceeded, but I can't help but think there is some really good way do quickly explain your innocence and prevent your whole family from being drug out of bed and handcuffed.
I contend that there's nothing wrong with trying to retreat in order to verify who they are and/or to report the home invasion to the authorities. Anyone who wants to take a chance and try to commit a capital felony of shooting an officer is free to make that choice however ill advised.
Especially if someone knows that they're the cops, then shooting isn't an option for the law abiding citizen no matter how outraged they may feel about their dog being shot.

Quote:
All I know is I have cherished 8 year old dog that needed no training nor encouragement to become quite a threat to the uninvited.
If I hear a gun shot, I will send 5 rounds down range nearly instantly and retreat for the rifle.
As a law abiding citizen NO ONE should fear a home invasion by anyone wearing any attire... ESPECIALLY A BADGED UNIFORM!!!

Last edited by arcticap; July 23, 2009 at 02:52 PM.
arcticap is offline  
Old July 23, 2009, 02:44 PM   #13
Edward429451
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 12, 2000
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 9,494
How do you verify if they're real LEO before it's too late to defend against them if they are not? Hmm?
Edward429451 is offline  
Old July 23, 2009, 02:46 PM   #14
OuTcAsT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,193
Quote:
I promise you that you are not smarter than them, you are not faster than them and you do not have more firepower than they have. Don't be stupid!
I sincerely hope you are not an LE officer, and if you are, I sincerely hope you do not actually subscribe to what you wrote. If you actually live by your assumption, you might be surprised at the amount of intelligence, skill, and firepower that exists in the "general population", an underestimation that could be dangerous.
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood

Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska -
OuTcAsT is offline  
Old July 23, 2009, 02:58 PM   #15
arcticap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Central Connecticut
Posts: 2,973
I saw a regional SWAT team in action in my neighborhood against a would be "sniper" who took a random shot out of his window into a neighboring window and then shot up his own apartment.
The ordeal lasted 6-8 hours, the law tossed in grenades, had the place surrounded, had snipers with .308's, they all had bulletproof vests [most w/helmets] and they brought in a heavily armored vehicle.
The kook eventually came out with his hands up. End of story.

Last edited by arcticap; July 23, 2009 at 03:08 PM.
arcticap is offline  
Old July 23, 2009, 03:03 PM   #16
Willie Lowman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2009
Location: Uh-Hi-O
Posts: 2,420
There are lots of us that go to work knowing that there is some hazard waiting that could cost us or lives. All it takes is one mistake and *POW* you are dead. The mistake could be getting a boom into power lines, the mistake could be letting the people in the crack house know that you are coming.

We take precautions to not get killed, like marking where the buried gas lines are or double checking the address of that crack house.

If someone is storming into your house shouting "Police!" you have few options. How you tell if those folks are the police, I don't know.

I do know that the cops in my town did a no-knock on a guy's house when they were looking for his neighbor from down the road. The neighbor wasn't home so they thought they would check around... But that is a story for another day.
Willie Lowman is offline  
Old July 23, 2009, 03:10 PM   #17
ZeSpectre
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2007
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Posts: 3,276
Sometimes you are just plain jacked.
Wish I had something more encouraging to say but that's life.
__________________
"The dogs may bark but the caravan moves on"
ZeSpectre is offline  
Old July 23, 2009, 04:40 PM   #18
A_McDougal
Member
 
Join Date: May 1, 2009
Posts: 48
If you are the victim of a wrong address police raid, you can choose 'Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death', or you can choose to be a serf like the rest of us, begging permission to request our rights. If you hurt a cop at all, you'll be the next Ronnie White (search Ronnie White, Maryland, suicide if you don't know his story).
A_McDougal is offline  
Old July 23, 2009, 05:03 PM   #19
Sparks2112
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 3, 2008
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 479
Quote:
Some of you guys are real entertaining, that's what you are!

