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Old July 11, 2009, 03:14 PM   #26
Vanya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peetzakilla
Do you know WHY they have one or two dispatchers? Because they only have one or two emergencies in a shift, generally. Or maybe 5 or 6, but almost never enough to keep two dispatchers tied up at the same time.

The vast majority of 911 problems I have seen are in large metropolitan areas with God only knows how many dispatchers and the reason they're busy is because of people calling 911 because their neighbors stereo is too loud.
Yes, indeed. And in my semi-large metropolitan area, just TRY finding the non-emergency police number in the phone book... it's buried deep in the Gummint pages, and, I swear, wasn't there at all in one earlier edition. You'd think the phone company could be persuaded to put the regular number on Page 2, in large type...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildalaska
Testosterone is fleeting, a life sentence is 20 years. Last clear chance saves heartbreak, legal fees and misery.
Or, as Hippocrates might have put it, "Virtus brevis, carcer longa, iudicium periculosum."

Now I'll prolly get flamed for the "manhood is short" thing... oh, well.
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Old July 11, 2009, 03:20 PM   #27
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We should not confuse cowering in the best location with cowering in the furthest corner. No one is or was suggesting that you hide in the deep, dark recesses of your closet and leave the kids to fend for themselves. Making sure everyone is safe is an obvious prerequisite. If that requires temporarily taking position in a hallway while the rest of the family moves to the safety of one room then so be it. That is an entirely different tactic than saying "Well, my family is in two different rooms so I'd better charge the bad guy lest he gets in the house first.
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Old July 11, 2009, 03:50 PM   #28
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Counterpoint to peetza:

I think certain persons also made assumptions about 'charging into the house'. According to the OP, he had simply been going into the room for a beverage and observed the potential interloper, then choosing to arm himself and investigate/defuse the situation, rather effectively.
Having read this forum for a little while now, I make no assumptions about what a person may or may not do in a given situation outside of the literal ramifications of their posting. Especially so regarding 'Tactics and Training'.
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Old July 11, 2009, 04:14 PM   #29
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Quote:
Call 911. Cover and cower in bedroom with gf while shouting: I AM ARMED, I HAVE CALL THE POLICE, LEAVE OR I WILL SHOOT.
Well, now this is different. You made no mention of shouting out a warning in your first post. Of course you're better off this way.

The only reason I had disagreed with you was because if you 'cover, cower' and are silent, they'll just keep coming until they are right on top of you. Then, all that's left is confrontation.
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Old July 11, 2009, 04:31 PM   #30
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RE: the word "cower"

WA is only using the definition that suits his agenda. There are 3 or 4 others that, in fact, imply running away in fear, etc. They are in another thread here somewhere.

RE:OP

I don't know that I would have returned to my room and retrieved a firearm, but it is likely. I certainly would have grabbed my .357 and put myself between the perceived threat and my loved one.

As far as the 911 call, it happens more often than one would like to think and, contrary to the incorrect opinion of some, it has nothing to do with the number of emergencies that may happen on a shift. That notion is ridiculous. It is a matter of population and funding. Small towns have less cops and auxillary personnel because they have less people to tax for money.
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Old July 11, 2009, 05:37 PM   #31
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Quote:
WA is only using the definition that suits his agenda
Exactly. Agenda: Separate the thinkers from the thumpers.

The day you pull that trigger is gonna be the worst day of your life, rightly or wrongly. Make sure that you alleviate the misery, guilt, questioning, financial consequences, legal consequences et seq by being right

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Old July 11, 2009, 07:31 PM   #32
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Wildalaska: Cower, cover, cell, etc.....

Quote: "The day you pull the trigger is going to be the worst day of your life"....

Maybe so Ken, but so can NOT pulling the trigger end up being the worst day of your life.... When I got attacked a few years back by 5 dudes in a Hilton Hotel parking garage (they came at me from all sides and held a sharpe knife to my throat from behind, cutting my neck), I would have given anything to have a gun but I didn't carry back then. I would not have thought twice about pulling the trigger when that happened. I still feel the same today, if not more so.

