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Old July 18, 2009, 09:37 AM   #26
Brian Pfleuger
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That is a great example of a brave man right there. Doing what has to be done and no more. Awesome. I'll probably catch some flak for this but his single mistake was probably made in carrying a single action revolver for defense.
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Old July 18, 2009, 10:17 AM   #27
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I'll probably catch some flak for this but his single mistake was probably made in carrying a single action revolver for defense.
This is one of those cases in which everything worked out OK but things could have turned out worse.

I usually carry a five shot DA revolver. A lot faster to reload than an 1875 Remington or Colt Model P, but there's always the possibility that five won't be enough.

Two things amaze me here: The fact that the guy kept coming after several hits from the .45 (.38 Long Colt, OK, but .45?) and the armed citizen's choice of a replica of Frank James' sidearm.
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Old July 18, 2009, 10:37 AM   #28
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things amaze me here: The fact that the guy kept coming after several hits from the .45 (.38 Long Colt, OK, but .45?)
I've said it before and I'll say it again. If, for some reason, the person shot doesn't react to the PSYCHOLOGY of being shot ("Oh No, I've been SHOT") then it's down to how long it takes the physiology to shut down from either sheer trauma to the central nervous system or loss of blood (and oxygen to the brain).

If, for example, a person simply doesn't care (due to drugs, rage, etc) that they've been shot directly in the heart, they may still have a good 30-50 seconds of "operational" time before lack of oxygen to the brain renders them unconscious/dead.

In the typical combat situation a LOT can happen in 30-50 seconds!
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Old July 18, 2009, 03:06 PM   #29
Jim March
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I'll probably catch some flak for this but his single mistake was probably made in carrying a single action revolver for defense.
Well...did it really make a difference?

He got the first shot off damned fast, which is the SA's strong point. He hit with it, which was even better. And knowing follow-up shots weren't going to be as fast as, say, a Glock, he dove for cover and apparently maintained good use of cover and kept up effective fire - 3 out of 4 hits is damned good by any standard.

The gun broke, yeah - it was a cheap Italian piece. But the *design* wasn't half bad as it would still run with damage that would have turned anything else into a doorstop.

A Ruger SA likely wouldn't have broke, or at least would have held up under more stress than anything from Italy. (You can break anything, a Ruger included.)

One thing we still don't know about is ammo used. We know the caliber, but what was in there? You can get some very, VERY good modern JHPs in 45LC, including Speer's 250gr "giant hollowpoint from hell", basically the same slug as the 38+P 135gr except scaled WAY up. That Speer 250 may be among the world's most effective subsonic combat loads ever, in any caliber.

Then again, with a 7.5" barrel more or less any JHP should expand, and there are almost no really bad ones - the Winchester 225 Silvertip is likely the most common in circulation.

In any case, from the way the goblin was acting it's obvious he was high, probably cocaine...it can make people "feel immortal" like that.

Now, I carry an SA myself, Ruger New Vaquero in 357, 4.68" barrel. It's my daily carry CCW piece in Tucson AZ, carried in a fanny pack. It's loaded with the absolute nastiest 357s I can get - Speer's 125gr Gold Dot high speed variant slug loaded by Doubletap to warp speed...about 1,600fps, almost 800ft/lbs energy. It's a round I would NOT want to be hit with. And I've got exactly the same gameplan in mind that this guy pulled off: get an accurate and potent hit in fast then MOVE.

It worked for him.
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Old July 18, 2009, 03:33 PM   #30
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Well...did it really make a difference?
I simply can not see how a SA can have an advantage over any other gun. I can see disadvantages but no advantages, so the question is, why? Just for example, what if he'd been hit in the arm? He could have been unable to work the hammer. Imagine a broken trigger and a wounded arm? Very high chance in a situation like this. Did it happen? No, but he largely got lucky.
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Old July 18, 2009, 03:58 PM   #31
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But don't rule out the kid who was trained by Great Grampa and Grampa with a single action wheel gun from 6 years old... Never having grabbed the grip of a glock or even a DA wheel gun his whole life just a few rounds from a long gun to boot... I had a 60-70 sumthin year old scout leader that could hit 3 yardsale coffee cups tossed up at one time with 3 shots fanning the hammer from the hip...
Sumbuck didn't miss them big ol' slow flyin' fence chickens (pheasants) with a .45colt. Ol' Ernie Zeidi was a bad sumbuck on the backside of a single action wheel gun... cancer and all he was "THAT DUDE"...
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Old July 18, 2009, 04:07 PM   #32
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Well the trigger breaking was a fluke.

If he'd been shot in one hand, he'd have switched to the other. We can cock and fire these things one-handed with no problem, in fact these operate one-handed very nicely.

There's two advantages to these things over anything else:

* Fast into action on the first shot.

