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Old July 15, 2009, 07:24 PM   #1
wickedrider
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Tactically is this how it should be done?

This is an incident that occurred in Richmond, VA, I believe on Saturday. Note how the victims were telling the the OC to kill him. Note his reaction. He only used the force necessary to stop the threat. Is this how it should be done?

http://www.timesdispatch.com/rtd/new...0016/#comments

Richmond Store owner grateful for man who shot robber

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By Reed Williams

Published: July 15, 2009

Three days after Mustapha Kassou was shot in an attempted robbery in his store in South Richmond, he said that he owed his life to the man who ended the ordeal by shooting the robber.

Yesterday, Kassou returned to Golden Food Market on Jefferson Davis Highway for the first time since he was shot there Saturday afternoon.

Kassou said the masked robber walked into the store shortly after 1 p.m. and seemed startled to see about eight people inside. The robber told everyone to get on the floor, and then he fired at Kassou and hit him twice, he said.

"When the guy shot me, I was waiting for him to finish me," Kassou said. "I was knocked down behind the cash register."

The other armed man pulled a six-shot revolver from his holster and told the robber to drop his weapon, Kassou said. When he didn't, authorities say, the man shot the robber once in the torso, took the robber's gun and called police.

Witnesses told police it appeared the robber ran out of bullets and tried to reload. Some people in the store told the man to finish off the robber, witnesses reported.

"Everyone was telling him to kill him," Kassou said, "but he said, 'I can't do it.'"

Saturday's incident was the second such shooting at the store in a month.

The two shootings at Golden Food and the fatal shooting of a shopkeeper last month in another store just blocks away have alarmed some nearby residents, although police say the number of violent crimes along the Jefferson Davis corridor has been declining since May.

Councilwoman Reva Trammell, whose 8th District includes the corridor, and police Cmdr. Steve Drew will hold a public safety meeting for Jeff Davis-area business owners tonight from 6 to 8 at the Satellite Restaurant, 4000 Jefferson Davis Highway.

Kassou was released from the hospital Sunday, but he was limping and in obvious pain yesterday. He sat inside his store with family members, but he kept the front door locked. He said the shootings have made him scared of almost everyone.

He said he was struggling with whether he should reopen the store. He does not know how he would support his wife and two children if he chooses to keep the store closed.

Kassou said he is considering returning to his native Morocco. He said he is an American citizen and has lived here about 20 years and loves this country.

"It's not worth it anymore," he said, adding that he will arm himself if he reopens the store.

Kassou said he still is alive because of God -- and because of the man who drew a .45-caliber Western-style revolver and ended Saturday's robbery by shooting the gunman.

"He saved a lot of lives," Kassou said. "He was like an angel who came to save everybody."

Authorities say the robber was wounded after he shot Kassou and fired on customers.

Neither Kassou nor the police would identify the man who shot the robber. Authorities said an initial investigation indicates the man acted lawfully when he shot the robber.

Police have charged James Grooms III, 30, of South Richmond with attempted robbery, use of a firearm and possession of a firearm by a felon.

He remained in critical condition last night at VCU Medical Center.

A woman who said she is one of Grooms' relatives declined to comment when reached by phone yesterday.
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Old July 15, 2009, 07:39 PM   #2
Brian Pfleuger
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Quote:
Tactically is this how it should be done?
I don't know about giving the guy a warning after he already shot someone, but other than that, yes.


"Authorities said an initial investigation indicates the man acted lawfully when he shot the robber."

Whew! Bet they needed the rocket scientists to figure that one out.
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Old July 15, 2009, 08:27 PM   #3
skydiver3346
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Shooting in Richmond:

Thank God for CCW in that incident. No telling how many folks would have been shot if the robber was not stopped by this citizen and his conceal carry pistol. Richmond, VA is my home town and I feel for the store owner and his family. Being as this business has been robbed (prior to this hold up as well), it is probably best the owner does arm himself before re-opening his store....
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Old July 15, 2009, 09:14 PM   #4
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Why the heck give a warning? I'll never figure that one out. Folks watching too much TV maybe?
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Old July 15, 2009, 09:29 PM   #5
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Quote:
Why the heck give a warning? I'll never figure that one out. Folks watching too much TV maybe?
Or too afraid of being prosecuted for acting lawfully... Or afraid of actually having to shoot someone...

I think the more interesting fact is that everyone in the store told him to finish the guy off...
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Old July 15, 2009, 09:51 PM   #6
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Quote:
I think the more interesting fact is that everyone in the store told him to finish the guy off...
Interesting, and unsurprising. When you consider how little time so many who are convicted of crimes like this (and worse) actually serve, well...reactions like this are quite understandable.
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Old July 15, 2009, 10:03 PM   #7
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Quote:
Why the heck give a warning?
Perhaps an effort to try and keep from having to shoot someone. There are ways to use graduated amounts of force, there's also this;

Quote:
Witnesses told police it appeared the robber ran out of bullets and tried to reload.
The good guy may have tried to take advantage of this "reload" to gain compliance by the robber, when he felt it was not going to happen, he fired.

