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Old July 10, 2009, 06:49 PM   #1
Fingers McGee
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Interesting 1860 on GB

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=133644008
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Old July 10, 2009, 07:53 PM   #2
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not real handy for swapin cylinders is it?
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Old July 10, 2009, 10:10 PM   #3
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Now that is just wrong.
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Old July 10, 2009, 11:24 PM   #4
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Didja notice who the seller is? His mods aren't going to prevent the cylinder ratchet from imbedding in the recoil shield.
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Old July 10, 2009, 11:29 PM   #5
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yeah, I did.
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Old July 11, 2009, 07:12 AM   #6
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Maybe he's try to keep the arbor from pulling out of the frame, or just making an fugly gun.
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Old July 11, 2009, 07:56 AM   #7
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pretty nifty mods, that guy knows his onions
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Old July 11, 2009, 08:09 AM   #8
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The guy knows jack. Yeah, it'll keep the arbor from pulling loose but it won't keep those full loads from forcing the cylinder ratchet into the recoil shield.
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Old July 11, 2009, 08:16 AM   #9
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the cylinder will peen a brass frame regardless of full loads or small loads, what's your point ? The fact is, those mods work- Replica Arms pinned the arbor to the recoil shield on their brass frame guns in a similar manner, right from the factory- by drilling it vertically straight down under the hammer- I have one of the old frames and inspected it. The arbor is still tight after 40 years. It beats the crap out of loading it with 15 grains of powder all the time, nothing is more boring or ineffective than a blackpowder pistol loaded with only 15 grains powder. You seem to have an axe to grind with that seller, to the point of harassing his auctions here. Why don't you give it a break already, because you're coming off as the fox that can't reach the grapes here- it's not your idea, so it's not good ? yeh, we'll buy that...

Last edited by CaptainCrossman; July 11, 2009 at 08:22 AM.
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Old July 11, 2009, 08:38 AM   #10
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Quote:
the cylinder will peen a brass frame regardless of full loads or small loads, what's your point ? The fact is, those mods work- Replica Arms pinned the arbor to the recoil shield on their brass frame guns in a similar manner, right from the factory- by drilling it vertically straight down under the hammer- I have one of the old frames and inspected it. The arbor is still tight after 40 years. It beats the crap out of loading it with 15 grains of powder all the time, nothing is more boring or ineffective than a blackpowder pistol loaded with only 15 grains powder. You seem to have an axe to grind with that seller, to the point of harassing his auctions here. Why don't you give it a break already, because you're coming off as the fox that can't reach the grapes here- it's not your idea, so it's not good ? yeh, we'll buy that...
I disagree. Light loads will not drive the ratchet into the recoil shield. Heavy loads will to the point the gun is unusable. That mod will keep the arbor from pulling out but I never saw an arbor pull out anyway. I don't have an axe to grind with him. He's been here before popping off relentlessly about brass frames til we all got sick of his drivel.
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Old July 11, 2009, 09:06 AM   #11
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That is one expensive paper weight.
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Old July 11, 2009, 10:26 AM   #12
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A $50 Brasser ruined

Seems to me I've seen some folks claim that brassers like this could be had for $50 all day long.

I wonder why this one that has been all buggered up has a starting price of $165?
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Old July 11, 2009, 10:39 AM   #13
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Quote:
Seems to me I've seen some folks claim that brassers like this could be had for $50 all day long.
That was the good Capt. himself saying that. Guess his mods are worth 115.00
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Old July 11, 2009, 11:28 AM   #14
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Quote:
Yeah, it'll keep the arbor from pulling loose but it won't keep those full loads from forcing the cylinder ratchet into the recoil shield.

