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Old July 22, 2009, 10:35 PM   #1
Boone Hillbilly
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I was robbed last night...

last night about 4am some low life trash came on my land and stole my brand new Honda 4 wheeler and a brand new $500 stihl weedeater. They were mere feet from my bedroom and even closer to my childrens bedooms. Not really sure how I feel about this or how to react.. hadinsurance on the ATV but of cours enot on the Stihl.. State troopers took a report but said they are backed up like 2 years on cases like this. They tried to take my daughter atv as well but couldent get it out of gear as it is eletric shift.

Any advice here would be great...
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Old July 22, 2009, 10:40 PM   #2
Donn_N
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Advice: Get replacement value insurance on everything you are going to leave easy accessible to thieves.
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Old July 22, 2009, 10:44 PM   #3
Boone Hillbilly
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You can insure a weedeater? I have a gun shop in my home as well and it was mere inches from the cameras view.Drugs are bad here and I would say thats what made it happen..
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Old July 22, 2009, 10:46 PM   #4
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Im very sorry for you. Im glad you and your family (especially your children are safe). When my car was broken into I felt stuck, because it happened 30 ft from where i slept. Anyway, i assume you already have a pistol or shotgun for home defense. And i pray you never have to use it. God bless you man!
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Old July 22, 2009, 10:51 PM   #5
Boone Hillbilly
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I have full autos..lol.. Just makes ya think, hey I have all this "stuff" to protect us and didnt even know anything was wrong.. Dog never even barked.. Did ya want to find the person that sole from you?
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Old July 22, 2009, 11:02 PM   #6
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I have had 1 truck stolen, and 1 that they tried to steal. Both have been into and I am always checking to make sure the alarms are set now. Each time, I have wanted to find the SOBs and kick some a$$. Boone, are you in NC?
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Old July 22, 2009, 11:05 PM   #7
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Since this is the tactics forum and the legal tactics would be VERY different for a robbery vs. a theft I will point out that the crime was not a robbery, it was theft.

Robbery is a violent crime and always involves the robber confronting the victim. Robbery is often legal grounds for use of deadly force.

Theft is a nonviolent crime and involves the criminal taking something (without breaking into a building) without the victim's knowledge. Theft is almost never legal grounds for the use of deadly force.
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Old July 22, 2009, 11:10 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa
Theft is a nonviolent crime and involves the criminal taking something (without breaking into a building) without the victim's knowledge. Theft is almost never legal grounds for the use of deadly force.
If I was to walk outside as this was happening, would you try and detain the crook? Where I live it woudl take police 20 minutes min. to arrive. I am in Boone county WV
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Old July 23, 2009, 12:02 AM   #9
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I do not know the law everywhere, but I feel pretty safe in saying that you would have been within your rights to walk out and confront the person if you found him on your property without your permission.

You would probably be legally justified in arming yourself prior to taking such an action, but I suspect that's a bit less certain.

Had he attacked you when you confronted him you would likely be within your rights to defend yourself, possibly with deadly force under the proper circumstances. This gets a bit shakier since you are the one who chose to initiate the confrontation. It's possible that the law in some areas may hold you responsible (to one extent or another) for anything that happens as a reasonable consequence of your decision to create a confrontation where none existed. You may be legally required to retreat (if that is an option) rather than defend yourself in some areas.

On the other hand, had he chosen to simply leave, even with your property, it is likely that you would have little to no recourse in terms of preventing him from doing so that did not expose you to considerable legal liability. In some areas you would have some legal options, but that tends to be the exception rather than the rule. In general, there's not a good way that will always be legally "safe" to stop a thief from leaving if he decides to leave.

Detaining a person who does not willingly stay put can present a lot of legal liabilities. If you say "Don't move!" and he doesn't then you're probably ok for as long as he stays put. If he tries to leave, it's likely that you don't really have many options for stopping him that don't put you in legal jeopardy.
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Old July 23, 2009, 12:10 AM   #10
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If I was to walk outside as this was happening, would you try and detain the crook? Where I live it woudl take police 20 minutes min. to arrive. I am in Boone county WV
To confront or not to confront is a hotly debated subject over in this forum. It's a tough call to make. Do call the cops then just sit there? Do you confront them and risk a shoot out? Do you let them know you are armed, calling the police and then barricade yourself? If the cops are 20 mins away, barricading yourself might not be the best idea.