Either way, to answer the question, I believe it was artfully done, the man exercised great restraint and finesse.
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Old July 15, 2009, 10:16 PM   #8
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I'd like to know what kind of "Cowboy gun" he was carrying. If he used a single action six shooter it would be interesting to know.

I've been thinking about carrying a birdseye grip single action sheriff type model. I know that isn't a very popular choice for CC, and many people would think it an unwise and insane choice, but when I pick up a single action six gun it's like an extension of my arm, a feeling I never get with simiautos or even modern revolvers. I "know" where the bullet's going to hit, I don't have to use the sights, it's simply a matter shooting what I'm looking at. With simi's that "extension of the arm" feeling isn't there and I have to rely on the sights to hit what I want to.

I guess it all comes down to what one's comfortable with.

If things went down as were described, it sounds like the man handled himself and the situation very well.

Last edited by Trooper Tyree; July 15, 2009 at 10:27 PM.
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Old July 15, 2009, 11:25 PM   #9
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The man did a great job, no doubt abt that. But how come the shooter is not identified? Did he wait for the police or left the place? Could any one enlighten me what would happen if a person legally shot some one & leave the scene without informing the authorities and wait for their arrival? I mean can charges be pressed against him(later of course because sooner or later he may be discovered). Thanks
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Old July 15, 2009, 11:28 PM   #10
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As much as I'd love to know details on the gun, the shooter SHOULD NOT BE IDENTIFIED!!!

The robber may have equally twisted kinfolk or fellow gangbangers.
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Old July 15, 2009, 11:44 PM   #11
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Check out this posted comment to the story:

---
Posted by ( nostretstranger ) on July 15, 2009 at 5:02 pm

IF U KNEW MR.GROOMS, U WOULD KNOW THAT THIS IS (WAS) NOT HIS CHARACTER. IT’S SAD TO KNOW THAT YET ANOTHER LIFE HAS BEEN TAKEN FOR A SENSELESS CRIME. MY HEART AND PRAYERS GOES OUT TO THIS MAN AND HIS FAMILY.
THE INDIVIDUAL THAT THINKS HE DID SOCIETY A FAVOR, U DIDN’T…U ONLY HAVE TO FACE FATE ON JUDGMENT DAY. I HOPE AND PRAY U CAN JUSTIFY THIS TO UR MAKER, (AND NOT YOUR PARENTS EITHER!!)
THERE WAS NO HERO IN THIS SHAME ONLY A TRAGEDY. ANOTHER INDIVIDUAL LOST TO SOCIETY AND TURNED TO THE STREETS.

MR.GROOMS WILL ALWAYS BE LOVED AND MOST IMPORTANTLY HIS GOOD MEMORIES WILL BE CHERISHED…...
---

Jim again. You want the author of THAT little screed knowing the name of the CCW holder?
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Old July 15, 2009, 11:54 PM   #12
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You think that's bad, read some of the comments at the end of this article.

http://boards.msn.com/MSNBCboards/th...param=Page%3d2


The article says "Neither Kassou nor the police would identify the man who shot the robber." Would, not could, I'm sure they know who he is they just wouldn't release who it was.
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Old July 16, 2009, 12:29 AM   #13
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Single action wheelgun?

If so: STYLE POINTS, BAYBEE!

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Old July 16, 2009, 02:52 AM   #14
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Just imagine the Police asking the customers who have just had their lives saved (they would think) by a man with a "Cowboy gun" to describe the "Cowboy"

"What guy with a gun?" "I was looking the other way" I bet 4 where in the toilet!
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Old July 16, 2009, 11:09 AM   #15
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Deleted a few off-topic posts.

Please stick to the subject in the OP. Hijacking is rude.

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Old July 16, 2009, 11:53 AM   #16
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How? Can't say. Wasn't there.

If I had to venture a guess, I do not think I would have found myself giving a warning. Matter of fact, I really, really don't think so!