Now that was out in the open and not in my home (as DGTigers experienced). When in your home, it's even more justified to shoot, (Castle Doctrine). But I do see your point about it being a traumatic experience and something you would have to carry around for a long time. So is getting shot by the bad guy or your family being attacked, etc.

The roommate is a complete dummy and is extremely lucky he is still with us. Bottom line, be prepared. Some folks may want to warn the dirt bag (with a loud yell) that you have a gun and will shoot him if he does not leave immediately. Myself, I really don't care to yell at anyone who is breaking in my home myself as it could give my position away. Whatever happens after that, is up to the decision the intruder makes from then on. So be it.
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Old July 11, 2009, 08:50 PM   #33
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Identify Threat
Judge Level of threat
Decide on Course of action
Execute correct amount of force

You've got 2 seconds.
Go
................
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Old July 11, 2009, 09:55 PM   #34
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Two Seconds:

Yep, (2 seconds), as JSmith just said. That is about all the time you will have when it actually goes down. You are lucky if the intruder is not armed, (but more than likely, he is armed and may have others with him)....

Hopefully, the time never comes, (when you have to respond to a situation like this). But when and if it does come, you won't have a lot of time to figure out what you are going to do and/or how you are going to implement your actions.

Be prepared!

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Old July 11, 2009, 10:09 PM   #35
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Hey wild you do it your way and I will do it mine. Its like arguing whats the better gun. I really don't care. I am not talking about the word cowering. I am saying even if you retreat, why would you retreat to an area you can't get out of? Why put yourself in that hole?
You assume that because people aren't you that they would screw up with all these fantasies about being heroes. Its not even about that. It is about common sense. The bad guy has outside to go. You have where? Deeper in the house? Really?
Just because you named a few additions to the same situation doesn't change anything. You can have a flashlight but it gives away your position.
I will say it again for you personally. Just because YOU think its the best option, doesn't mean it always is. You are just arguing this for the sake of being right for all of 5 seconds. Ok, your right in your head. fine. Not in other peoples heads.
What if you are on one side of the door in a room and your kids are in the other. You gonna go hide in a corner? What if you are on one floor and people are on the other. Gonna go cower then? Really? It isn't so black and white.
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Old July 11, 2009, 10:18 PM   #36
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Quote:
Separate the thinkers from the thumpers.
Every single thread, regardless of the original topic, is turning into the same discussion. The fact is that it's not always so black and white. There is a gray area and most of us thinkers have a bit of "thump".

Quote:
The day you pull that trigger is gonna be the worst day of your life, rightly or wrongly.
Nope, the day I hesitate to pull the trigger or "cower" and watch myself or loved ones get injured or killed will be the worst day of my life.
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Old July 11, 2009, 11:26 PM   #37
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Quote:
Yep, (2 seconds), as JSmith just said. That is about all the time you will have when it actually goes down. You are lucky if the intruder is not armed, (but more than likely, he is armed and may have others with him)....
Most burglars are unarmed and alone. It's entirely possible that they will be armed and not alone but that most certainly is not "most".
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Old July 12, 2009, 03:02 AM   #38
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Yes, work to improve the 911 system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DGTigers
(edited for brevity and focus)
I was also very shocked and upset that the police didn't even answer my girlfriend's call. Is it worth talking to someone about the non-response of my 911 call?
Welcome to the forum, DGTigers and thanks for sharing.

I would definitely let someone know. If your police department has a citizen's liason office, let them know. Your city council probably holds the purse strings to resolve problems with the 911 system.

Yes, work to improve the 911 system. For yourself and others.

Lost Sheep.

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Old July 12, 2009, 03:31 AM   #39
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Cowering vs Defending.

Cower: to shrink away or crouch especially for shelter from something that menaces, domineers, or dismays

Cower suggests a display of abject fear in the company of threatening or domineering people <cowering before a bully>.

Perhaps Wildaslaska might consider a more appropriate wording, such as "take a defensive position"? Of course, that does not have the cool alliteration.

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Last edited by Lost Sheep; July 12, 2009 at 03:33 AM. Reason: Caps lock accident
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Old July 12, 2009, 06:53 AM   #40
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A new scenario seems about to burst into the same old flames and arguing about the meaning of the word "cower" all over again.