Sorry about the the 4 wheelers. I hope the cops get the guys and you get your stuff back in one piece.
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Old July 23, 2009, 12:11 AM   #11
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I know some people are going to start ranting about protecting property with deadly force and how it is "morally" wrong to do so and stupid to risk your life. I'm not of that mindset.

If my car alarm goes off, you better believe that I'm going to inspect what's going on. I will be armed in case the person breaking into my car is armed and threatens me with bodily harm. I will not shoot to defend property, but I will shoot to defend myself. If they leave, then so be it. I will not make it easy and I will not just let them take the things I work hard for.
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Old July 23, 2009, 01:53 AM   #12
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I know some people are going to start ranting about protecting property with deadly force and how it is "morally" wrong to do so and stupid to risk your life. I'm not of that mindset
It may be "morally" wrong in a court of law these days, but not in my eyes. I prefer the good ol' days where horse thieves were strung up from a tall tree. That sent a strong and clear message to other would be thieves.
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Old July 23, 2009, 02:04 AM   #13
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Best thing to have is a barking dog and motion sensor light's on the permisses. I,m going to install some on my Asap.
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Old July 23, 2009, 02:13 AM   #14
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If I was to walk outside as this was happening, would you try and detain the crook? Where I live it woudl take police 20 minutes min. to arrive. I am in Boone county WV


I'd shoot there tire's out on there vehical's (or your's) so there would be no way to escape. I heard of a guy who's house garage was being robbed, he just walked out with his 12 gauge and shot the tire out the bad guy's truck. and ran back inside and called the cop's the guy's left on foot the police got the truck and found out who it was. Good idea if that's you'r situation espacally since you have full auto's now that sound and muzzle flash is real intimdating and not worth the hassle for a weed eater.
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Old July 23, 2009, 02:38 AM   #15
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I had a friend who's car was broken into so often that he just left the doors unlocked and the windows down. It was in Columbus, Ga. His radio and everything had been long ago stolen, so he never left anything of value inside it. Probably happened 5x before he started leaving everything open. The next time, they just stole the whole car and dumped it across the border in AL. He just used the insurance money on a new car, and moved. Let this be a lesson to ya; Don't live any closer to Ft. Benning than exit 7.
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Old July 23, 2009, 03:13 AM   #16
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Quote:
Since this is the tactics forum and the legal tactics would be VERY different for a robbery vs. a theft I will point out that the crime was not a robbery, it was theft.

Robbery is a violent crime and always involves the robber confronting the victim. Robbery is often legal grounds for use of deadly force.

Theft is a nonviolent crime and involves the criminal taking something (without breaking into a building) without the victim's knowledge. Theft is almost never legal grounds for the use of deadly force.

Thank you John for posting that.

I immediately picked up on this but as I continued reading I saw that you addressed this error.

As for leaving your dwelling to confront, I know what I would do and I'll leave my house when it's on fire, and probably not until then. I really do have a "bunker mentality" when it comes to crimes committed on my property. Besides, insurance and the deductible is cheaper than a lawyer for a shooting. Even a "justified" one is costly.

The reason I mention shooting is because anytime you confront someone, and at least one of you has a gun, that's what it has the potential of turning into.

Biker

Last edited by BikerRN; July 23, 2009 at 03:15 AM. Reason: typo
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Old July 23, 2009, 03:41 AM   #17
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As for leaving your dwelling to confront,
I'd like to think that if I'm ever faced with a choice like that I'll stay inside & call the cops. It's certainly the wise decision, regardless of what's within one's legal rights.

Just because a thing is legal doesn't make it smart.
Quote:
...I will not just let them take the things I work hard for.
Barring unusual circumstances if they leave with your stuff (and don't pose a threat) then you will just let them take the things you work hard for or you'll be guilty of a far more serious crime then they are.

