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Old July 11, 2009, 07:36 PM   #1
rmocarsky
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A possible scenario in the near future

OK shooters,

Here is the case:

You are 58 years old, 165 lbs. 5'9".

You have been assaulted by a 30 year old weighing about 250 lbs. 6'2".

You have a restraining order on him not to approach you or contact you in any way.

You work the 2nd shift and get home from work approx. 4:30 a.m.

You are getting out of your car down the street from your home and you are armed.

Suddenly this 30 year old appears and approaches you saying he just wants to talk, only wants to talk.

He has threatened your life verbally and to do great bodily harm many, many times and then he finally assaulted you and you had the restraining order invoked.

And here he comes.

You can see his hands. They are empty and his voice has a pleading tone to it.

But here he comes.

What would you do.
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Old July 11, 2009, 07:39 PM   #2
Bayou Rifle
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Get back in the car drive down the block, call 911, and hold my gun while I wait for the cops.
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Old July 11, 2009, 07:44 PM   #3
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Do not engage. Drive away. Call 911.
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Old July 11, 2009, 07:57 PM   #4
Japle
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You say this is "a possible scenario in the near future". Do you expect this guy to attack you?

Your response depends on where you live, what kind of criminal record the guy has (though that will matter after the attack), what the cops and the courts have told you, what prompted the restraining order and several other factors you know much better than we do.

I can tell you I would not let said guy get near me no matter what he said or how passive he was. You obviously don't trust him and neither does the judge who signed the order. You must interpret his approach as the prelude to an attack.

Take care.
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Old July 11, 2009, 08:50 PM   #5
ChileVerde1
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+1 On advice from other two members!!

However,

There is a principle in law enforcement called disparity of force in use of force scenarios. Notice I said Law Enforcement, but I think this provides a sound basis for civilians as well, state laws etc... permitting. If a person can articulate disparity of force ie much stronger, younger attacker, exhaustion, or physical impairment that does not allow you to fight any longer you can make an argument for justification for use of deadly force. You must also articulate means of doing harm, opportunity to do harm, and intent. You must also have a fear of him causing your death or grievous bodily harm, which as we all know can be accomplished by a good but whippin!!

Obviously, approaching you in a casual way has not met any of those so call the "law" and avoid him. Get a report every time you call or start a paper trail with evidence of him violating the protection order. Caveat: should something happen and if it is percieved in any way that you sought a confrontation you SOL (Capital Murder-Manslaughter). Also, unfortunately, keep in mind even an innocent post like this could be used against someone in court. I could very easily see some anti-gun DA seizing a computer and you know the rest... Suddenly you're a depraved "gun nut" who was seeking a "recipe" for murder!

It sounds crazy but believe me it's not far from the truth. Best of luck and I really hope there is a peacefull resolution.

Chile
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Old July 11, 2009, 09:03 PM   #6
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I agree that you should attempt to break off and get away. You should also go to Staples and buy this excellent voice recorder, learn how it works, and keep it on you at all times!

I've posted this before, I'm going to repeat it now.
Quote:
Thoughts on the worth of a “Restraining Order”

This is the same thing I say every time the phrase “restraining order” comes up.

It is VITALLY important to understands that a "restraining order” is.
It is a -legal document- that gives law enforcement legal grounds to arrest and prosecute the violator after (note that word AFTER) they have ignored it.

What a “restraining order” is NOT.
A “restraining order” is NOT a magic shield that will prevent the ex/psycho from coming around. Fully 80% of the time a restraining order actually serves to incite rage. The order needs to be filed as part of the progression of legal action but the period right after one is filed is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS and you must be on HIGH ALERT and you must protect yourself with extra care!

In spite of the “incitement” danger you should still file a restraining order as part of the process of dealing with an ex or psycho, but then you MUST get a notebook and/or a voice recorder and document EVERYTHING. Every phone call, every encounter, date, time, details. I mean everything, even if you start getting hang-up type phone calls you need to document it. EVERYTHING! I simply cannot stress this enough.
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Old July 11, 2009, 09:13 PM   #7
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Give me that set of circumstances, . . . I will try to get out of Dodge, . . . doing the 911 thing as fast as I can.

Barring that as a possibility, . . . I would un-holster, . . . let him see the front end of a 1911 pointed directly at his COM, . . . and tell him in the harshest tone I could muster that he is in violation of the restraining order, . . . I fear he will harm me, . . . and I will stop him if he comes any closer.

