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Old July 9, 2009, 08:45 PM   #76
Nnobby45
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Quote:
Read the above link, let it sink in. Then ask yourself if the Combat Mindset is unnecessary.
Interesting that a high % of citizens who survive deadly force encounters have no training with re: to tactics or mindset.

Often times, the victim, or their loved one, was injured by their assailant before they even remembered they had a gun--- which they eventually got to. As often as not, they had a .32ACP, .25 Auto, .38 Special, .22 RF, etc. They didn't use cover and likely didn't have time to use it, anyway. Reloads are almost non existent. Many fired out of fear while they, or a loved one, were already under assault.

Yes, they're own lack of awareness and training allowed things to get to that point.


You can read Chris Bird's "Thank God I Had A Gun" or John Waters' books about such citizens. While Waters' books are well done with regards to the details of the incidents, including the tactics used by criminals, his frequent faux pas related to the opertion of firearms is a little embarassilng at times. Still worth reading.

While ordinary citizens operating on pure adrenalin and no training prevail more often than one might think, they only emphasize the huge advantages of proper training and tactics. And also awareness of tricks folks use to gain entrance to your home, or attack you on the street.

As far as mind set is concerned, some of the citizens mentioned above survived because they had it. They sure didn't survive because of training.

Last edited by Nnobby45; July 9, 2009 at 08:52 PM.
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Old July 9, 2009, 08:56 PM   #77
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It's funny how most people believe protecting themselves is carrying a gun and all is solved. I preached situational awareness to my ex for years. She just never got it. So many times the little voice in my head say this is a bad situation or a bad place to be and I acted on that instinct. Avoiding trouble is a successful engagement, having to react usually means a failure in tactics somewhere.

My current girlfriend is a great believer in details and is very good at situational awareness and listening to that same warning voice in her head. Add to that the fact she is a great shot and she is better prepared to rotect herself than many are.

The most curious thing to me about the original post is how did such a large group sneak up on this family? They had to be making a ton of noise. the lesson learned should be don't be so oblivious to your surroundings.
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Old July 9, 2009, 09:07 PM   #78
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How did a crowd sneak up?

They wouldn't have to sneak up. The family was at a fireworks display on the 4th. They were unlucky enough to be in an area where a group passing through was hostile. Nothing would particularly stand out about lots of people transiting after a fireworks display.

You could just as well ask why the crowd out celebrating Mardi Gras in Seattle in 2001 didn't realize a bunch of people in their midst would start a major brawl. Sometimes, when things start, you are already in the epicenter.

I'm all for situational awareness. However, unless you avoid all crowds, there is no way to guarantee a brawl won't break out in any given crowd event you may attend.

Note: In Georgia, where CCW laws are very liberal, I cannot legally carry at an event such as a 4th of July gathering. FWIW.
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Old July 9, 2009, 09:33 PM   #79
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Sorry, I am not buying that. If I am at a celebration or event and a crowd is moving directly my way I am on alert, whether they look dangerous or not. There is a difference between transitioning places and pruposely moving on someone or invading their space. If a large group is moving in my direction my radar goes on alert and I begin looking for a reason and then a way out.

I don't have the choice of concealed carry in Wisconsin so for me being hyper aware is really my only defense when I am in public.
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Old July 9, 2009, 09:41 PM   #80
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You don't have to buy it...

... but you can see similar situations on the news, any given week. So, it happens.

Funny thing about those who think "it can never happen to me." They tend to be grossly unprepared when "it" happens.
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Old July 9, 2009, 09:46 PM   #81
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Where in what I posted did i say it couldn't happen to me? In fact it has happened, the difference in both situations is that I ended up walking away unscathed. Luck of the draw.

I just don't understand standing there unaware of a group of roughly 50 people moving in my direction and not taking defensive actions or simply leaving. Waiting to see what they want does nothing but make you a victim.
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Old July 9, 2009, 09:48 PM   #82
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Matolman1: Excellent point

Matolman1, (as Sportbob mentioned earlier in his #11 post to your thread)
"you make far too much sense to post opinions on this forum"...

Its true what Sportbob said: Each and everytime someone posts comments about taking a stand (TO NOT BE A VICTIM), the same old critics come out of the woodwork to demonize your suggestions. It has happened to me numerous times and I just let it roll off my back. My attitude is to always defend myself and more importantly, defend my family. That will always come first and the rest of it can take the back burner as far as I'm concerned.

