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Old July 21, 2009, 06:02 PM   #1
Roamingdoc83
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Def 1300 'out of battery' issue?

I hope I'm not visiting a beaten subject... but search didn't answer my ?

Winchester Defender 1300 - perhaps the 870 beats it or maybe a Moss but I bought it new for $159 and have made one mod > Knoxx recoil reducing stock.
I mentioned the recoil reducer as I wonder if a shotgun can be limp wristed and could that cause the below issue?

I note when the shotgun fires it 'automatically' opens the breech or jumps into an 'out of battery' condition. Research found this: "The 1300 uses a rotating bolt lockup, similarish to the AR-15 system. The recoil automatically unlocks the bolt, and if you fire the gun one handed, it will eject the shell on its own."

I don't know 'if' it will eject the shell but what SEEMS to be happening is the shell is not being extracted. I do a lot of smithing on my pistols and know what an extractor on them looks like but have no experience on a shotgun.

"If" the shell is not coming back with this rotating and automated unlocking of the bolt, ejecting it... well, what does that mean mechanically and what do I need to look for? Thanks very much.
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Old July 21, 2009, 09:06 PM   #2
TxGun
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The 1300 definitely has an extractor if that is what you're asking (part #74 on the Brownell's schematic). Sound like it needs to be checked for proper function. The 1300 (aka "Speed Pump") is generally thought of as a solid and reliable shotgun and the Defender should be up to any SD/HD task. The extractor is the typical "hook" on the left side of the bolt.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/sid=3...Model_120_1300

http://www.schiessen-erzgebirge.de/B...r1300_0001.jpg

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Old July 22, 2009, 05:51 AM   #3
Roamingdoc83
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Not really. I am not asking if it 'has' an extractor. I am asking 'why' the hull/casing is not being extracted in the manner I think it should "and" what does the extractor look like exactly and up close.

I've seen those two schematics but in looking at my extractor there is a slight decreasing angle on it and, while there are no rough edges and it is a new gun, I want to be sure that is designed and not damage.

Thanks very much.
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Old July 22, 2009, 09:02 AM   #4
Slopemeno
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Sounds like your extractor is worn, or gummed up. In either case I'd probably take the bolt apart and clean it, and take a close look at the extractor hook.

The extractor is the hook shaped part that goes in the right side of the rotating bolt "head".
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Old July 22, 2009, 05:28 PM   #5
Roamingdoc83
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Right. The extractor 'is' on the right side. The 'edge' or the 'hooked' portion (on my 1300) seems to have a slightly "wider" portion on the down or lower side and it tapers to about 2/3's width (the hook thickness) on the upper side. On many of my pistols the 'extractor' is the same width across, the edge has no difference in size from either side.

But the more I research this the more I am wondering about "why" the casing or hull "isn't" being "snatched" by the extractor. The shotgun is new, clean and has only about 50 rounds through it over the past two years.

Well, weird. The chamber does 'slip itself open' after firing as it is designed to do, just doesn't grab the fired hull and flip it out... jamming it forward (closing it) will EASILY and PERFECTLY engage the hull and bring it back for a proper reload of the next shell.

Thanks.
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Old July 22, 2009, 05:36 PM   #6
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i have the exact same shotgun setup as you described and have been shooting it for some time...its called a speed pump for a reason, the action is smooth and easy, once fired i can hold it upright and the pump almost falls into open action on its own...

the knoxx will allow the barrel and pump assy to move backwards around two inches when fired, your forward hand will follow the pump backwards(it has no choice), but when the pump/barrel returns your forward hand will stay where its at, almost reloading automatically...

practice with this setup and you will get the hang of it, when i fire it all i have to do is move the pump forward bit to lock in the next shot, you can get near autoloader speeds with practice, fun fun fun

good luck

cheers
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Old July 22, 2009, 08:21 PM   #7
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I'm a little confused.

How well does it function when you hold onto the slide and cycle it like an ordinary pump shotgun?

Is your complaint only that it doesn't automatically eject if fired one handed?

If it cycles well manually, and doesn't eject if fired one handed, I don't think there is a problem. If the automatic ejection is dependent on recoil, it's possible that the Knoxx stock will soak up enough recoil to prevent it. It's also possible that the shotgun isn't broken in yet.
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Old July 23, 2009, 08:08 PM   #8
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jammin1237 !
Yup, that is exactly what it is doing "but" doesn't bring back the hull/casing on every such 'opening'... SHOULD it? Does yours?

It opens just as you describe but the hull is not grasped or extracted (generally) and I have to push the slide closed to 'pick up' the casing "then" slam it back to bring it out and load a new round... I have to practice with this and see if it works upon review. Maybe take a slow mo movie of it...