He can figure out how I'm going to stop him, . . . but it will happen.

I'm 6'2" and 200, . . . but I'm also 64+, one bad knee, . . . open heart sugery patient, . . . and not in any kind of mood to let my old butt get kicked or killed by some young smart aleck. I came back from 3 trips to SVN, . . . just don't relish the idea of bleeding out on the local streets as someone's punching bag.

May God bless,
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Old July 11, 2009, 10:26 PM   #8
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Shoot him!

Just kidding. If he's violating a restraining order I would probably remind him of that, tell him to keep his distance, and let him say what he needs to say. But that's just me...
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Old July 11, 2009, 11:30 PM   #9
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What "Bayou Rifle" and Japle said. Get back in the car, drive off to a safe distance (possibly to a police station directly), call 911, wait with gun handy.

Shooting someone should be a *last* resort, but somebody who has repeatedly threatened you, harmed you, and been slapped with a restraining order does NOT get to walk up and "just talk". He's breaking the law. By approaching you he *IS* threatening you. And, trust me, he knows it. An abuser who has been in therapy and wants to make amends knows what he can and cannot do and obeys the rules. You don't have to give an abuser the benefit of the doubt; he already exhausted all the chances he had coming. But you should not shoot unless he continues to approach and you cannot get out of there any other way.

By the way, a voice-activated tape recorder is a *very* good idea as well. But don't stick around and chat just because you have one. :-)
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Old July 11, 2009, 11:48 PM   #10
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honestly depends how close he is. If within 20 feet then I draw and scream to get down on the ground multiple times as I back away into my car with weapon still drawn. Then I drive off and call police.
If more then I firmly state that if he gets any closer you will defend yourself and you are calling police regardless as you back into your car and drive off.

If it was me and I had that restraining order I wouldn't even hesitate I would pull out and yell for him to get on the ground. If he didn't comply after the 3rd QUICK yell I would shoot. He already assaulted me. Any closer and I am done. Btw, I am in my 20's and I am only 145 at 5'10". The obvious difference in force there would be overwhelming.
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Old July 12, 2009, 12:30 AM   #11
Doc Intrepid
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Like the others said, beat feet.

Get back in the car first and lock the door, before you worry about anything else.

(If he 'just wants to talk', fine...but you're under no obligation to talk to him. Besides, if he picks up something and tries to bust in through the glass you'll catch on quick that the agenda just changed.)

He may approach close to the car before you can start the engine and reverse out of there, but bottom line is that once you're locked inside the car you have a number of advantages.

Drive off somewhere safe and call 911.

These kinds of cases call for (to the best of your ability) scrupulously sticking to the letter of the law, or (as another poster already noted) you will be in just as much legal trouble as the perpetrator.

The idea for a digital recorder is a great idea, and has been recommended for these situations frequently by both police and lawyers. The problems in court cases are that so frequently "who said what to whom, when" comes down to a "he claims/she claims" situation. Can't prove anything - so prosecution is tough. A digital recorder captures who said what to whom, when, and can be admitted as evidence in court.

Two other things you may want to consider are (a) non-lethal options; and (b) consulting a lawyer. Lawyers can do things such as sending registered letters, providing specific legal advice, and communicating with the judge who signed the order and the courts in general regarding issues contingent to your case.

Obviously, if you're confronted its up to you. But the more evidence you can create before a confrontation that you did everything reasonably within your power to head off or avoid the confrontation, the more mitigating and extenuating evidence you can provide after the confrontation in your own defense.

Best with that,

Doc
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Old July 12, 2009, 12:36 AM   #12
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Disparity of force may cover you if you are forced to shoot but count on going to trial if you are forced to shoot an unarmed man. That's a lot of expense, a lot of time lost and, of course, carries a real risk of a murder conviction.

The first TX CHL shooting involved the death of an unarmed attacker. The CHL holder was acquitted after a fairly dicey trial. What kept him out of jail in no particular order:
  • He didn't talk at the scene.
  • He suffered permanent injury in the attack.
  • He was unable to drive away due to being boxed in by traffic.
  • He was unable to exit his vehicle & run because he was tangled in his seatbelt.
  • The attacker was very large and the defender was very small.
  • The defender's attorney was pretty smart. He got some autopsy pics that clearly showed the large size of the attacker and also prominently displayed the attacker's "Born to Kill" tattoo. The jury was reportedly very impressed with the pictures.
  • The incident that sparked the attack was pretty minor. It was pretty apparent that the attacker was over-reacting--looking for trouble.