Each of us should do what they think best in a crisis situation (within reasonable legal boundries of course) when you feel your life and/or family's life is threatened.

Just a note: 50 teenagers with fists and feet can kill you easily. They don't need a gun. Just ask the truck driver who was almost killed by the thugs in L.A. (when they drug him out of the truck and beat him to within an inch of his life) during the big riot a few years back. Having a gun (with extra ammo), sure as hell may have made a difference in that situation. No, you may not have enough ammo to take them all out but its sure better than just getting your butt stomped to death for doing nothing. Besides, the threat of getting shot more than likely will stop most folks and is sure better than than just standing there and taking whatever they dish out to you.

I also agree: What the heck does lightning strikes really got to do with anything? Not too bright an analogy in my opinion. Bottom line: You tell the story! But you gotta be alive in order to do that.
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Old July 9, 2009, 09:51 PM   #83
MLeake
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Noticing 50 people

If there are thirty or forty people around, a group of 50 moving is noticeable.

If there are several hundred to a few thousand around, which is typical of 4th of July fireworks displays, or any number of beach events, or holiday street festivals, a group of 50 will barely register.

It's not like 50 people walking through your neighborhood on a Tuesday night.
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Old July 9, 2009, 09:52 PM   #84
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I've visited NYC any number of times...

... If I tried to leave the area every time 50 or so people walked my way, I could never stand around on the sidewalk on Broadway, 5th Avenue, etc. It all depends on the background.
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Old July 9, 2009, 10:05 PM   #85
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Look, you can play this as cutesy as you want and pretend you don't know what I mean if it makes you feel better.

There is a clear difference between 50 people moving in the same direction and 50 people purposely closing on someone or closing on a group of people. If nothing else the facial expressions should tell you something. Usually, a group moving through a crowd that has no intent other than to get from point A to point B does not focus on one specific person or group as they pass through. They are generally looking for the fastest easiest way out of the crowd to their destination.

So pretend you don't understand what I mean if you need to, I can't say it any clearer than that.
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Old July 9, 2009, 10:10 PM   #86
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I understand exactly what you mean...

... but your point is only valid if they decide to target you BEFORE closing. If you happen to already be in the middle of a group, and then 1 or 2 idiots decide it would be fun to hassle you, and then their friends start jumping in...

I think this is a lot closer scenario to what happened to the victims in this case. I'm pretty sure ALL of us would notice a mob in chase and attack mode. But most instances I've seen in the news, and one or two I found myself in, developed in the manner I described. Crowd was not a threat, until a small subset of the crowd triggered events.

Sorry if you think that's cutesy, but I find your interpretation to be unlikely in the extreme.
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Old July 9, 2009, 10:17 PM   #87
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Quote:
Each and everytime someone posts comments about taking a stand (TO NOT BE A VICTIM), the same old critics come out of the woodwork to demonize your suggestions.
Naw its more like everytime the testosterone gets flowing over some incident in the newspaper and the sheepdogs come out to remind us that life in the USA is more dangerous than West Beirut, us sheeple try to bring folks back to earth.

But then again and regardless, some folks, for ego needs, want to walk around suburbia in body armour packin MP5s and ready for mobs of teenagers or Zombies or whatever

Me? No self respecting mob would ever attack a fat guy in a Hello Kitty Thong and pink platform pompom mules

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Old July 9, 2009, 10:30 PM   #88
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See what I mean!

Who knows Wild, the streets of America (nowadays) may be more dangerous than West Beirut... The city where I live in here in Florida is the murder capital of the state!

By the way, its not testosterone that makes us want to defend our life and family, its our obligation and our duty! No MP5's, just a Glock 21 this week.
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Old July 9, 2009, 10:39 PM   #89
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The city where I live in here in Florida is the murder capital of the state!
Maybe you have too many guns there...look at NYC's crime rate

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Old July 9, 2009, 10:39 PM   #90
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MLeake...

And I made it clear my intent is to never let anyone into my circle of comfort without seeing them and attempting to guess their motive for being there. I have been in mob situations and walked away both times unscathed.