Thanks
Doc
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Old July 23, 2009, 08:10 PM   #9
Roamingdoc83
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kozak6
Thanks...
I've just above described the problem... in that it "doesn't" seem to bring the hull/casing out when it slides partially open as 'jammin' mentions.

The extractor looks okay, my issue with shape is to determine if a portion of it is somehow broken off as it is NOT flat across the 'edge' or grabbing edge.

Thanks.
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Old July 24, 2009, 01:31 AM   #10
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You understand it is always difficult to diagnose problems over the net. But, I guess to finally try to answer your question...yes, the extractor on the 1300 should grab the hull, pull it back and, as the base of the hull hits the ejector, it is thrown from the receiver...most of this you know, I'm sure. So...it does sound like an extractor problem. Broken hook, broken spring...something. But it "could" also be an ejector problem. Unless someone else here has other/better advice, I say take it to a good gunsmith and have him take a look at it. It should be a relatively easy fix.

Last edited by TxGun; July 24, 2009 at 01:40 AM.
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Old July 24, 2009, 03:59 AM   #11
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Oh, it's so it's failing to extract.

Have you tried different ammo? Some of the cheaper ammo has a steel head, which is notorious for causing extraction issues.

Have you cleaned the shotgun yet? It's possible that preservative oil applied at the factory might have dried out a bit in the chamber over the years, and is causing the issue. Give the chamber a good cleaning and see if it helps.

As an above poster mentioned, it could be an extractor problem. Another possibility is a rough chamber.
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Old July 24, 2009, 03:07 PM   #12
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Roaming, i hope you covered the basics first, clean shotgun and action and all the rest of the basics...next the speed pump came in 20 and 12 gauge i hope your using the right shells for the gun(just checking) 2 3/4 to 3 " shells in the right gauge... next load the shotgun and cycle the rounds with out firing and see if you can cycle all rounds through the action(please do this safely!)...if the rounds exit properly during non-fire cycling most likely you are trying to force the pump forward during the shot...if they dont cycle properly, you would want to get this checked out by you trusted local gunsmith...

let us know what you find, knowledge is the thirst that cant be quenched!

cheers
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Old July 25, 2009, 12:02 PM   #13
Roamingdoc83
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Greatly appreciate all the good ideas and response...

I have cleaned it... slightly oiled or lubricated (very slightly) with a good product.

I 'will' run some different rounds thru it to test the possibility of it being 'selective'... I have been using 2 3/4 00 Magnum rounds (that's why the Knoxx recoil reducer ;^) but "they are" a quantity buy through a city department. I wonder if they are steel head(ed). I've some Winchester #6 that is new and so I'll see.

But "yes", it doesn't GRAB the hull/casing and BRING it back 'when' it 'fast opens' as described (and 'as' it should, fast opening, breech comes out of battery, should slide out the hull with it)... I "JUST" wish I could see what a brand new and perfect 'extractor' looks like because then i could tell if this one is slightly off on the edge (which slopes a bit, becomes a bit narrrower)

Many thanks... anyone who has a close up photo of the extractor.
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Old July 25, 2009, 10:47 PM   #14
IZZY
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WAIT!

You are thinking the Win 300 is broken because of this:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=5306807


Quote:
I note when the shotgun fires it 'automatically' opens the breech or jumps into an 'out of battery' condition. Research found this: "The 1300 uses a rotating bolt lockup, similarish to the AR-15 system. The recoil automatically unlocks the bolt, and if you fire the gun one handed, it will eject the shell on its own."
Roamingdoc qouting Genesco1911 of -the "high" road

"similarish"???? NOW really! that is not a technical term!

You bought a PUMP action, not an autoloader. NOTHING is wrong with your gun. Dont beleive all the kaka you read on the net.

I love my 1300 , enjoy yours.
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Old July 25, 2009, 10:50 PM   #15
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The problem, as I read it, is that when the bolt retracts doesn't take the shell with it. We all know it's a pump.
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Old July 25, 2009, 11:55 PM   #16
IZZY
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Luke,

I have one. so his 1300 wont auto eject????

SO WHAT???

I've never tried it with mine. We need more 1300 owners who have tried it to tell us if this is "unusual". Some kook off the net on a break away from TFL ( High holy "high road" vs. Malon Labe types) is NOT ENOUGH.

In short I'll bet he's worring about NOTHING!!!
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Old July 26, 2009, 01:02 AM   #17
colostomyclown
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it's a fast action, but not that fast. Your gun's fine.


I urge all 1300 owners to buy a lot of rounds to get used to the way the action feels, it's a lot different than 870's and 500's. And familiarity is the name of the game when you intend to use a particular weapon to potentially save your life at some point.
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Old July 26, 2009, 01:48 AM   #18
TxGun
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Like LukeA, the way I read the problem was that the gun was leaving the fired shell in the chamber. It would not extract.