What one cannot know is whether the man with the man who saved the day might have been able to shoot first. Mr. Kassou might have been better off.
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Old July 17, 2009, 05:45 AM   #17
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Good guy handled it extremely well. Whether or not to speak, is up to the individual. Not listening to the peanut gallery telling him to finish off the bad guy was paramount. Once the bad guy is no longer a threat, you've reached your limit on deadly force. If good guy had executed (yes, it would have been an execution) the downed bad guy, the good guy would be no better than the bad guy.
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Old July 17, 2009, 07:29 AM   #18
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Quote:
Good guy handled it extremely well. Whether or not to speak, is up to the individual. Not listening to the peanut gallery telling him to finish off the bad guy was paramount. Once the bad guy is no longer a threat, you've reached your limit on deadly force. If good guy had executed (yes, it would have been an execution) the downed bad guy, the good guy would be no better than the bad guy.
+1
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Old July 17, 2009, 08:34 AM   #19
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Why the heck give a warning? I'll never figure that one out. Folks watching too much TV maybe?
I'm going with "absolutely didn't want to take a life and was giving a last gasp effort at diffusing the situation before doing anything irreversible".

Tactically unsound, but very VERY human.
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Old July 17, 2009, 09:21 AM   #20
Jim March
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Quote:
Tactically unsound, but very VERY human.
Yup. Required reading: "On Killing" by Col. Grossman. He shows exactly what happens when people go to war: they either kill, or they run away, or they go into a supporting-role mode (reloading the guns for the people who ARE shooting, fetching ammo, caring for wounded, etc.) or they "posture" - basically try and scare the other guy away.

"Posturing" takes all kinds of forms, some of which are tactically sound, some are so very NOT.

Verbally challenging an "active shooter" falls deep in the "not" category, but "posturing" to avoid a lethal fight is hard-wired into our genes. So it happens a lot.

Damned few people can go from "zero to kill" even under serious threat. You have to mentally work out the morality of the situation beforehand so you're not trying to do so when it's a two-way shooting range. And THEN you have to roll-play the hell out of it if you want even a chance of it working out as well as it did in this case.

Plain fact: humans are NOT hard-wired to kill. Believe it.
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Old July 17, 2009, 09:36 AM   #21
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Quote:
Perhaps an effort to try and keep from having to shoot someone. There are ways to use graduated amounts of force, there's also this;
Nope, just a combination of ignorance, stupidity and timidity. It's just as simple as that. No warning required or desired, in that situation.
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Old July 17, 2009, 09:51 AM   #22
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Quote:
"On Killing" by Col. Grossman
Excellent reading by the way.

On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society
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Old July 17, 2009, 11:51 AM   #23
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Strickly from a tactics standpoint I'd say the warning was a serious mistake unless it happened while the BG was reloading. Still not all that tactically sound but the other guy being in the middle of a reload is a bit mitigating. He did good though. In the end the good guy accomplished his goal, and it's hard to argue with success.
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Old July 17, 2009, 10:30 PM   #24
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I just got this in a VCDL update from Philip Van Cleave (VCDL President). I thought it was worth posting here as it has some interesting points, and does a lot to clear up the situation (not just what the news tells you). Sorry its a bit long, but there is no way to directly link to it.

Quote:
On Friday I received a surprise call from the gun owner who has been
in the press this week for saving lives at a Richmond store. The gun
owner used a replica 1875 Remington Army .45 Long Colt with a 7 1/2
inch barrel to stop a criminal who had shot the store's owner.

He wanted to remain anonymous, but called so that the story could be
set straight, as much of what was in the press wasn't accurate.

Board member Dennis O'Connor and I ended up meeting with him today
(Saturday) at the Golden Market store, where the shooting had taken
place one week earlier.

Besides being able to actually see the layout of the store, Dennis and
I got to see the security videos of the shooting!

We also got to meet the store owner who had been shot twice during the
hold up, but is now back at his store. More on this great man later.

Here is what we know from talking to the gun owner and watching the
videos:

The gun owner (GO) was in the store waiting in line to pay for an item
when the bad guy (BG) came in wearing dark sunglasses and trying to
coverup his face while brandishing a revolver. The BG yelled for
everyone to get down and before anybody could react, immediately
walked over to the store owner and in a cold-blooded fashion shot him
twice. The owner then dropped down behind the counter. It wasn't
more than 2 seconds after the BG first walked in the doors that he
shot the store owner.

Those shots at the store owner missed a teenage boy's head by inches.

The GO yelled for the BG to drop his gun as the GO drew his gun. The
BG opened fire on the GO. The GO returned fire, hitting the BG as the
GO dove hard for the floor behind some barrels full of ice and drinks.

The BG ran towards the back of the store, aiming his gun at an
innocent man laying prone on the floor. Luckily the BG was too
distracted by the GO to shoot the man. There is no doubt in my mind
that the man would have been shot in cold blood that day if it weren't
for that GO returning fire.

The BG kept trying to get to the front of the store by walking up
various aisles and firing shots at the GO as he did so. At one point
cans of tinned meat exploded on a shelf as the BG took a shot at the GO.