WA, your point that shooting is not the first option is well taken, but picking up a pistol does mean that your testosterone has taken over your brain. OP kept his wits about him rather well, I would say, by keeping in mind the principle of identifying his target before firing. We haven't seen the floor plan of his house, so it very well may be that he was already in the best position to defend himself and the other resident(s) of the house for which he felt some responsibility. Talking about how bad he would feel with his housemate on the ground outside dead is not really productive, because the OP did use his brain and his training and the result was that he did not wind up in a regrettable situation.

Perfect doesn't happen very often - pretty darn good is, well, pretty darn good.
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Old July 12, 2009, 07:59 AM   #41
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Quote:
About the 911 call, that is unacceptable. Even goverment in many fields are trying to run on skeleton crews. Just wait as goverment gets further bogged down with more roles in our daily lives than ever, we'll see a lot more of this stuff.
I understand what you are saying its never good to do an unneeded 911 call, but in his defense at the time he made the call he did not know who it was so it was the right thing to do given the information he had.
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Old July 12, 2009, 10:29 AM   #42
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Make a lot of noise to the appropriate agencies to let them know that your call went unanswered.

It is the nature of government to only address those issues which will affect their reelection. The people who are dependent on government know the system and how to get their benefits. You as a tax payer are entitled to emergency services that work in a reasonable manner. If you do not let them know, there is no chance of improvement. Even if you let them know the chance of improvement is small.

Maybe a call to the local TV station or a letter to the editor might improve the system if a direct approach to the government does not yield improvement.

The amount of assets which politicians allocate to the 911 system is proportional to what their perception of the need is. The more they hear about failures the more money they tend to put into it. If there are no complaints then they assume it is working, and might even cut the budget.

20 years ago I was with a sheriff's department in Mississippi that only had one dispatcher that also took the 911 calls. The dispatcher also ran the computer checks on the license plates, VINs, and driver's licenses we called in too. That County only had a population of about 40,000 and over 800 square miles and only two deputies on patrol at any given time. Most of the population was concentrated in one city with about 30,000 that had it own police department. The deputies got paid $500 every two weeks. Our radios only covered about 95% of the county. Small budget.
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Old July 12, 2009, 10:33 AM   #43
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Quote:
WA, your point that shooting is not the first option is well taken, but picking up a pistol does mean that your testosterone has taken over your brain. OP kept his wits about him rather well, I would say, by keeping in mind the principle of identifying his target before firing.
For many folks, the gun makes them feel invincible and/or manly. You see it hear all the time. Look at the vitriol tossed at the CCC rule. Look at some of the responses here

The OP went back into the bedroom to retrieve his shotgun and then left to confront the intruder. All of the correct steps he took in IDing the target and not shooting could have been done from a place of cover whilst shouting I've called 911, get out of here I'm armed and going to shoot. That would have permitted verbal response without the potential of gesture misinterpretation.

But hey, folks would rather screech and puff their chests than analyze stuff with a goal to ensuring the best possible outcome.

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Old July 12, 2009, 11:16 AM   #44
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Quote:
When I got attacked a few years back by 5 dudes in a Hilton Hotel parking garage (they came at me from all sides and held a sharpe knife to my throat from behind, cutting my neck), I would have given anything to have a gun but I didn't carry back then. I would not have thought twice about pulling the trigger when that happened. I still feel the same today, if not more so.

Well now, this explains a lot, you were once victimized, and have now prepared yourself for the worst, that is fine. You have taken on the mindset that "I will not be a victim again" and that is also fine...to a point. If you react out of fear of that past event, and act inappropriately, that night in the garage may turn out to be one of the better of your days.

Quote:
The roommate is a complete dummy and is extremely lucky he is still with us.
There is no question this was a stupid move, and if he were your roommate, he would likely not have been so lucky considering this;

Quote:
When in your home, it's even more justified to shoot, (Castle Doctrine)
And This;

Quote:
Some folks may want to warn the dirt bag (with a loud yell) that you have a gun and will shoot him if he does not leave immediately. Myself, I really don't care to yell at anyone who is breaking in my home myself as it could give my position away.
In the OP's case, his warning not only got the "dirt bag" AKA: his roommate, to leave, but come back and announce himself. Had he remained silent, and the roommate advanced, well, likely could have gone badly. The OP was prepared, but used some common sense to attempt to "identify" the threat.