Just because you find my idea different from yours does not make it wrong.
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Old July 9, 2009, 10:45 PM   #91
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FyredUp...

I was in Seattle when the mob violence broke out at Mardi Gras in 2001. My then-girlfriend was working publicity for Seagram's liquor promotions in Pioneer Square. For one thing, everywhere you went, the sidewalks were crowded. You couldn't possibly tell if a bunch of people moving en masse were a homogenous group, or just swept along in the ebb and flow of the crowd.

When violence broke out, it started with a fairly small group, and then it exploded. A lot of people tried to leave the area, but could not because they couldn't break through the crowd. So, at first nobody could tell what was happening. Then, when people could tell, they still couldn't leave very easily.

In another example, that same former gf was leaving a bar one night, in company with some police officer friends of ours, who were in uniform. A group that was in the parking lot outside the bar suddenly erupted into a brawl, as she and the two cops were in the middle of the lot. She caught an errant punch to the face, and came home with a swollen cheek and a bloody nose. The crowd in the parking lot was nothing unusual, didn't raise her hackles or those of the two cops, until somebody threw a punch and a bunch of idiots joined in.

It's nice that in your experiences you had both ample warning and avenues of escape. I'm here to tell you that this will quite often not be the case.
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Old July 10, 2009, 12:05 AM   #92
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Well, first of all, the last place you would find me would be at a Mardi Gras Celebration. Why go looking for trouble? A bunch of drunken out of control idiots looking for a reason to act like *******s. No thank you.

Walking thru a parking lot of a bar at night, with 2 uniformed police officers, and they see a group in the parking lot. You expect me to believe they had no indication of any trouble? And they were blindsided by the fight? Okay those cops are either fools or oblivious if they would walk into the midst of a group of people in a parking lot of a bar, at night.

Both of these incidents have plenty of indications of trouble...IF the participants had been paying attention.
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Old July 10, 2009, 12:06 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donn N
"You're joking, right?"
Actually, Donn, no.

I was noting that this particular set of circumstances was pretty close to a 'no-win' situation. Firing on unarmed teenagers might very well drive them off, however, (a) it might not; and (b) even when you 'win', you lose.

I was also agreeing with the logic of Vanya and Peetzakilla as Vanya described it in post #14:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanya
"According to the story linked in the OP, this was a mob of teenagers, attacking with fists and feet. The outcome might have been better if Mr. Marshall, or someone else in his party, had had a gun at all, regardless of its capacity or number of extra magazines. Or, as Peetzakilla points out, it might have been worse... especially if some in the mob had been carrying as well.

What doesn't seem likely is that having 31, or 46, rounds available, as opposed to 16, would be the deciding factor here. If Mr. Marshall had pulled a gun and used it, the mob of teenagers would either have been discouraged right then and "beat feet," or they would have continued to attack, perhaps with their own (previously concealed) weapons. If a mob keeps coming in this situation, a single shooter is most likely going to be overrun no matter how much ammunition he's lugging around -- and his whole party may be at much greater risk if weapons are now involved on both sides.

There's no predicting the outcome, and there's no sure defense in this very improbable situation..."
With respect, I don't know how much time you've spent in courtrooms. (And I'm not an legal expert.) But a good lawyer, if the AG decides to prosecute, would just take Marshall apart had he opened fire, and no matter how bruised Marshall's life may appear today - I suspect that had he shot and killed a number of the unarmed teenagers, (or paralyzed them,) his life would today be considerably more 'complex'.

You made an excellent point when you asked whether anyone was annoyed that this (hasn't yet been) classified as a hate crime - and that can be spun both ways. If a white guy had opened fire on a crowd of unarmed black teenagers, and had perhaps killed 3 or 4 of them, maybe put 1 in a wheelchair for life, and sent 2 or 3 more to the hospital with gunshot wounds - you don't need a law degree to know that that guy's life would be a steaming puddle of dung shortly thereafter. Rev. Al Sharpton would only be the first in the conga-line of haters who would lead the circus to your front door.

As Peetza argues, there simply isn't any guarantee in a situation like this one that producing a firearm is going to resolve the situation in your favor. As Vanya notes, it could in fact lead to significantly more risk to your own loved ones if the crowd returns fire.

That's why I described it as a tough call.