* Excellent "feel in the hand" and they tend to "point naturally" - better than almost anything else at naturally pointing the gun as an extension of your hand. Ergonomics are just superb - it was designed by people who used hand tools daily instead of CAD/CAM. Ergonomics is one area of science in which I believe we've gone backwards, not forward.

They also tend to be very accurate, esp. with upgraded (from 19th century standards) sights. Even with early style sights, with the longer barrel lengths they still work very well.

And they're usually carried with serious calibers, with the 45LC and 357 being the most common. Both are superb stoppers.

Yes, there's downsides. Rate of fire is a bit slower although in skilled hands...hell, check out this video:

http://flatlander.sixshootercommunity.org/videos/

It's only four seconds long...doesn't need to be longer.

The big downside is reload speed. And it's serious. But, KNOWING THAT, you're more likely to make your shots count. "Spray and pray" isn't part of the vocabulary. And the case we're discussing is a prime example - again, three out of four shots hit.
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Old July 18, 2009, 04:41 PM   #33
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Ergonomics could be an advantage, but I've not seen many people claiming that there isn't ANY auto or DA revolver that is just as good.

Speed on the first shot? Well, I don't know, seems like a 1911 or a Glock, or any other auto or even a DA revolver, really, would be or could be just as fast.

Glock has no safeties, pull the trigger.

1911 cocked and locked, disengage safety, pull the trigger.

SA revolver, cock the hammer, pull the trigger.

Same/same in my book. All can be done on the draw, with no speed disadvantage to speak of.

So far as accuracy, well, I'm going to say that at 5 or 8 feet, this guy would have been just as accurate with anything with a trigger.

I would be interested in exactly what form of "broken" the trigger had taken.
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Old July 18, 2009, 05:41 PM   #34
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I would be interested in exactly what form of "broken" the trigger had taken.
So would I. The Remmies have an interesting triggerguard system where the guard and trigger assembly connect into the frame from underneath. It's possible that whole assembly broke?

Also, a lot of those triggerguards were brass, and it's possible it bent inwards and jammed the trigger backwards. That would make slip-hammering a breeze.
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Old July 18, 2009, 05:55 PM   #35
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Also, a lot of those triggerguards were brass, and it's possible it bent inwards and jammed the trigger backwards. That would make slip-hammering a breeze.
That's kind of what I wondered. It would seem like a broken trigger could easily make it possible to end up with the hammer locked back and no way to release it, or it could make it so there is no way to lock it back, which would be a WHOLE LOT better in this case.
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Old July 20, 2009, 04:00 PM   #36
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UPDATE!!!

The police HAVE interviewed the good guy and are apparently sitting on his gun as evidence for the moment.

He just gave an interview with the paper to the same reporter that has seen the store's videotapes. The paper isn't releasing the guy's name, thank God.

In the interview he gives a detail not present in the VCDL account: once the goblin ran his gun dry (also a revolver) and clicked it a couple of times, the good guy stopped firing. THAT'S why he still had at least one round left (four shots fired). The goblin approached the counter area, wrestled with the good guy, tried to grab that Remmie, good guy retains control over it and beats the goblin upside the head - goblin tries to leave, collapses at the door.

It's apparently that period where the goblin is up and moving with a dry gun that the other people in the store urged some more action from that Remmie. And really, it would likely have been ruled justified under those circumstances if he had. Even a dry gun is an effective bludgeon and we know the goblin had murderous intent.

The key point here is that the good guy CHOSE not to keep firing. If the goblin had a speedloader and knew how to use it, he'd have been screwed but really, with this type of predator that's pretty unlikely and in any case he would have heard the "tinkle sound" of rounds dropping if the goblin had begun a reload.

http://www.timesdispatch.com/rtd/new...223008/280885/

So the Remmie didn't fail to fire, the good guy held fire. This to me absolutely seals the deal as far as this guy not getting charged. And while not totally tactically sound, holding fire once the goblin ran dry will likely help at least some with the post-shooting guilt syndrome...he was absolutely in the right the whole way and nobody will ever question that 'cept maybe the goblin's kin.
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Old July 20, 2009, 04:22 PM   #37
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Alternate link:

http://www.timesdispatch.com/rtd/new...234801/280934/
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Old July 20, 2009, 07:56 PM   #38
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A lot of us talk about how we would react when TSHF, but really we are speaking in the abstract; me included. I can only hope and pray that I could react in the positive manner in which this gentleman did in protecting his friend and the other people in the store. He not only defended the people in the store, but he was also aware enough to think through whether he needed to take the BG's life and the consequences to himself. Understanding that he will never be the same because of the events of that day, I wish him well. I hope that people will help to protect his privacy unless and until HE chooses to go public.
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Old July 20, 2009, 08:16 PM   #39
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Legally, that's how it should be done.

If he did not warn the robber to drop the weapon, and he was later identified, a corrupt lawyer could still argue some BS and pin some charges on the good guy.

Tactically, I don't think it's too bad considering the turnout.

The robber was reloading with a gun pointed at him. Since he didn't drop it, he was shot. The "cowboy" had good control.

