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Old July 26, 2009, 11:17 AM   #26
IZZY
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Quote:
Izzy, relax. I'm not contesting 'anything' you are saying. If I 'close' again the partially opened chamber and then 'rack' the slide back (pump it) and forth then a complete extraction and reload occurs. I had said this on 2009-07-23, 06:08 PM .
Doc,

That's not what I'm asking. I asked if you totally use the gun as intended, that is to use it with 2 hands from begining to end ( full cycle) does it work? It seems like it does from your wording.

If that's the case, dont YOU worry, and YOU should relax....your SG is fine.



Others ( like Luke) are seem confused because:

Quote:
The shell is not withdrawn from the chamber when the bolt goes backward. Not only is it not ejected, it's not extracted. (Luke)

Yah, and so what... the manual never even mentions the shell, neither extarction nor ejection. All it talks about is the bolt.
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Old July 26, 2009, 11:48 AM   #27
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I'm not confused about anything.

The gun only extracts and ejects the spent hull properly (with that particular ammunition) with the following 3 (instead of the normal 1) motions.

1. The firing pin strikes the primer and the powder pushes the shot out of the barrel and exerts a rearward force on the bolt and the forearm, assisting the shooter in moving the bolt and forearm rearward. The hull remains in the chamber.

2. The shooter moves the forearm and bolt forward and slams the extractor over the hull to grip it for extraction.

3. The shooter moves the forearm and bolt rearward (again), this time the shell is extracted from the chamber and then ejected from the gun. The gun is now ready to accept another round from either the magazine or one that is inserted directly into the chamber.

It may be a problem with the particular ammunition or it may be a problem with the extractor, but it is most certainly NOT normal operation. Of that I can be sure.
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Old July 26, 2009, 12:04 PM   #28
Roamingdoc83
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I believe I use the gun as intended... from everything I've read the 1300 18.5" Defender (out of production now I guess) should partially open the 'breech' upon firing "and" that sliding rearward of the bolt assembly "should" have in its grasp the 'fired' hull/casing... ready to CONTINUE the opening by manual effort of the shooter. Upon opening manually the 'hull' should be ejected and then the shooter manually begins the closing of the breech and the loading of a new round.

As Luke indicates (correctly)... my shotgun, being held firmly with both hands and set against my shoulder ;^) discharges, the slide comes back "without" grabbing or 'beginning' the extraction process of the spent hull/casing and I have to PUSH the slide closed to pick up the hull... seems very inefficient in that the 'slide opens' (as designed) but the shooter has to 'close again' and then REOPEN to grab and extract the hull and cycle the new round. "If" (and I know it was not) this is by design, why have it open part way upon discharge? It serves no purpose if it does not grab the 'hull' and ready it for manually finishing the cycle and ejecting the spent case?

So, we'll see what a few different makes of ammo do "and" I'm still looking for a good up close picture of the 1300's extractor to confirm mine is intact and the way it should be (as mentioned, slight 'angle' away from perpendicular to the head at one [top or upper] end of extractor).

Thanks.
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Old July 26, 2009, 12:20 PM   #29
IZZY
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ok so we have a simple failure to extract.

i WILL try and post a pic of my 1300 guts by the end of the day.
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Old July 26, 2009, 12:35 PM   #30
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Extractors, like springs, are "consumeables". Replace it with new.
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Old July 26, 2009, 12:41 PM   #31
IZZY
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Quote:
there are no rough edges and it is a new gun ( roamingdoc)

New ( still might need replacing tho')
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Old July 26, 2009, 02:14 PM   #32
kirbythegunsmith
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Details

An extractor for the 1300 and clones runs on the end coil of the long and heavy duty extractor spring, the likes of which practically no other gun employs in as much quantity.

Simple issues may be evident upon inspection, such as extractor groove burrs or mis-cut angle or incompleteness, therefore inhibiting the extractor edge from properly hooking the rim edge during the withdrawal/rotation of the bolt head.

Then there is the possibility of the extractor being inhibited by the parts in the bolt area, such as burrs or a distorted spring coil end. The hook end may be slightly duffed, bent, or even have a cracked off section, being of very hard material construction.

Any old lube that may have been left in the chamber, or corrosion that may have inadvertently been allowed to occur, or chamber machining defects present that inhibit shells (some more than others at times) from immediate extraction, all can be present in any combination and work in concert to cause mechanical failure.

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Old July 26, 2009, 02:15 PM   #33
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"...simple failure to extract."

Would seem that way 'excepting' when I 're'-close the slide it grabs that case and brings it back ALL the time... just doesn't take it out upon the 'first' opening (when fired)... it is weird but I will get a video up of how it is behaving and WOULD LOVE to have a photo...