There seems to be considerable confusion here.

The fact that a situation/confrontation starts out with person 1 in the right and as the victim doesn't mean that person 1 automatically retains that status throughout the entire confrontation. If he oversteps the laws governing the use of deadly force then the other party becomes the victim and person 1 becomes a criminal.

I suppose that one can argue (probably unsuccessfully) that's not the way it ought to be, but the courts are unconcerned with such philosophical matters. A murderer is a murderer under the law even if the confrontation initially began when his car was being broken into by the person he murdered.
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Old July 23, 2009, 05:40 AM   #18
Beauhooligan
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I was robbed last night...

Again this was theft, not robbery, not even burglary, as burglary means you enter a premise (structure) with intention to commit a crime. If I rolled down onto a crime scene where say two men had been trying to steal power equipment, and another had them down on the ground at gun point, my first priority would be removing the armed man from the equation. When a cop shows up and you are standing in your yard in your undershorts with a shotgun pointed at other people, THAT might be the most hazardous few moments of your life. We don't know "who is who", and the armed man is going to be in serious danger if he does not comply right freaking now to our orders to drop the weapon and stand down, he just might qualify for a body bag and a toe tag. That has happened far too often, and the pro-gun crowd should have caught onto this much, much sooner. Here is some ABC information for all who do not already know it: YOU CANNOT USE LETHAL FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY IN THE UNITED STATES. You can only use lethal force to prevent the immanent death or severe injury to yourself or others, unless you have been in jail/prison and like the life, and the guys who want to sign on as your proctologist. So, if your car alarm goes off in the driveway in the middle of the night, CALL 911. You can arm yourselves in your house in case the perpetrators begin to threaten you or others with immanent death or severe injury; but if he's stealing your car, or just your car stereo outside your home, call 911 and wait it out. If the perpetrators come in your house the situation becomes 300% more complicated, but generally, if the intruders are not threatening you with immanent death or severe injury, killing them is pretty much the same. So, if you live where the average response time to your 911 call is 20 minutes and don't know what to do? My advice is either move closer to law enforcement, or buy more insurance on the things you leave outside! I lived in Tenant, Ca. for 5 years (look that up on the map, it's at the base of Mount Shasta) and I didn't have to lock anything up, as nobody knew we were there, and the locals didn't steal from one and other. But I did buy replacement insurance on my snowmobile and motorcycles just in case. I never had to call 911, so I don't have a clue on what the response time would be; probably a half hour or more, and on a day when it had been snowing; who knows?. I had a Deputy Sheriff living a half mile away, so I would have called Jack instead of dialing 911.

Theft is not a reason to kill, unless you want spend and lose everything you have ever made trying to keep yourself out of prison. If you try to stop theft with a gun and it escalates into a killing situation, remember who put the situation into killing mode. If you go outside your home with a gun in American cities and the Police arrive, you may be the one who gets to meet the Coroner. You CANNOT be too careful when it comes to lethal force, if you care about your life and how you will spend what is left of it. I hope you live your lives fully, and well, no matter what others try to steal from around your house. None of that stuff is worth dying or going to prison over.

I did not make the rules concerning the use of lethal force, I just enforced them for a while, tried to stay alive while doing that, and testified in court about it quite a bit as we had a lot of killings in my home town while I wore a badge. If in time the laws have changed, and I am wrong, please tell me.
Good Luck!
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Old July 23, 2009, 06:09 AM   #19
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Quote:
Here is some ABC information for all who do not already know it: YOU CANNOT USE LETHAL FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY IN THE UNITED STATES.
Texas Law Section 9.34.

Quote:
Deadly Force to Protect Property

"A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect his property to the degree he reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, theft during the nighttime or criminal mischief during the nighttime, and he reasonably believes that the property cannot be protected by any other means."