What to do?
  • Be aware--don't let him get close.
  • If you really think this is a possibility then drive past once or twice or three times (your time & gas are cheap) to check things out and then come back around the block to park after you're satisfied things are safe.
  • When you park, look around before turning off the engine or getting out.
  • When you turn the engine off, get out of the car rapidly and head for safety. I see a lot of people who park and then spend another 5 or 10 minutes in their car getting their stuff together/finishing the song/whatever. Get out quickly and have the keys to your house ready so you don't have to fish for them at the door.
  • If you see him then create distance (use the car to do that if you can) and immediately call the police.
  • If you end up in a face-to-face encounter try to prevent him from closing. Have a plan for this. Decide in advance what distances and behaviors are going to trigger various reactions from you and stick with your plan to the extent that it is possible and reasonable.
  • Explore reasonable/legal options for stacking the deck in your favor. Pepper spray, for example, might allow you to get away without shooting him if he won't stop advancing.
At the point that you reasonably believe your life is in imminent danger then do what you have to do. Just be aware that you're almost certainly giving up your life savings if you have to shoot him and you're putting your job, your mental well-being and your freedom at risk.
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Old July 12, 2009, 02:49 AM   #13
Lost Sheep
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Don't talk to him

It seems to me that if you have a restraining order and you talk to him, you may indicate to the Judge and the Police that you don't take the restraining order seriously.

Absolutely call the police as soon as practical. It will help document that he is 1) dangerous and/or 2) is willing to violate the restraining order.

That first one was the only thing I can think of that has not been emphasized. Don't engage him verbally except to say he is in violation and to go away.

Generally in any tactical situation, if you are not the aggressor (and as a civilian, you should never be the aggressor) you are the defender and distance is your friend. So, all the advice you have received so far is sound.

I believe I would drive to the police statin rather than risk him following me.

Lost Sheep.

Last edited by Lost Sheep; July 12, 2009 at 02:55 AM.
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Old July 12, 2009, 04:58 AM   #14
rmocarsky
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Non-letal

I am the OP.

What are the best means of non-lethal defense available to civilians and the most potent to put 'em down from maybe 10 yards instantly and not endanger yourself of going down beside him due to wind change?

I am serious . . .

I have a real fear that this will probably occur.

What is the BEST most debilitating LEGAL non-lethal crusher available?

BTW . . . I live in Maryland . . .the most Victim-is probably the perp_state in the Country
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Old July 12, 2009, 06:36 AM   #15
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If you already have a restraining order, the time for talk is over.

I differ just slightly from the previous posts in this: If he knows where you live, I would not drive away from my house and leave my family exposed to whatever rage he develops. You say you park down the street from your home - drive there if it is safer than walking, and making the 911 call ASAP, and tell the dispatcher that you are parked in front of your house with your gun at the ready. If you have enough distance from your assailant to do so safely, get inside the house while staying on the line to 911. Your house is almost certainly more defensible than your car, and you have your family better covered. Leave the car in the middle of the street if you have to - if they give you a parking ticket under these circumstances at 4:30 AM, shame on them, and my bet would be that when a judge heard the "why" they would be in bigger trouble than you. If not, pay the ticket and know that you still did the right thing.

There are other folks on here that no more about pepper spray and such than I and may be able to recommend a specific product, so hopefully they will chime in later this morning.

Take good care of yourself and your family, and God bless you in your time of trouble.

Last edited by TailGator; July 12, 2009 at 06:55 AM.
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Old July 12, 2009, 06:46 AM   #16
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When you see him call 911 immediately. If you have a gun on you then you should also have a cell phone on you. As most others have said at least get back in your car and lock the doors. DO NOT shoot him just because he is walking toward you. If you do you are going to have a lot more sleepless nights and a lot less money.

If you have a restraining order against him you can have him arrested, he doesn't have to do anything other that get around you. If he just wants to talk he can do that through his lawyer. As for the recorder if you call 911 and stay on the phone they will have a recording.
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Old July 12, 2009, 08:46 AM   #17
scottaschultz
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Kyo wrote:
Quote:
If within 20 feet then I draw and scream to get down on the ground multiple times as I back away into my car with weapon still drawn.

...I would pull out and yell for him to get on the ground. If he didn't comply after the 3rd QUICK yell I would shoot.
Wrong answer!