Last edited by TxGun; July 26, 2009 at 01:53 AM.
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Old July 26, 2009, 02:30 AM   #19
Notenoughguns
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Try shooting it with two hands, My 1300 runs like a champ after many, many shells.
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Old July 26, 2009, 06:53 AM   #20
b.thomas
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I don't know where the author of the piece that says a 1300 will auto eject a round on it's own but that's pure BS. I've got a youth model 20 gauge 1200 and my brother has a 12 gauge defender and neither will "auto eject" and both are in good shape, with nice smooth actions.
The only way to get a 1200/1300 to properly eject a shell is give the forearm a good hard pull to the rear. the action of the forearm/bolt assembly moving easly to the rear is just a nice smooth action and has very little with any "speed pump" BS. Any pump well broken in action will do the same, my old Wingmaster sure does!
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Old July 26, 2009, 08:54 AM   #21
LukeA
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Unless there's a problem with the extractor.
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Old July 26, 2009, 09:39 AM   #22
Roamingdoc83
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Take it easy... it is not an 'auto' nor is it supposed to (according to Win) "auto eject". What the preponderance of commentary "and" the Win. manual indicates is that the 'bolt' opens upon discharge and is "supposed" to slide back in a manner assisting the opener (the shooter) and "bring back the hull/casing"... the shooter(!) continues the action and ejects the spent hull, moves the slide quickly forward inserting/chambering a new shell.

My issue is simply that when the bolt comes back out of battery it does not bring the hull/casing back with it and I have to quickly push it forward WHEN IT THEN grabs the spent hull/casing and will bring it back upon a 'pump' of the slide.

That seems, from all the research I've done in various forums and sites, to be a bit off from the expected function.

My examination of the mechanism(s) showed a decreasing angle 'extractor' and I am still trying to determine if this part (while it looks cleanly machined) is SUPPOSED to look like that (decreasing angle versus completely perpendicular to the hull/casing head)...

I am going to run several different makes of ammo thru it and determine first if this is some kind of 'ammo' related issue. Then I will also video it and show the video here (if that is possible so everyone can observe this little apparent glitch - which may not be at all ;^)... appreciate the constructive responses. Thanks very much.
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Old July 26, 2009, 10:29 AM   #23
IZZY
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Quote:
the Win. manual indicates is that the 'bolt' opens upon discharge and is "supposed" to slide back in a manner assisting the opener (the shooter) and "bring back the hull/casing"... the shooter(!)

Page 3 of my manual DOES NOT say what you think.
------(Quote)

"A 1300 is so fast, we like to think of it as the "Speed Pump."
(next Par)

Here's why: a fraction of a second after you pull the trigger and fire a 1300, the lugs of the ultra-strong rotary bolt begins disengaging from the barrel extension. Recoil forces in the gun then assist the slide rearward. you can feel the slight rearward force on your forearm as you shoot, which makes it much easier to begin your pumping action. And you'll find you will complete the pumping action forward quickly and without consious effort. In a brief instant you've cycled a shell and are ready for a second shot."



-------- (END Quote, emphisis mine)

NEVER does it say the SHELL is EJECTED on its own w/o the aid of your FOREARM.

IOW your gun is ENGINEERED to need some resistance from your forearm....that is likely why your ejector skips off the shell Rim...it's going TOO FAST...

DOES your gun work when you PUMP it???.. You have not clearly answered that!

I'll bet it does. Because it was BUILT to work in TANDEM with two hands/arms.

You are trying to outsmart the engineeer, and listening to "clap trap" from the net.
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Old July 26, 2009, 10:45 AM   #24
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The shell is not withdrawn from the chamber when the bolt goes backward. Not only is it not ejected, it's not extracted.
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Old July 26, 2009, 10:57 AM   #25
Roamingdoc83
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Izzy, relax. I'm not contesting 'anything' you are saying. If I 'close' again the partially opened chamber and then 'rack' the slide back (pump it) and forth then a complete extraction and reload occurs. I had said this on 2009-07-23, 06:08 PM .

Luke, right... when "my" bolt comes back it comes back without grabbing anything. I "thought" I understood that, as it was recoil aided in opening, it should grab the hull/casing and begin to extract it from the chamber... the shooter then "completed" the opening and ejecting and closing (with new round).

So, if the 'recoil aided' chamber opening IS NOT (and I don't believe you said that) supposed to grab the 'hull' and hold it for ejection, why have it open in the first place (recoil aided only, no auto ejection)? I mean, Izzy sounds like the shooter must 'close' (again) the slide to pick up the hull but I doubt that is what he means...

I'm taking the shotgun to the range and will shoot it with some Winchester #6 and see if it grabs the 'hull' as it auto-rotates open the slide part way.

Thanks.
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