"A person is justified in using deadly force against another to prevent the other who is fleeing after committing burglary, robbery, or theft during the nighttime, from escaping with the property and he reasonable believes that the property cannot be recovered by any other means; or, the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the property would expose him or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury. (Nighttime is defined as the period 30 minutes after sunset until 30 minutes before sunrise.)"
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Old July 23, 2009, 07:12 AM   #20
seg44
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if its yours, its yours !

personaly, if you are going to steal from me ? you had better be armed, will call the law, after the fact ! but he will not leve with my property ! if he comes in my house late at nite, will see if he can brake out as fast as he got in. take care, be safe
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Old July 23, 2009, 08:14 AM   #21
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Theft is not a reason to kill,...
That really depends on one's own perspective, morals, and the law. As noted, at least one state in the US allows for the use of lethal force to protect property under the right conditions.

Quote:
I did not make the rules concerning the use of lethal force, I just enforced them for a while, tried to stay alive while doing that, and testified in court about it quite a bit as we had a lot of killings in my home town while I wore a badge.
Then your legal training on all US law was lacking, wasn't it? Fortunately, you were never queried on your understanding of all US whilst on the stand or you would have been discredited. Hopefully, nobody ever was wrongfully convicted by your testimony.
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Old July 23, 2009, 08:23 AM   #22
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There are some inexpensive things you can do to deter theft activity.

Motion sensor lights will light up the place, . . . maybe scaring them off, . . . and you can also screw in a plug in adapter, . . . plug in a noisy bell or siren, . . . when the light comes on, . . . so does the bell or siren.

You can run a weather proof speaker out near the area, . . . a wire into your house to a small amplifier and a microphone, . . . and if you have been awakened, . . . you can tell em you see em and are ready to shoot em (maybe bluff em into running away).

You can also leave a 5 gallon can of gasoline out there (nice pretty new one, all shiney & stuff) that has a quantity of ether or diesel mixed in well. They use it on their vehicle, . . . the damage it does may not be worth comeing back to mess with you.

A gate across your drive, . . . chain the stuff to trees, . . . anyway, . . . make it hard, . . . noisy, . . . whatever to get your stuff. They'll find easier prey.

May God bless,
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Old July 23, 2009, 08:25 AM   #23
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I feel for you, just had my car broken into couple days ago, glad no one was harmed. I've had people tell me I should have done more than lock doors, nothing burns me more than that. At what point does it become the victims fault. Sorry about the rant.
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Old July 23, 2009, 08:48 AM   #24
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So, if your car alarm goes off in the driveway in the middle of the night, CALL 911. You can arm yourselves in your house in case the perpetrators begin to threaten you or others with immanent death or severe injury; but if he's stealing your car, or just your car stereo outside your home, call 911 and wait it out. If the perpetrators come in your house the situation becomes 300% more complicated, but generally, if the intruders are not threatening you with immanent death or severe injury, killing them is pretty much the same.
In Florida, deady force can be used to prevent a forcible felony. Grand theft auto is a felony (as well as a great video game!). I'm not saying I would just walk out at shoot the guy on the spot. I doubt most people are cool enough to just walk off with your stuff when you have a shotgun on them. Most probably option is they will surrender and maybe wait to get picked up by police. Second most likely option is that they run away (without your stuff) and you leave it at that. The third scenario is you are dealing with an armed person who is stupid enough to draw on a drawn gun. In that case, one less bad guy.

I understand there are risks, both legally and physically. I just can't subscribe to the mentality that we should just do nothing and insure everything. Imagine if most gun owners had that mentality and that it was widely known by criminals. Everthing that was not chained down would probably be gone (maybe even things that were chained down too!). I like it better when criminls are scared to steal things because the home owner might walk out and shoot them.
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Old July 23, 2009, 10:24 AM   #25
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I worked myself to death to buy that bike and trimmer. Now I am living in the state of mind that someone is coming backto steal the other things I worked for. If they have the nerve to steal out of my yard that has more lights then the 4th of july then something tells me they would not hesitate to kick my door in and try and grab some guns, they know I have them there a sign in the front yard with my hours.

As for force, it should all be like TX, bet there is less theft there because of that law. I know every cop in the county so I woudl say it will be found some time or another and will probably be trashed. I dont want to harm anyone but cannot let them keep stealing my things. Thanks for the replies guys they have given me some ideas...
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