Marshall was never knocked to the ground (per the report). He willingly 'waded in to the fight' when his friend was struck by one of the teens (e.g. he himself was not struck, his friend was and he then intentionally confronted and engaged the teens): "They said it started when one teen, without any words or warning, blindsided and assaulted Marshall's friend as he stood outside with the others. When Marshall, 39, jumped in, he found himself being attacked by the growing group of teens."

A lawyer might point out that this is not necessarily a defensive act.

Had Marshall then produced a pistol and shot and killed a number of the unarmed teens, he would need to explain at which precise point he felt his life to be in danger and why, etc. and no matter how he explained it, in the press it would still read that a white guy initially jumped into the fight, and then shot and killed a number of unarmed black teenagers.

There is just no way this is going to end well.....

No matter how many rounds Marshall carried with him.

A big cannister of pepper-spray may have been useful, or possibly a Taser, but I don't see how lighting these kids up would have produced a "more optimal" outcome for Marshall. It would have been a tough call, either way.

Just the humble opinion of a guy who has spent more time in courtrooms than he ever wanted to...

Last edited by Doc Intrepid; July 10, 2009 at 12:12 AM.
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Old July 10, 2009, 01:20 AM   #94
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I would just like to point out that it takes less then a second to pick up a mag from a pocket/mag holder, and reload. If you aren't shooting by the time they are within that 20-30 foot range, then I don't know. If this whole thing about not being able to reload was true, why haven't gunmen in large population areas been stopped in the midst of reloading? Because it takes less than a second.
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Old July 10, 2009, 03:18 AM   #95
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Murder capital of Florida?

That must be Jacksonville? Below, quote from an other forum...

Quote:
I am not trying to put a pretty light on this...if you are one of those 30 victims or are related to them it's terrible. But get real...30 out of 2 million+ people in the greater Orlando area! Almost all these crimes took place among people involved in shady activities in bad areas of the city.
That is kind of true, yes? And Drugs are the basic catalyst for 90% of the 30 murders? Most of the incidents in the late night, early AM?

Now as a 73 year (transplanted) old Brit, who has never taken a puff of drugs, or a needle except to donate blood, what is wrong with 16 to 21 year olds that they need a nose full of illegal substances, to "Feel good man!" Such activity's just so happen to peak, late nights, early AM!

My lovely Wife likes live firework displays! Not me, the bangs are caused by black powder don't you know, and the big show in Washington DC (on TV) seen on our 47" TV did not have any trauma attached, thank you very much.

I carry a pistol because I can, and just in case, the same reason I carry a spare wheel, and vehicle, and fire insurance.
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Old July 10, 2009, 07:29 AM   #96
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I carry a pistol because I can, and just in case, the same reason I carry a spare wheel, and vehicle, and fire insurance.
that is exactly what the gun is
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Old July 10, 2009, 08:48 AM   #97
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Thanks matolman1 for posting

I do appreciate all your posts. I am a retired woman and do not seem to have the testosterone problem the others keep mentioning.

Over 40 years ago I was a target of 2 bad guys, survived thanks to husband with shotgun, and bought my first gun from another state because local sheriff did not believe in women defending themselves.

I now have a CCW and practice every week on free women's range day - bless their hearts. I carry most of the time; I cannot in daycare area when I pick up grandkids about once a week. I certainly do not have the strength to fight (never did) or now run away. I will shoot and if it so works out, die while defending myself and others. I did agree with all your posts. Thanks again.
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Old July 10, 2009, 08:50 AM   #98
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"flash mobs"

Here are a some more incidents of this type, which have happened recently; what's interesting is that some in Philadelphia appear to be coordinated through the racially-oriented "ourspace" site:

Quote:
Man arrested in 'flash mob' beating

By DAN GERINGER
Philadelphia Daily News

geringd@phillynews.com 215-854-5961

Police have made an arrest in what one detective called the "vicious" and "brutal" beating of a 53-year-old maintenance mechanic who was bicycling home from work during the May 30 "flash mob" attacks on South Street.

Stephen Lyde, 21, was one of eight males who knocked the victim off his bike and "brutally beat him to unconsciousness," leaving him with internal injuries and skull, rib and facial fractures, said Capt. Laurence D. Nodiff, commander of South Detective Division.

They robbed him and left him to "bleed in the street," Nodiff said.

