The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Black Powder and Cowboy Action Shooting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 17, 2009, 02:10 PM   #1
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 4,562
Help with identification please

How about some help from the smart guys:

I just bought a Colt 1862 pocket in .36. It bears all of the features of a 2nd generation with matching serial numbers at 58324. (Barrel, frame, trigger guard, backstrap and cylinder.) Address is on the top of the barrel where it is supposed to be. .36 cal on the left side of the trigger guard. "Colt Patent" on the left side of the case hardened frame and on the cylinder. Roll engraved stagecoach scene on the rebated five shot cylinder. The back strap does not have the signature so I don't think it is a third generation. The bluing is of a quality that is slightly inferior (although it is still beautiful) to that of a Signature Series 1861 I just bought. This, I am given to understand, is another mark of the 2nd gens.

The serial number fits within the final runs probably from 1984 according to the "History of Colt Blackpowder Reproductions." Every feature of the pistol matches the description found in that publication accept that it does not have a squareback trigger guard.

I doubt the trigger guard has been replaced for three reasons:

1. The serial numbers match.
2. The characteristics of the number stamp used to imprint the serial number match.
3. The screws on the pistol are in such condition that they appear to be unmolested.

Did some of these pistol sneak through with a standard trigger guard?
__________________
Doc

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old July 17, 2009, 02:13 PM   #2
AdmiralB
Member
 
Join Date: March 27, 2009
Posts: 88
I'm certainly no Colt expert, but...did any 1862s have a squareback TG? I thought those were gone by the mid 1850s.
AdmiralB is offline  
Old July 17, 2009, 02:21 PM   #3
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 4,562
Sorry for my poor explanation

AdmiralB,

I am speaking of a Colt Second Generation Repro produced in Hartford in the early 1980s.

Tnx,
__________________
Doc

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old July 17, 2009, 02:36 PM   #4
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 4,562
Maybe I just answered my own question

I just found an exact example of my pistol on Gunbroker under auction number 132675351 when ended without a bid. Opening price was too high at $700.00. I gave $75.00 plus $11.00 shipping.

Guess what! It has a standard trigger guard. This is my pistol but with a much earlier Serial Number.

Tnx,
__________________
Doc

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old July 17, 2009, 03:04 PM   #5
AdmiralB
Member
 
Join Date: March 27, 2009
Posts: 88
I can't find ANY reference to squareback TGs on 1862 pockets.

Here's a 2nd-Gen from another thread here:

AdmiralB is offline  
Old July 17, 2009, 03:27 PM   #6
Fingers McGee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 19, 2008
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,849
2nd Gen 1862 Pocket models did not have square back triggerguards. SN 58324 was made in 1981. The bluing of the F series 2nd Gens was the Colt blue black and did not have as high a polish as the Sig series guns that came in 1996.

If you only paid $86.00 total for it, you got one of the steals of the century.

Fm
__________________
Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee - AKA Man of Many Colts - Alter ego of Diabolical Ken; SASS Regulator 28564-L-TG; Rangemaster and stage writer extraordinaire; Frontiersman, Pistoleer, NRA Endowment Life, NMLRA, SAF, CCRKBA, STORM 327, SV115; Charter member, Central Ozarks Western Shooters
Cynic: A blackguard whose faulty vision see things as they are, not as they should be. Ambrose Bierce
Fingers McGee is offline  
Old July 17, 2009, 10:15 PM   #7
mykeal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 8, 2006
Location: Northern Michigan
Posts: 2,757
Actually, it's a defective gun and shouldn't be in public hands. You clearly paid more than the gun is worth; send it to me and I'll send you $25 just because I like you and feel sorry for you having been taken so badly.




I hope you sleep well at night. Thief.



Jealous? Not me. Nope. Not a bit.



When can I expect the gun to arrive?
mykeal is offline  
Old July 18, 2009, 03:12 AM   #8
Smokin_Gun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2005
Location: Mojave Desert, CA
Posts: 1,195
Wouldn't a Baby Dragoon Squareback Trigger guard fit the Pocket Colts?
__________________
"I Smoke Black Powder" "Favor an 1858 Remington"
SGT. Smokin' Gun, Mosby's Rangers 43rd Virginia Cavalry C.S.A.
SASS# 19634, ...
Admin:http://blackpowdersmoke.com/oldcoots/index.php
Smokin_Gun is offline  
Old July 18, 2009, 05:32 AM   #9
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 4,562
Sure

Mykeal,

I'll overnight it at noon today. Tomorrow morning go stand by your mailbox and wait for it. It'll be there.