Quote:
DO NOT shoot him just because he is walking toward you.
+1 for that! The ONLY reason for a civilian to carry a gun is for personal protection, NOT to enforce or uphold the law. That's what LEO's are for.

Scott
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Old July 12, 2009, 08:53 AM   #18
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Castle and Stand your Ground laws may be applicable.
It has been said a restraing order is a hunting license.

Having said that just tell him to leave.
If he refuses you leave. If he restrains you it's shooting time.

AFS
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Old July 12, 2009, 09:08 AM   #19
TailGator
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Quote:
It has been said a restra[in]ing order is a hunting license.
Oh, Lord. I am pretty sure the one who said that was not a judge or a lawyer. Can we leave it at that?
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Old July 12, 2009, 09:15 AM   #20
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it's been said by cops.
Never meant to attribute it to a lawyer or Judge.

AFS
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Old July 12, 2009, 09:32 AM   #21
OldMarksman
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Quote:
I draw and scream to get down on the ground multiple times as I back away into my car with weapon still drawn. .... If it was me and I had that restraining order I wouldn't even hesitate I would pull out and yell for him to get on the ground.
And you somehow think that you have the authority to tell him to "get on the ground"? To exhibit a weapon in a threatening manner while doing so?

Think again!

Quote:
If he didn't comply after the 3rd QUICK yell I would shoot.
Good way to give up your clean record, your fortune, your employability, your personal freedom, and your right to ever own a firearm.

Peace officers cannot do that. What makes you think you can?

Something to print and study today:

http://www.useofforce.us/
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Old July 12, 2009, 10:04 AM   #22
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Quote:
rmocarsky

I am the OP.

What are the best means of non-lethal defense available to civilians and the most potent to put 'em down from maybe 10 yards instantly and not endanger yourself of going down beside him due to wind change?

I am serious . . .

I have a real fear that this will probably occur.

What is the BEST most debilitating LEGAL non-lethal crusher available?
Non-lethal force options:
pepper spray - only have a max range of 20 feet
taser - the kind that shoots barbed contacts and wires max range 15 feet
asp or PR24 - contact range

I can't think of a non-lethal force instrument that is effective at 30 feet or more; except perhaps this new device.
http://www.defensereview.com/taser-x...shotgun-round/
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Old July 12, 2009, 10:26 AM   #23
Doc Intrepid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmocarsky
"I am the OP.

What are the best means of non-lethal defense available to civilians and the most potent to put 'em down from maybe 10 yards instantly and not endanger yourself of going down beside him due to wind change?

I am serious . . .

I have a real fear that this will probably occur.

What is the BEST most debilitating LEGAL non-lethal crusher available?"
Unfortunately you are looking for a non-lethal silver bullet - and one does not exist.

10 yards = 30 feet. 30 feet is a long defensive pistol shot, nevermind a reasonable distance for pepper spray, impact weapons, or even Tasers.

And, no matter what weapon you use, (including handguns,) "instantly" is going to be problematic.

If you have 30 feet distance, your best bet is to try to keep it. That is, back away from the threat (or hell, run if you can.) As JohnKSa noted, first your life may be on the line; but if not most certainly every penny you have in the bank, your house, your health, your family, and your freedom are on the line. If running will keep you alive, free, and out of courtrooms, that sounds like a great outcome to me.

There are likely other experts on the board who can provide more details than I can.

But generally speaking, the non-lethal force continuum moves from entirely passive tools such as "light", to more active tools such as "sound" (e.g. personal sirens - they basically serve to draw attention), to obscurants or lacrimators such as OC pepper spray or CN or CS-based aerosol sprays.

The difference between the two can be (but isn't always) important. Basically, Oleoresin Capsicum (OC) is organic. It is extracted from plants.

CN and CS are non-organic. They are chemical compounds. In at least one case I'm familiar with the 'attacker' filed suit against the 'defender' for "assault with chemical weapons" after having been sprayed with CN/CS.

Both are effective, but only to the extent that the attacker is sprayed directly in the eyes, nose, and mouth.

You won't get that effect at 30 feet. These are close range non-lethal tools.

Next on the force continuum are impact weapons such as ball bats, pieces of pipe, golf clubs, or ASP batons. While a Lousiville slugger or one of those Mag-light flashlights with 5 D-cell batteries in it might sound like a great choice, you may want to think twice. In general, while it sounds nuts, using something that was designed for (something else) against a person opens you up for greater liability than if you hit someone with something designed to hit people with. Basically, if you want to carry an impact weapon, select either a Monadnock baton, or an ASP expanding baton, or something else designed to knock the **** out of people. Don't hit someone with a flashlight.