The victim was on life support at Hahnemann University Hospital for days, Nodiff said, and two weeks after the attack, he remains hospitalized in stable condition.

Lyde was charged with aggravated assault, robbery and related offenses. In 2005 he was charged with aggravated assault and robbery, but the charges were dismissed, according to online court records.

Praising the "hard investigative work" of the eight detectives and warrant officers who stood with him yesterday at 1st District Police Headquarters, Nodiff said that police expect to make additional arrests soon.

No severe injuries were reported in initial media accounts of youthful "flash mobs" - numbering in the thousands and organized via cell phones and online social networks - that overran South Street, terrorizing pedestrians and motorists.

A city employee and a taxi driver incurred minor injuries when they were pulled out of their cars and assaulted. About the same time, a swarm of teens looted a convenience store at Broad and Catharine streets, according to video surveillance released days after the near-riot.

But the case of the beaten cyclist - by far the most severe incident - was first brought to public attention this week by Daily News columnist Ronnie Polaneczky, who detailed the man's fight for his life in Hahnemann's intensive care unit after suffering a frontal-lobe injury.

Yesterday, the mother of the man, whom Polaneczky referred to as "John," said that she was pleased about the arrest.

"We feel great that the cops got him and hope they get the rest of them," she said. The police "need to get them off the streets and keep them off the streets.

"You don't want to be a prisoner in your own home while the riff-raff run the streets."

John's close friend, Marcia Houston-Leslie, said: "I am glad. You don't want crime like this to go unpaid for. If people do this to someone, they need to be held accountable for it."

"The police have been very wonderful," John's mother said. "They have called us and been up to see [John] and really been on top of this."

Capt. Nodiff said he hopes this arrest sends a message to those who assaulted people during the May 30 "flash mob" turmoil.

Nodiff said that on South Street last weekend, extra police were deployed and no serious incidents were reported. Again this weekend, he said, police will be out in force continuing to show "zero tolerance" for violence.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/47984426.html
New York:

Quote:
A white Valley Stream man remained in critical condition Monday after police said he was beaten by a group of young African-American assailants in what authorities are investigating as a possible hate crime.

The 30-year-old victim, a Long Island Rail Road worker, was not identified by police, who said the attack was unprovoked.

The victim was repeatedly punched and kicked in the face, head and body at about 12:30 a.m. Sunday by a group of about 12 to 15 male and female assailants, said Nassau police Det. Sgt. Anthony Repalone. The man had gone outside to move his car off the street during a July Fourth party when he was attacked, Repalone said.

He sustained a concussion and fractured eye socket, Repalone said. "There is no motive at this time," Repalone said Monday.


Investigators are looking to see whether the assault was motivated by race, he said.

"A witness heard someone in the crowd make a comment that the police will follow up to determine whether or not this attack was racially motivated," Repalone said. "It's too early at this time to make that determination."

Repalone would not describe what was said that could lead police to determine that the man was beaten because of his race.

Monday, a woman, who did not want to be identified but said the victim was her brother, said he has multiple fractures in his face and jaw.

She said a fight in the group of teenagers had started before her brother went to move his car.

"They were having a conflict," she said. "I assume maybe they thought he was getting involved."

The mother's 911 call was picked up by New York City emergency services and redirected to Nassau County, Repalone said. The call was disconnected and the Nassau operator called back, Repalone said, but was unable to reach anyone.

The man did not seek medical treatment, and his family did not call police again until more than 13 hours after the attack, Repalone said. Police said the man and his family may have underestimated the extent of his injuries. He was eventually taken to South Nassau Communities Hospital in Oceanside, where police said he remained in critical but stable condition Monday.

He parked his car in the driveway and that's when the teenagers approached him, police said.
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/cr...,2473140.story
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Old July 10, 2009, 08:53 AM   #99
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Thanks for the info OP. Its good evidence that mob attacks do happen. Not sure if having a gun would have helped him or not it really depends if the mob was willing to sacrifice a few people to get in close or not.
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Old July 10, 2009, 09:18 AM   #100
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You have to assume that they are going to kill you. Shoot the leaders of the mob and the rest will flee...I hope.

If we all carried guns this would not happen, kids would be in school instead of out on the street, and we would all speak the king's English and be polite to each other.
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