What was bizarre was that the BG actually was strutting around like he
owned the place while under fire! As he approached the front of one
aisle, he again pointed a gun at a person on the ground and was about
to execute him, when he was again distracted by the GO.

Finally the GO spotted the BG at the front of an aisle standing in the
open.

Much to his surprise, the GO discovered that when he dove hard for the
floor he had somehow broken the trigger on his gun!

But the gun was a single action, so the GO pushing himself up with one
arm, aimed the gun, pulled the hammer back and let it fly forward -
twice.

Although seriously wounded three times, the BG came at the GO. The BG
tried to grab the GO's gun since the BG's gun was out of ammunition.
A life-and-death struggle began. The GO got a grip on the BG's gun
and the GO hit the BG twice hard on the temple with the 7 1/2" barrel
on his rather heavy gun.

The BG finally broke off the engagement, tried to run out the front
door, but collapsed at the door.

The GO secured the BG's gun and keeping an eye on the now unconscious
bad guy, called 9-1-1.

The BG has now died (he was in critical condition since the shooting).

The police showed up a minute or so after the 9-1-1 call and initially
had everyone in the store at gun point and handcuffed some until they
could figure out who was who.

What really impressed me was that on the surveillance video, the
owner, while shot twice by the BG, was walking around making sure that
all of his customers were OK after the shooting had ended. He only
let himself collapse after he was sure they were OK! Words fail me on
this. I am so glad that he made it. What a dichotomy - a BG who
shoots an innocent person without provocation, almost killing a
teenager while doing so - caring for no one but himself. And then
the store owner who, while seriously wounded, making sure his
customers were OK. Evil exists and so does Good. Both were on
display in those two minutes of terror. Luckily only the bad guy was
killed. The owner was walking with a limp, clearly in some pain. :-(

A lot of people owe their lives to that GO. However, he is having
none of it, saying that he simply did what he had to do.

--

The GO wanted me to share the following points:

* Buy a quality gun - don't use some cheap $90 gun to protect your
life. He considered his gun to be a good one and even then the
trigger broke under the extreme stress of a life-and-death battle.

* Practice with your gun, get training, and be good with that gun.

* More and more BGs are choosing to kill in cold blood to get what
they want. If they can't live the "good life, " then they don't care
if their crimes send them to jail.

* He also noted that fewer and fewer BGs are getting any jail time.

--

Here are my thoughts from watching that tape:

* Talk about a cold-blooded, fast attack where an innocent was shot
without warning! Unbelievable. Situational awareness is really
important. Luck doesn't hurt, either.

* Open carry was an advantage in this case because in the video I saw
just how fast the GO managed to draw his gun and begin to return
fire. You always hear about how open carry is so bad tactically -
you'll be the first one shot, etc. Oh, yeah? The GO had a HUGE gun
in plain sight and he was NOT shot. Who got shot first? An unarmed
store owner.

* I am betting that the BG was on drugs, big time. He was hit with
THREE 45-CALIBER BULLETS, with at least two of those hits causing
grievous injury, and he continued the fight as if he had not even been
hit at all! In fact he was strutting like a peacock who owned the
place as he was walking up and down the aisles trying to get to a
position where he could shoot the GO. As a gun owner, you need to be
prepared for that eventuality and keep shooting the BG in his center
of mass until he stops his attack. Don't think one shot, or even two
shots, are going to do it. And a head shot might well be what it
takes to stop such an attack quickly.

* If you are out of ammunition, a gun does make a great weapon with
which to bludgeon someone in hand-to-hand combat.

* This shooting bolstered both sides of the argument about how much
ammunition one should carry. The good guy got off only four shots (of
course his gun had a broken trigger and that didn't help). The bad
guy got off six shots and ran out of ammunition (thankfully). But in
my mind, and having had some advanced training, I think an extra
magazine for a semi-auto, or a reloader for a revolver, is a good
idea. WIth someone like the BG above, if you run out of ammunition
before he does, he will execute you. Period.
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Old July 18, 2009, 05:55 AM   #25
Jim March
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Holy crap...trigger broke so he slip-hammered it. This would have been an Italian replica, likely Uberti or Pietta, possibly Armi San Marco if he's had it a while?

I'm glad I pack a Ruger.

Although to be fair, the reason slip-hammering worked is because the gun had no transfer bar or hammer block safety. It's still possible to carry a Remington fully loaded, as the cylinder has between-position notches to lower the hammer between live rounds, a practice North American Arms revived in their mini-revolvers. OR he was doing "five up carry", hammer down on the empty. Either way, he solved the matter with four rounds (and three hits) so it hardly matters.

EXCELLENT shooting and gun handling. The guy knew his gun and knew how to compensate for damage to it and keep fighting. Sounds like excellent use of cover, too.
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