Obviously, all these impact weapons require very close range to use. They don't meet your needs either.

Tasers probably don't either, but they are more effective at say, 7'-9' than a baton. Besides, I'm in my mid-50s also. I'm not going fisticuffs with some younger guy hopped up on either booze or chemicals. He isn't going to get that close in the first place, or we're going to very rapidly progress up the violence continuum... We're really talking about a non-lethal option to use if suddenly confronted at close range.

Most likely, as John noted, your best bet for a non-lethal option is a spray - either OC or OC mixed with CN/CS. Keep in mind that using a non-lethal option does not preclude using lethal force afterward, if the threat does not subside.

It simply indicates to a jury that you were willing to try non-lethal force before resorting to lethal force.

Again, if you indeed "have a real fear that this will probably occur", consult a lawyer. Get your ducks in a row. Communicate with the courts and with the individual (via the lawyer). Whatever money you spend on legal fees BEFORE you shoot someone is absolute chump change compared to the legal fees you will spend AFTER you shoot someone. Anything you can possibly do to avoid having to use lethal violence is much more effective than whatever you'll do after using lethal violence. In this game, the saying "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" is as true as it ever was.

There is really too much on the line in cases like this to just hope it will all go away. It's trite, but 'failing to plan' means 'planning to fail'. When the guy is suddenly in your face, you will react as you've planned to. If you have made no plan...that's probably how effective your response will be. Good luck with your situation.

Doc
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Old July 12, 2009, 10:28 AM   #24
skydiver3346
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Old Marksman: Here we go again!

Your quote: "And somehow, you think you have the authority to tell him to get to the ground'?? :barf: Typical resonse!

Uh, this dirt bag has threatened this man numerous times to do grave bodily harm to him... To the point that he had a restraining order issued against him. Also, this bully shows up at 4:30AM, "just to talk"........ Yeah right. Sounds like he was lying in wait for him to come home from work. Its called stalking I believe, (after being warned by a Judge to stay away from him).

Yes, he should yell at him! Ordering him (in a loud and deliberate command) to stop in his tracks immediately. "Do not approach me any further"! If he does approach, then he should order him to the ground with his weapon drawn. Any closing of the distance after all of that would result in him being dealt with (in any manor deemed necessary to eliminate this threat).

Note: Of course, with the victim being armed he should try his best to retreat and/or get in his vehicle to leave the scene if at all possible. But that may not be feasible, depending on the circumstances. If he can't leave, then what I stated above would be my best response (to this constant intrusion and threat to the man's safety and life). End of story........
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Old July 12, 2009, 10:58 AM   #25
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Quote:
Your quote: "And somehow, you think you have the authority to tell him to get to the ground'?? Typical resonse!
Yes, probably pretty typical of what your lawyer, the civll attorney of the man at gunpoint, law enforcement officers, and, should it come to that, a prosecuting attorney would say or ask.

Quote:
Yes, he should yell at him! Ordering him (in a loud and deliberate command) to stop in his tracks immediately. "Do not approach me any further"!
Sounds very reasonable indeed. Lay opinion.

Quote:
If he does approach, then he should order him to the ground with his weapon drawn.
At that point we start to disagree. What's the objective? To arrest him? What are the requirements in Maryland? Do you really want to take the risk? (Unlawful restraint, perhaps).

Quote:
Note: Of course, with the victim being armed he should try his best to retreat and/or get in his vehicle to leave the scene if at all possible. But that may not be feasible, depending on the circumstances...
Back in agreement, again. Whether armed or unarmed.

Personally, I believe I would at that point use a Kimber Pepper Blaster (pyrotechnic deployment, and far more effective than a spray).

http://personalsecurityzone.com/cgi-...roductID=27921

Watch the video.

I carry one of those in addition to a firearm, in case force is required but lethal force may not be.

Now, if that doesn't work and someone bigger and younger keeps coming, there's still a much more serious option if needed.

But it will not involve telling him to get on the ground, much less trying to enforce such a command.

Should deadly force be used, I should think the existence of the restraining order and prior repots of threats, along with the disparity of force, would help a defendant. Lay opinion.

It seems to me that the fact of a pepper shot, and the existence of forensic evidence showing that the assailant continued to advance after that shot, would help still more.

In Maryland, the gun will no doubt not be part of the equation. The pepper blaster will have to suffice.
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