and if you drive a car a lot, the tires wear out too- what's your point ?
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Old July 11, 2009, 11:43 AM   #15
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Quote:
what's your point
My point is if you keep loads moderate in a brass frame it will last a lifetime or two. Keep them heavy and it'll wear out fast. Since you made the tire analogy it's kinda like a kid with a hotrod. His rear tires won't last long but give the same car to someone who isn't a lead foot and those same tires will last a lot longer.
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Old July 11, 2009, 04:16 PM   #16
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Very nice paper weight and wall holder but other then that the brass frame isent good for anything but looking good no matter what mods you make to a brass frame its still brass and wont last as long as a steel frame would.
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Old July 11, 2009, 06:13 PM   #17
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Captain Crossman has been selling a bunch of guns on Gunbroker lately. When I see his name on an auction I just pass. Most of his guns have been brass frames but he did have an interesting couple of steel framed guns. They were Fankenguns that were made up out of various parts he had laying around. The list of the manufactures of the parts was a Who"s Who of black powder gun makers. I passed on these also, I was curious but not enough to take a chance.
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Old July 12, 2009, 07:48 AM   #18
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If these brass frame revolver wear out so fast why are there 150 year old S&B, L&R, and G&G's still around in shootable condition.

Quote:
My point is if you keep loads moderate in a brass frame it will last a lifetime or two. Keep them heavy and it'll wear out fast.
I could not agree more. Save your breath hawg, some people just don't get it.
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Old July 12, 2009, 08:16 AM   #19
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With all these these cheap, plentiful, but weak brass frame guns on the market now, it makes good sense to plate and pin them. Then you can load up with full loads of powder and the gun will stay together.

Peening the frame with cylinder is not even a valid issue. If you want to make an omelette, you have to break a few eggs. What about the increased firepower, velocity, and performance of the full cylinder loads of powder, made possible by plating/pinning the brass frame ? It's well worth the increase in velocity and knockdown power, for a few little peen marks. With mods such as those, a brasser can be loaded with full cylinders and shoot all day long, just like a Remington 1858.

FWIW, the steel frames peen too. Any and every Colt open top peens the frame with the cylinder, by design. That's a red herring argument used as a distraction. Modern magnums stretch the topstrap eventually too, but you don't see Remington loading down their 357 and 44 magnum cartridges, because of it. What lame logic that would be. If the gun peens or stretches, then make the gun stronger- don't make the cartridge or powder load weaker.

I say it's a worthwhile mod, a few of those brass frames guns have come apart while I was shooting them, they can use all the help they can get. Looks ? What kind of person walks around trying to impress people with the looks of his gun. Who cares ? I don't remember seeing any wars won, or game killed, or smaller groups on targets, because a gun was good looking. That and 10 cents will buy you a cup of coffee, looks are window dressing, and subjective- all that glitters is not gold. Form should follow function, the plate on the "hot rod" gun says the structural weakness was recognized and addressed. I'm more impressed by the hand made plate fashioned in for strength, than by perfect bluing in that area on an otherwise weak gun. Like looking at a tunnel ram and 2-4's sticking out of a square hole cut in a Camaro hood- what kind of person complains about the hole- seems like selective bitching/nitpicking to me. The "looks" mindset is what gave us brass frames and "nickel" plated brass guns, for $250-$350 each new a few years back. The guys who bought them and were fooled by looks, got ripped off badly. Now they sell for $129 at Cabelas. That's what happens to a weak gun with good looks- devaluation and depreciation. The gun has to be structurally sound first.

Last edited by CaptainCrossman; July 12, 2009 at 08:40 AM.
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Old July 12, 2009, 09:07 AM   #20
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I dunno maybe it's jus' me, but if I din't like brass framed Revolvers I think I would simply not buy one...
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Old July 12, 2009, 02:05 PM   #21
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original 1850 Colt patent

what's that under the barrel/frame on the first picture at left, in this 1850 Colt patent ? looks like Sam Colt was doing the same thing, 160 years ago. so how bad can the "hot rod" pistol on GB be ?