Morally, well, BG already shot a guy. Plus, he was warned, but he still insisted on reloading.


Just my $0.02.
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Old July 21, 2009, 03:42 AM   #40
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I wasn't there i dont know the circumstances all i know is what i have read and i am not going to pass judgement or say if it was right or wrong because NOBODY really knows unless you were in the store at the time it happened. I give major kudo's to the good guy and a job well done he did what he had to do to neutralize the threat and who am i to judge his tactics on doing so
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Old July 21, 2009, 09:15 AM   #41
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who am i to judge his tactics on doing so
Because this is the tactics and training section... that's our job, to dissect other people tactics based on what we are told and decide whether it was a good or bad thing to do... Its not a condemnation of them (though sometimes people turn it into that), but the ability to learn from other peoples successes and mistakes
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Old August 1, 2009, 05:26 AM   #42
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The overall situation reference a plan of action, was quite simple.

1/ No question as to who the bad guy was, none!

2/ Had gun, shoot BG.

Now of course pre-fight planning, for the next time (lightning does not strike twice) it has.

What has this well documented shooting told the group (us!) we need lots of rounds, effective ones, keep shooting! Sights that work with both eyes open, shoot/practice both eyes open, if your range allows this, put 3 or 4 targets up (to simulate one target, person, moving) people on drugs stop when the brain runs out of gas! Reason, brain shot, or body damage, with the added heart speed helping blood loss.

A very good primer to your gun fight, one which has actually happened, recently, documented reality we can all profit by.

Lesson one, in a gun fight, have a gun!

Keep Safe.
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Old August 1, 2009, 10:44 AM   #43
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No warning for that guy. Bang his dead.
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Old August 1, 2009, 11:08 AM   #44
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Thanks goes out to KLRANGL....

I was just about to post that much more accurate story of what happened.

It's amazing how dumbed down and un-informative the original story was. the one he posted was a much better story of what happened as well as a great advocate for OC or CCW (The way it SHOULD be)
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Old August 4, 2009, 10:36 PM   #45
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Unconfirmed report is that the gun was an Uberti. No word on age; newer ones (esp. last 5 or so years) are better than previous.

There are supposedly a few high-quality American-made clones of the 1875 floating around but production was VERY low, odds are still strong this was an Italian gun and Uberti would be the most likely candidate in any case (biggest production numbers).
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Old August 4, 2009, 11:53 PM   #46
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I'm glad this didn't turn into an anti-gun story. I'm surprised the bg could fight the GO after being shot, seriously?
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Old August 5, 2009, 12:03 AM   #47
Jim March
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I'm surprised the bg could fight the GO after being shot, seriously?
Oh, it ain't the first time. In the infamous Miami '86 shootout (FBI v. two lunatics name of Platt and Matix) the guy that did most of the killing did so after suffering a mortal wound. Among other medical issues he was spraying blood out one arm's upper inside major artery (blown up by a 9mm Winchester Silvertip that opened correctly) while delivering accurate fire with a Ruger Mini-14 (.223). Horrifying stuff.

To stop somebody who will NOT "psychologically stop" (oww! I better run away or surrender!), you have to do one of the following:

* Drop their blood so they pass out. With a handgun, that means a REALLY major hit to the chest to do so quickly enough they can't return fire, and even that's iffy. With a rifle shot to the chest, hydrostatic damage to surrounding areas can take out multiple major blood vessels at once and odds of a stop go up. But that doesn't happen with handguns...wellll...I take that back, it CAN, but you have to deliver big power to a rib bone or sternum, shatter that and use pieces of bone as secondary shrapnel throughout the chest. A very hot 357 can make that shot, but it's not at all guaranteed.

* Break the upper spine or brain.
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Old August 5, 2009, 12:07 AM   #48
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Oh, it ain't the first time. In the infamous Miami '86 shootout
Wow i am fairly new to guns; some interesting stuff I am learning.
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Old August 5, 2009, 12:08 AM   #49
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lets jus say that if i had been in that situation my gun would have been empty before it was all said and done
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Old August 6, 2009, 05:15 AM   #50
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1986 Miami shoot out

This was a very unique incident in the annals of bad guys, against Cops (FBI) in as much as the mind set of the Agents was Arrest/Apprehend mode, the two criminals had shown their mind set in the previous escapades they had been involved in "Shoot armored car guy dead, take cash"

The one word for the BGs MO, "kill" and the main man so to speak, had a Mini 14 Ruger, in .223, one he had fired a lot of rounds through.

The FBI blamed every one, even the 9MM WW Silvertip round, which performed exactly as designed, the advent of the .40S&W cartridge came about from this show down, when the 9mm and .45 ACP had been killing people quite effectively for close to 100 years.

The blame the other guy/ammo/tools, is entrenched in the annals of shift the blame in our society. In googling the massive amount of info on this one FBI Shootout? Mind boggling!
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