If this is the "real deal" and they believe they are at the right address, you aren't going to have time to "retreat to a safe room" and if by chance you do get to your gun before they make it to your room, when they see you with your shotgun "bringing it to bear", you will be dead before you get a single shot off!
Just cause you think someone can get into your house that fast, doesn't mean everyone else has left themselves equally as vulnerable.

I'm not saying someone couldn't get into my house if they tried. I'm just saying it would take them signifigantly longer than they thought it was going to.
__________________
--
Sparks
AKA
J.M. Johnston
Sparks2112 is offline  
Old July 23, 2009, 05:08 PM   #20
ZeSpectre
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2007
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Posts: 3,276
Quote:
I'm not saying someone couldn't get into my house if they tried. I'm just saying it would take them signifigantly longer than they thought it was going to.
Amen on that. My house is quickly getting there as we do the remodeling
__________________
"The dogs may bark but the caravan moves on"
ZeSpectre is offline  
Old July 23, 2009, 05:24 PM   #21
Terry A
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 27, 2008
Location: Washington, Pa
Posts: 757
Quote:
Today 02:43 PM
arcticap If you're not sure that they are real cops, then retreat to a safe room and call the local police to either verify who they are or to report the unlawful invasion.
They should properly identify themselves at some point during the raid, especially if there's a mistake.
Today 02:41 PM

Just trust me on this, there'll be NO TIME to do anything but maybe sit up in bed if it's a trained entry team.

I promise I'm not trying to sound like a know it all or brag or anything like that. But I've been a full time officer since 1981. I was on our county Drug Task Force entry team for 10 years. There is so much planning and rehearsing that goes into a raid. Before a house was hit, we knew which way the doors opened, inward or outward. Knew if there were dogs inside or not. Children or visitors. Location of bedrooms. Most of this came from informants who bought there or frequented the house, some came from officers who had handled calls there before. Every man on the entry team had a purpose. Some were dedicated to the stairwell and second floor. Some flooded the basement. If there were kids in the house and there were vicious dogs, one man was going in with a fire extinguisher for the dog. We had rifleman posted outside covering the upstairs or outside while the entry team approached. The breacher either broke thru or tore off the door and instantly, the house flooded with men who were trained to assault structures.
Over in a flash. Usually between 0300 and 0500. And even in the rare instances where there was somebody awake or walking around inside, the sheer surprise and speed so disoriented them that they mostly just screamed and froze in place before being instantly taken under control.

IF, and I never seen it happen, but IF someone ran for another room, there WOULD be men on him just as fast. IF he was able to slam a door, they are coming right thru it. They won't set up and stage unless it's a safe room with a steel door that somehow gets slammed before they get there.

Am I saying that no person can still get off a shot or shots at officers? No. Plenty of lawmen have been killed by all kinds of people with all kinds of weapons. But I am saying that the odds are really in favor of the speed and surprise in which the police do these things.

And ours was a small time outfit. The big city fellas are even faster and better trained. Professionals who do this regularly are not to be trifled with. Mistakes do happen for sure, but they're so rare that that is why you hear about them when they happen.

***And for the brethren here who think they have really fortified their homes against break ins, well, we've had houses where there were cameras on all 4 sides of the house and the doors were steel, windows fortified, etc. And all that was nothing compared to a tow truck that just rips the whole contraption off and while their door frame and door is clattering down the street...SURPRISE!

The police WILL get inside and it WILL be fast.
__________________
2 Thes 3:16 "Now may the Lord of peace Himself continually grant you peace in every circumstance. The Lord be with you all! "
Terry A is offline  
Old July 23, 2009, 05:34 PM   #22
OuTcAsT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,193
Quote:
***And for the brethren here who think they have really fortified their homes against break ins, well, we've had houses where there were cameras on all 4 sides of the house and the doors were steel, windows fortified, etc. And all that was nothing compared to a tow truck that just rips the whole contraption off and while their door frame and door is clattering down the street...SURPRISE!
True, but you are leaving out some small details, like, you gotta get TO the house first. I am 99.8% sure you will not do it without giving me "advance notice" of your arrival. As for the rest, Chance favors the prepared
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood

Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska -
OuTcAsT is offline  
Old July 23, 2009, 05:39 PM   #23
Kyo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 14, 2009
Posts: 897
if people storm my house and I know I did nothing wrong, but I defend my home from them, can I get in trouble? If they thought my house was the right one but it wasn't, and they blatantly got it wrong, am I screwed anyway? just curious
Kyo is offline  
Old July 23, 2009, 05:39 PM   #24
hogdogs
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,071
Quote:
Before a house was hit, we knew which way the doors opened, inward or outward. Knew if there were dogs inside or not. Children or visitors. Location of bedrooms. Most of this came from informants who bought there or frequented the house, some came from officers who had handled calls there before.
Thus, with all that prior planning we don't have to worry about the wrong house being raided! Only the bad guy will have his door kicked in, correct?

As for my place... There is zero chance that any of the four corners will be covered before numerous dogs alert. No one will be within 15 feet of my front door before i am awake with gun in hand. You see, I have numerous house dogs in all quadrants of the home and a yard full of hunting dogs outdoors. House is 100 yards from the roadway and the drive way isn't smooth. My dogs alert on any sound that creeps in and the windows are never closed!
But this is nothing for worry since you told us that the wrong house won't be hit as all sorts of previous surveillance has ruled out those sorts of mistakes.
Brent
hogdogs is offline  
Old July 23, 2009, 05:42 PM   #25
csmsss
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Orange, TX
Posts: 2,986
Quote:
Just trust me on this, there'll be NO TIME to do anything but maybe sit up in bed if it's a trained entry team.

I promise I'm not trying to sound like a know it all or brag or anything like that. But I've been a full time officer since 1981. I was on our county Drug Task Force entry team for 10 years. There is so much planning and rehearsing that goes into a raid. Before a house was hit, we knew which way the doors opened, inward or outward. Knew if there were dogs inside or not. Children or visitors. Location of bedrooms. Most of this came from informants who bought there or frequented the house, some came from officers who had handled calls there before. Every man on the entry team had a purpose. Some were dedicated to the stairwell and second floor. Some flooded the basement. If there were kids in the house and there were vicious dogs, one man was going in with a fire extinguisher for the dog. We had rifleman posted outside covering the upstairs or outside while the entry team approached. The breacher either broke thru or tore off the door and instantly, the house flooded with men who were trained to assault structures.
Over in a flash. Usually between 0300 and 0500. And even in the rare instances where there was somebody awake or walking around inside, the sheer surprise and speed so disoriented them that they mostly just screamed and froze in place before being instantly taken under control.

IF, and I never seen it happen, but IF someone ran for another room, there WOULD be men on him just as fast. IF he was able to slam a door, they are coming right thru it. They won't set up and stage unless it's a safe room with a steel door that somehow gets slammed before they get there.

Am I saying that no person can still get off a shot or shots at officers? No. Plenty of lawmen have been killed by all kinds of people with all kinds of weapons. But I am saying that the odds are really in favor of the speed and surprise in which the police do these things.

And ours was a small time outfit. The big city fellas are even faster and better trained. Professionals who do this regularly are not to be trifled with. Mistakes do happen for sure, but they're so rare that that is why you hear about them when they happen.

***And for the brethren here who think they have really fortified their homes against break ins, well, we've had houses where there were cameras on all 4 sides of the house and the doors were steel, windows fortified, etc. And all that was nothing compared to a tow truck that just rips the whole contraption off and while their door frame and door is clattering down the street...SURPRISE!

The police WILL get inside and it WILL be fast.
This is pretty comical, actually. SWAT teams are not supermen, and they are not able to miracle their way into a dwelling instantaneously, despite all of your bravado and braggadocio.
csmsss is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:06 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13535 seconds with 7 queries