Why did my thread get deleted?

kmullins · July 10, 2009, 04:05 PM

I posted a thread selling reloaded cartridges for component use only and my thread was deleted saying that I must possess an FFL06 to do so? This is bogus. Directly from the ATF website - if the person "engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit", then they must be a licensed manufacturer, according to 18 U.S.C. 922(a) (i) and 923(a), 27 CFR 478.41, as quoted from the ATF's website http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#h4

I am neither selling this as a livelihood or for profit. This is not being conducted as business venture nor am I making profit off of this so a FFL is not required.

So why was my thread deleted and why am I catching flak from moderators on this forum? I am doing nothing illegal.

**Brian Pfleuger** · July 10, 2009, 04:54 PM

(H4) Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer?

Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit. No, if the person reloads only for personal use.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a) (i) and 923(a), 27 CFR 478.41]

I believe there is an assumption of "livelihood or profit" if you are selling them, hence the "No, if the reloads are for personal use." clause.

**Al Norris** · July 10, 2009, 05:23 PM

That's it, exactly.

If you were selling the pulled bullets and the brass (with or without the primer), then you would be selling components.

But to sell the fully loaded ammo, then the (rebutable) presumption is that you are in business.

kmullins · July 10, 2009, 05:24 PM

But these reloads are for personal use and were not manufactured to be sold. And I am selling them at loss, neither profit nor livelihood by any means.

How can it be considered a business if you are selling at a loss?

Microgunner · July 10, 2009, 06:12 PM

Quote:

But these reloads are for personal use and were not manufactured to be sold. And I am selling them at loss, neither profit nor livelihood by any means.

How can it be considered a business if you are selling at a loss?

I'd imagine because some unscrupulous persons might feign "personal use" and "not at a profit" as a smokescreen to conduct business without a license. Without sufficient staffing to police every example the BATFE drew a line in the sand. Unfortunately, honest folks such as yourself are sometimes positioned on the wrong side of this line.

kmullins · July 10, 2009, 06:48 PM

Well I find it unfortunate that people interpret the law that way on this particular forum. That's no problem, I can sell on hundreds of other forums that allow honest people to do perfectly legal things without hassling them.

Microgunner · July 10, 2009, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Well I find it unfortunate that people interpret the law that way on this particular forum. That's no problem, I can sell on hundreds of other forums that allow honest people to do perfectly legal things without hassling them.

Whatever blows your skirt up.

**Al Norris** · July 10, 2009, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Well I find it unfortunate that people interpret the law that way on this particular forum.

kmullins, it is not us (the Staff) that are being nitpickey. It is the ATF, who, as you might or might not know, has no sense of humor whatsoever.

It is the ATF whom you have to convince. We are simply trying to help out honest people by not letting them do something that may send them to jail.

If looking out for the members here, makes us jerks, in your eyes, then so be it. We're jerks. I'll wear that label, proudly.

**Brian Pfleuger** · July 10, 2009, 10:23 PM

****Never Mind******

July 10, 2009, 04:05 PM	#1
kmullins Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2008 Posts: 250	Why did my thread get deleted? I posted a thread selling reloaded cartridges for component use only and my thread was deleted saying that I must possess an FFL06 to do so? This is bogus. Directly from the ATF website - if the person "engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit", then they must be a licensed manufacturer, according to 18 U.S.C. 922(a) (i) and 923(a), 27 CFR 478.41, as quoted from the ATF's website http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#h4 I am neither selling this as a livelihood or for profit. This is not being conducted as business venture nor am I making profit off of this so a FFL is not required. So why was my thread deleted and why am I catching flak from moderators on this forum? I am doing nothing illegal. __________________ My feedback here.

July 10, 2009, 04:54 PM	#2
Brian Pfleuger Staff Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Central, Southern NY, USA Posts: 14,666	You missed the last sentence of that quote: (H4) Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer? Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit. No, if the person reloads only for personal use. [18 U.S.C. 922(a) (i) and 923(a), 27 CFR 478.41] I believe there is an assumption of "livelihood or profit" if you are selling them, hence the "No, if the reloads are for personal use." clause. __________________ Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza. --- You do not HAVE a soul. You ARE a soul. You HAVE a body. ----- He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose. -Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.

July 10, 2009, 05:23 PM	#3
Al Norris Staff Join Date: June 29, 2000 Location: Rupert, Idaho Posts: 8,774	That's it, exactly. If you were selling the pulled bullets and the brass (with or without the primer), then you would be selling components. But to sell the fully loaded ammo, then the (rebutable) presumption is that you are in business. __________________ Listings of the Current 2A Cases: http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=416973

July 10, 2009, 05:24 PM	#4
kmullins Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2008 Posts: 250	But these reloads are for personal use and were not manufactured to be sold. And I am selling them at loss, neither profit nor livelihood by any means. How can it be considered a business if you are selling at a loss? __________________ My feedback here.

July 10, 2009, 06:48 PM	#6
kmullins Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2008 Posts: 250	Well I find it unfortunate that people interpret the law that way on this particular forum. That's no problem, I can sell on hundreds of other forums that allow honest people to do perfectly legal things without hassling them. __________________ My feedback here.

July 10, 2009, 10:23 PM	#9
Brian Pfleuger Staff Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Central, Southern NY, USA Posts: 14,666	**Never Mind**** __________________ Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza. --- You do not HAVE a soul. You ARE a soul. You HAVE a body. ----- He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose. -Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.