I bought this pistol from a pawn shop in North Charleston SC through the mail. He had this one and the Signature Series 1861. I gave 100.00 for that pistol.

The situation is that I had bought a pistol from the guy on Gunbroker. He had a 1860 Army from Armi San Paolo for a buy-it-now price of 125.00. It is a steel model unblued. I jumped on it. When I called him to arrange payment and shipment he said he had about a dozen others that he got in a collection. I asked him to describe the pistols including markings. I was hoping to find which Italian Jobber had built the pistols. When he told me he had one on which the only marking he could find was "address c-o-l-s-a-m-c-o-l-t-...." I immediately asked him what he had to have for the pistol.

He told me he could not take less than 100.00. Trying to maintain my composure, I told him to include that pistol with the Armi San Paolo. I paypaled the money and hung up the phone. About a day later I realized that there were some pistols that he did not describe because I was too anxious to get off the phone (So I could go stand by the mailbox). So I came in from the mailbox and called him again and asked him to look through his pistols for any additional stuff with the c-o-l-s-a-m.... engraving on the barrel.
That is when he described the 1862. He said he would take $75.00 since he assumed the pistol was worth less than the 1861 because it was smaller. So another paypal payment and back out to the mailbox.

I don't have boxes for the pistols and the finish can not be described as anything better than 95%. I am still happy with the deal, even the price on the ASP. Funny thing about all three of these pistols. They have never been fired but all have been handled enough that their finish is less than perfect. I guess there are plenty of folks who have pistols they don't fire. In fact I probobly won't shoot these. But three out of three is an indication that none of the pistols in the group have been shot. Maybe they were displays in a store or something.
__________________
Doc

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson

Last edited by Doc Hoy; July 18, 2009 at 05:41 AM.
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old July 18, 2009, 05:47 AM   #10
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 4,562
And that was my fear

To Smokin Gun,

I have not examined both models together but I would assume you are correct. This was my fear when I checked the reference and found the squareback trigger guard feature in the desciption.

I thought someone had taken good parts from two pistols to make one sellable. But the serial numbers matched.

I am going to go back and double check the reference to make sure I did not read it.

AdmiralB has provided yet another photo of an 1862 with a standard trigger guard and so I am included in that group of folks who has never seen a photo of an 1862 with a square trigger guard.

Tnx,
__________________
Doc

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old July 18, 2009, 07:54 AM   #11
madcratebuilder
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 2, 2007
Location: Northern Orygun
Posts: 4,868
Quote:
Wouldn't a Baby Dragoon Squareback Trigger guard fit the Pocket Colts?
Yes, they are both "pocket frame" revolvers. The Baby Dragoon, the 1849 (baby with loading lever) Pocket Navy and Pocket Police all are the same frame size.

The 1862 Police Pocket normally has a round trigger guard. There are abnormalities out there. SG owns a 3rd gen? 1st Model Dragoon with a round trigger guard. I own a 3rd gen Trapper with a dragoon guard.

Doc, you got the deal of the CENTURY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Even at 90% shooter grade, those are really great prices. The 62 Police is a very fun shooter, loaded at 20grs it's about the same as a .38 spl, a big step up from the Baby Dragoon .31 that was about a .22 short in equivalent energy.
madcratebuilder is offline  
Old July 18, 2009, 09:51 AM   #12
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 4,562
Photos

Here are some photos of the 1861.

The scratches in the barrel are just visible in the photos. Grips are aslo a little marked up.

Tnx,
Attached Images
File Type: jpg P7180374.jpg (249.2 KB, 26 views)
File Type: jpg P7180375.jpg (248.1 KB, 18 views)
__________________
Doc

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson

Last edited by Doc Hoy; July 18, 2009 at 09:57 AM.
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old July 18, 2009, 09:54 AM   #13
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 4,562
More photos

Here is the 1862 plus the pair.

On the photo os the left side of the pistol, you can see a scuff mark just at the muzzle. There is also a bit of a ring on the cylinder. This pistol is in better condition than the other.