The 'spring' feels perfect... I mean, just nice with good tension. I have to obtain an armorer's manual for this shotgun... don't have one. Just a PDF of the in the box manual.

Thanks...
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Old July 26, 2009, 05:56 PM   #34
IZZY
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It could be a chamber burr, as noted by others ( remington is becoming famous for this) , out of spec ammo ( AL vs. CU base?) or annother reason... operator error .....but if it helps, here is what a mod 1300 defender extractor should look like:









I treat it like a pump, and it works for me. One point this has taught me, is firing a 1300 with one hand is a liability in SD.... Unlike in a Mossy or Rem.

Last edited by IZZY; July 26, 2009 at 06:02 PM.
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Old July 26, 2009, 07:56 PM   #35
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Perfect! That or Those are exactly what mine looks like right down to the slight variation in 'angle/width' from one side to the other of the extractor.

I 'do' shoot it with both hands and my shoulder all the time... never one handed.

So I am going to have to get that video and watch it slow 'mo to see what is happening "or" train with it and see if there is something I'm doing...

The Knoxx does REALLY cut down on the recoil... and I thought it might be the cause of the 'initial' failure to pick up the hull. But perhaps not.

Thanks for the great photos...

Izzy, do you have a 'armorers' manual or would you 'suggest' one to buy?
Thanks.
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Old July 26, 2009, 09:15 PM   #36
IZZY
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unfortunately not. These may help instead of a book and its free.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVROeqRYdoM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMiO2...BCDFB&index=18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b71bI0rH1g8&feature=fvw
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Old July 26, 2009, 10:13 PM   #37
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbd8biIvNL0
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Old July 29, 2009, 07:41 AM   #38
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Great vids... will be checking my action/recoil and trying to determine why it is not grabbing that hull. Thanks.
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Old January 19, 2010, 10:39 PM   #39
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Update (and very sorry for the long delay, diagnosed with illness that is not fun)... "if" I replace the KNOXX recoil reducing 'stock' (aftermarket) with the original stock, the SHOTGUN 'grabs' the empty hull and begins properly the extraction and ejection process in the manner prescribed by the "assisted" opening of the Winchester. Soooooo, dang it all, the Knoxx seems to create something "similar" to a 'limp wrist' failure to extract in a pistol. I would suggest it is "because" of the 'assisted opening' aspect but not sure. Will contact Knoxx/Blackhawk. Will sell the 'Winchester' and get an 870 with the Knoxx.
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Old February 23, 2010, 11:11 AM   #40
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Ooops - mistake

Sadly the addition of the 'factory stock' does NOT solve the ISSUE - it still does not 'extract' the hull in about 65-70% of the time. I didn't run enough rounds to note this when I posted last so thought it was cured.

Last evening I completely broke down, scrubbed and cleaned the shotgun and put the Knoxx back on in hopes that I could still use it (the artificial shoulder I have does NOT like recoil) as it does reduce recoil substantially.

Upon disassembling I noted that the 'bolt' does not break down farther than the rectangular 'carrier' (aside from pulling the Firing pin out) and that I could not actually see the bolt body with the exception of portions thru the carriers openings. I did scrub some 'varnish' off the back of the bolt and cleaned all the lugs and the chamber on the barrel. I oiled the bolt slightly and the guide/slider on the right side of the shotgun (where it interfaces with the bolt carrier).
I cleaned up the trigger mechanism and made sure that there was nothing immediately obvious that would foul the action.

So I plan to shoot it and 'not' put my left hand on the slide at all. IF THE HULL Is picked up as the "speed pump" assist moves the slide PARTIALLY backwards I will know that "I" am the issue, something in my left hand grip on the slide is obstructing the motion. If it does NOT bring back the hull without my interference than I must assume something is internally wrong with the bolt (although there is no outward signs and ALL the parts look exactly like the photos in this thread!) and send it to a gunsmith for deeper examination.

Don't want to spend any money as suddenly 'unemployed' (what is with this economy!?)... hoping to figure it out without gunsmith.

DOES ANYONE know how to get the actual BOLT out of the carrier without dynamite?

Thanks
Doc
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Old February 23, 2010, 08:28 PM   #41
Lee Lapin
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Doc,

After you remove the barrel and pull the trigger plate assembly out, turn the action bottom up and look down inside. You'll see the bottom of the bolt and action bar assembly.

The action bar assembly is held to the bolt by the action bridge screw that you see on the right of center of the bolt, looking from the butt to the muzzle.

Remove the action bridge screw, turn the receiver back right side up and slide the forearm forward. The bolt and action bar assembly will slide out the front of the receiver with the bolt going out through the space where the barrel fits.