but I already know what you fellas are gonna say, Sam Colt, what did he know, a real dummy, wasn't he, I'm suspicious, that drawing sounds a lot like someone else, blah blah, woof woof, nothing he could design or make, could ever match one of your authentic Italian $129 repro brassers, that topstrap would make it stronger but peen the frame, etc., etc., right ?]

notice the added TOPSTRAP on the Colt pistol, patented by Sam Colt himself.

notice the screws facing rearward, where the dowel pins used to be in the bottom of frame, to hold barrel on

notice the text "and that by the means of connection the barrel is firmly secured"-Sam Colt wasn't too concerned about frame being peened- he was concerned with holding the barrel on the gun, so it could be loaded for bear, and change out the cylinder



Attached Images
File Type: jpg Colt topstrap.jpg (52.2 KB, 193 views)
File Type: jpg colt topstrap text.jpg (102.5 KB, 193 views)

Last edited by CaptainCrossman; July 12, 2009 at 02:14 PM.
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Old July 12, 2009, 09:45 PM   #22
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Did anyone else catch that aside from the barrel; it looks like an 1851
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Old July 14, 2009, 03:54 AM   #23
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Here is a question

I understand that the forces released when a revolver discharges are complex and profound. Any logical person would conclude that these forces are the primary contributor to pistol wear and ultimate failure. I agree with that, not because I am smart about the physics but because it just makes sense.

Just for a second can we consider the force required to load a revolver?

I am thinking now only of the arbor on an open top revolver. Isn't it true that the vast majority of the force required to seat the bullet is applied against the arbor in a direction that would pull against the threads and other features which hold the arbor in place?

I don't know how much pressure I routinely apply to the end of the loading lever to get a ball to seat, but depending upon the specific application I would not be surprized to find that it is thirty to forty pounds. Multiply that by the mechanical advantage of the loading lever and the tensile force on the arbor could be 300 pounds..about the weight of a moderate sized engine block.

A couple of you may remember a discussion a couple of months ago in which I described a chain fire event that loosened the arbor on a brass framed .36 Pietta Sheriff's model. I no longer shoot that pistol because I am reluctant to load it for fear of further damaging the arbor. (I keep the pistol because it isn't worth anything to sell and I like the looks of it).

Every mechanical device is designed with the end of its wear cycle in mind. Pistols that are used, wear out. I am not trying to convince anyone that we break our revolvers during the loading process. I am not that smart about it.

But what is the common knowledge on the forces involved in loading the pistol?
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Old July 14, 2009, 04:03 AM   #24
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Loading a bp revolver puts most of the pressure against the recoil shield. The arbor in an open top is not a weak link and is strengthened against what little lateral pressure there is by the barrel assembly.
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Old July 14, 2009, 04:24 AM   #25
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I simply have to comment

Folks,

I have read several references to pistols that were manufactured during the civil war which are still in shootable condition. The logic is that the pistol has withstood the rigors of a long life of hard use.

I don't know that I agree that this is a logical inference.

I am not well informed on the history of military practice during the civil war. Others in the group will, I hope, have some responses.

I think the instances in which a given pistol would be loaded and fired fall into three categories:

1. During battle
2. During specified training exercises
3. At other times determined by the custodian of the weapon (plinking and playing)

Regarding the first category, what percentage of pistols were issued to soldiers who never saw action?

Regarding the second question, how much training was conducted that actually involved firing the weapon? I went three days learning about the .45 before I ever saw a cartridge, but then Navy folks generally need a lot of training on small arms.

Regarding the third category, what restrictions might have impacted a soldier's decision to just go out and do some shooting?

I have about twenty pistols and six of them have never been fired. Some are 35 years old. I am pushing sixty and hope to live another 25 years and I will never part with any of my pistols. (I just keep buying more) So some of these revolvers may never be fired.

My point is this. If you don't consider the deterioration of the metal that comes with the corrosion and aging process, the age of a pistol is less important than the number of rounds that have gone through it. And in many cases, we have no way of knowing how much the pistol was actually used.
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