I noticed that both of these pistols have no bluing whatever on the surface of the muzzle at the business end. The barrels have not been sawed and do not appear to have been filed. I wonder if it was a practice not to blue the muzzle surface.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg P7180377.jpg (258.8 KB, 21 views)
File Type: jpg P7180378.jpg (255.9 KB, 19 views)
File Type: jpg P7180379.jpg (259.9 KB, 18 views)
__________________
Doc

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson

Last edited by Doc Hoy; July 18, 2009 at 10:01 AM.
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old July 18, 2009, 10:34 AM   #14
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 4,562
I may never know

MCB,

I believe these pistols have not been fired. I will give you the reason but I stand by to be contradicted.

As I said, one of the three pistols I bought from this group is a bare 1860 Army from Armi San Paolo. I field stripped this pistol and there is absolutely no sign that powder has ever been anywhere near this pistol. There may be those among you who will declare that with careful cleaning, you can make a fired pistol to look clean as the day it was made. This has not been my experience. Even my Ruger retains some tell tale signs of having been shot, While I have never been guided face to face by someone whose shooting abilities I respect I think I am pretty good a cleaning my tools.

In this ASP I see no such discoloration whatsoever. The Colts are in a condition which is identical to the ASP and were obtained from the same source. Since they are blued, it is a little more difficut for me to affirm that there is no evidence of having been fired. I know that were I to sell the pistols, they would have to be described as having been fired since I don't actually know. But they don't look like they have.

At any rate, I probably won't shoot these pistols because they are just too nice. I don't shoot my Centaure any more after Wayne went over it.

Tnx,
__________________
Doc

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson

Last edited by Doc Hoy; July 18, 2009 at 10:41 AM.
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old July 18, 2009, 02:40 PM   #15
Fingers McGee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 19, 2008
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,849
Doc, you definitely got the deal of the century on these three pistols.

Muzzles on 2nd Gens were not blued (at least none of my 30+ are). They all look like they have been freshly cut off.

You're probably right about them having never been fired. None of my 2nd Gens were ever fired til I got them. A few had lots of handling marks; but had never seen powder cap or ball.

If you do decide to shoot them, the '61 is a sweet shooting point shooter. I use a pair of them for SASS main match guns.

The BS/TG on the '62 pocket models is the same size as the '48 Baby Dragoon and will interchange.

Since the grips on the '61 are dinged, if you strip the shiny finish off & oil them, they really turn out good.
__________________
Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee - AKA Man of Many Colts - Alter ego of Diabolical Ken; SASS Regulator 28564-L-TG; Rangemaster and stage writer extraordinaire; Frontiersman, Pistoleer, NRA Endowment Life, NMLRA, SAF, CCRKBA, STORM 327, SV115; Charter member, Central Ozarks Western Shooters
Cynic: A blackguard whose faulty vision see things as they are, not as they should be. Ambrose Bierce
Fingers McGee is offline  
Old July 18, 2009, 05:28 PM   #16
madcratebuilder
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 2, 2007
Location: Northern Orygun
Posts: 4,868
Both those look great. I have bought a few 2nd gens that are unfired but have handling wear. Go with McGee's suggestion and strip the grips on the 61 then Tung oil them. They well look great.
madcratebuilder is offline  
Old July 18, 2009, 07:28 PM   #17
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 4,562
An interesting development

It is interesting to learn of the high number of new Colts that have not been fired. I am coming to understand that my approach is not as cockeyed as I was thinking.

I am not in the least bit concerned that shooting the pistols will reduce their value. I have no intention of selling them so I don't really care about the value (Except that it is nice to have bought valuable pistols for a low price). I just think they are too nice to shoot.

Maybe if I would take the plunge and shoot them, I would find that they are such better shooters than the others I have that I would stop shooting those and go out and buy only Colts.
__________________
Doc

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government. Thomas Jefferson
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old July 18, 2009, 09:35 PM   #18
Smokin_Gun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 4, 2005
Location: Mojave Desert, CA
Posts: 1,195
You done mighty fine there Doc, mighty fine! Congrads...
__________________
"I Smoke Black Powder" "Favor an 1858 Remington"
SGT. Smokin' Gun, Mosby's Rangers 43rd Virginia Cavalry C.S.A.
SASS# 19634, ...
Admin:http://blackpowdersmoke.com/oldcoots/index.php
Smokin_Gun is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:31 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10409 seconds with 8 queries