BE CAREFUL with the bolt assembly riding on the action bars- the plate the bolt is sitting on was freed up when you took out that screw. That plate, aka the slide bridge, has an extension that goes up around the back of the bolt to retain the spring loaded firing pin. Let the slide bridge get away from you and you will NASA the firing pin off somewhere inaccessible. Not fun...

It's pretty intuitive to get the firing pin out of the bolt. Then pull the bolt head forward until you can see the bolt cam pin at about the midpoint in its track. Line the cam pin up with the access hole in the top of the bolt slide and drift it out with a pin punch.

Note that the bolt cam pin retains the extractor spring and washer as well as the bolt head in the bolt slide. Note carefully the orientation of the bolt head and the cam pin when you remove them, because it's critical to get them in the correct orientation when you reinstall them- putting the bolt head back in upside down won't help things. Ditto putting the cam pin in backwards.

With the cam pin removed the extractor spring and washer can be removed from the back of the bolt slide. With the spring pressure off the extractor it can be removed easily from the bolt head.

You'll need a tool like a larger roll pin punch to reinstall the extractor spring and washer. The 'nipple' on the roll pin punch will help hold the washer and spring and center them up. It's a fairly hefty spring and can be a three handed job getting everything back in if it doesn't want to cooperate.

You might want to let a gunsmith do this if you don't have the tools and confidence to tackle it yourself.

See http://www.urban-armory.com/diagrams/win1200.htm for an exploded drawing.

hth,

lpl
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Old February 24, 2010, 06:22 PM   #42
Roamingdoc83
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Many thanks Lee.
I will take another look but didn't see much on the underside of the 1300's bolt carrier that appeared to allow access...
I know I didn't have to unscrew anything to allow the bolt / bar assembly to come forward. I'll check again.
Many thanks.
Doc
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Old March 9, 2010, 10:45 AM   #43
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FINAL UPDATE - good data

First, I'm just adding to this thread as it was the original where I brought up the issue - didn't want to start one that was not associated.

Re-reading you will see that my Win. Def. 1300 18 1/2 shotgun seemed to be malfunctioning "in that it would not extract the empty hull" regularly and in normal use. The ONE MODIFICATION to the shotgun was the removal of the Winchester stock, replacing it with a Knoxx Recoil Reducing Adjustable stock -
[http://tinyurl.com/d2wjnb].

I had NOT fired many rounds thru the shotgun in its stock form! I have not used a shotgun since the '70s (yes, that is right, I'm old) and this was the first shotgun I 'owned' (vs being provided with). A shoulder injury was the 'reason' for the recoil reducer.

These are facts as I perceive them:
1. The Knoxx really reduces recoil - at least 50% and perhaps much higher.
2. The 1300 has an 'inertia-assisted pump' action called, I believe, Speed pump.
3. The 1300 is an aluminum framed shotgun, light, easy to hold.

I noted almost immediately that I was not getting reliable 'extraction' of the empty hull (previous entries in this thread describe this issue so I won't repeat it) and I was trying to determine the exact cause 'and' find a fix that allowed the retention of the recoil reduction.

The 1300 Defender that I have "does" work perfectly... IF I PUT THE butt of the shotgun (with the KNOXX installed, etc) against a stiff object (I used a cemented roof brace at the range, 4x4) - placing the butt against the 4x4, round present, pull the trigger - the Speed Pump (or whatever) brings the slide back WITHOUT assistance "AND" [in this case] EJECTS the empty hull!!
Yes, automatically, without ME TOUCHING the slide, period. Repeatable! I performed this test five times with different rounds (00B, #6, #4, etc) - amazing recoil assistance.

I found that "if" I place my hand upon the slide and exert "much" hold upon it (at least in the Knoxx present configuration) "I" seem to interfere with the inertia based 'assisted pump action' and DO NOT GET A CLEAN EXTRACTION and, consequently, a failure to eject and load (new round cannot enter chamber with the old hull present!;^). My limited experience with shotguns seems to recall that "firmly holding" the slide was an approved method of control?

If I gently or lightly hold the slide, fire the shotgun normally otherwise, the slide DOES come back bringing the empty hull... it ejects it! Automatically or just about automatically - I then have to bring BACK the slide another 3/4 inch or 1 inch BEFORE slamming it forward with a new round. I can, in that manner, fire repeated rounds without failure. But the TOUCH is almost a 'finesse' and we all know that there is NOTHING finesse about shotguns.

I have determined that the extractor works.
I have determined that the ejection of hull works.

I am trying to determine the best training method to 'develop' the touch required to reliable work the pump action 'along' with the assisted action and do so with all types of shot/rounds.

IF YOU have or are contemplating having a Def 1300 with the Knoxx recoil reducer, you may want to consider this issue. If you currently own a 1300 with a Knoxx recoil reducer on it, then please add your experiences and solutions (if needed). Many thanks.

Doc
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