Quote:
Whatever happens after that, is up to the decision the intruder makes from then on
So, under the presumption that you would not announce that you are armed, and are gonna wait
Quote:
Yep, (2 seconds)
Then take action, how would this situation have played out at your house ? Would you be able to justify (in your own mind) that you had killed your roommate ?
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Old July 12, 2009, 11:31 AM   #45
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OutCast: Your response (as usual).....

Well OutCast, at least you are consistent.

I would not expect your response to be any different than your normal (give the bad guy a break) slant on these type scenarios. A lot of us out there look at these home invasions a lot different than you do........
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Old July 12, 2009, 11:33 AM   #46
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Quote:
The OP went back into the bedroom to retrieve his shotgun and then left to confront the intruder. All of the correct steps he took in IDing the target and not shooting could have been done from a place of cover whilst shouting I've called 911, get out of here I'm armed and going to shoot. That would have permitted verbal response without the potential of gesture misinterpretation.
No Ken, that would make too much sense, and, some seem to think, takes away some sort of imagined "tactical advantage" by possibly "giving away your position".

If I am in a defensive position, I really do not see that I have lost any tactical advantage by announcing I am armed, aware of the BG's presence, and am prepared to shoot if necessary. I have just drawn a line in the sand, nothing more. If you are in a combat situation, outside, you may keep a tactical advantage by staying silent, inside , that advantage is moot.

Ask any LEO, or Soldier, or Marine, who has experience with clearing a building, they will tell you that ; Even knowing which room an armed person is in does not lessen that persons advantage to defend from inside by much, if any. Unless you are defending against an overwhelming force (SRT, large offensive force) You have lost no advantage, and might well diffuse the situation before violence erupts.
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Old July 12, 2009, 11:42 AM   #47
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Quote:
A lot of us out there look at these home invasions a lot different than you do........

We are not discussing a "home invasion" We are discussing the OP's response to his roommates bad decision making. As someone pointed out, this is not black/white, but has a shade of gray. Now, care to answer my question ?


Quote:
I would not expect your response to be any different than your normal (give the bad guy a break) slant on these type scenarios.

This has nothing to do with "giving the BG a break" It's about identifying a threat before you pull the trigger, you remember, one of the "Rules" ? Give yourself a break.
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Old July 12, 2009, 11:42 AM   #48
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The 911 system only works well if the community has a normally high IQ.Every phone system has only so many operating lines and people screening the calls.Having 100's of calls from people asking if there is school today because of snowfall can wreak havoc on a system.Happens all the time.
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Old July 12, 2009, 09:49 PM   #49
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OutCast: "Give yourself a break" quote:

Yadda, Yadda, Yadda. The same old story. Don't do this and you shouldn't do that, etc., etc.

You need to give yourself a break and open YOUR eyes. You don't have all the answers my friend, (any more than I do). I am trying to explain about how I would handle these type scenarios in my home.

Try reading your own personal quote (at the bottom of each of your posts),
"Without freedom of THOUGHT, there can be no such thing as wisdom".... Exactly right! Other folks have ideas too.
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Old July 12, 2009, 10:08 PM   #50
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Problem is, some other folks personal ideas...

... would wind them up in prison, based on the things they say on this forum.

A lot of us know people who've startled friends and relatives when coming home unexpectedly. Probably more than a few of us have broken into our own homes, having mislaid keys or locked them in the car. Probably more than a few of us did this not wanting to wake up sleeping family, and not realizing quite how much noise we'd make raising that window that's never locked...

Probably more than a few of us have had roommates or relatives come home drunk, and try to enter the wrong doors.

Probably more than a few of us have had strangers mistake our place for our neighbor's down the road, with whom they are supposed to stay.

Shooting at things that go bump at the night is risky. Some folks seem pretty glib about the concept. Being prepared to defend doesn't mean you have to itch to pull a trigger.
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