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Old July 9, 2009, 04:16 PM   #51
Wildalaska
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Not the fuzzy wuzzies? You know they broke the square!
Fuzzy Wuzzies were Hadendoa, not Hottentotts...

O my Gawd.......FUZZY WUZZY!!!!!!! Where is my Solar Topee! I must emote! Emote emote emote

WE'VE FOUGHT with many men acrost the seas,
An' some of 'em was brave an' some was not:
The Paythan an' the Zulu an' Burmese;
But the Fuzzy was the finest o' the lot.
We never got a ha'porth's change of 'im:
'E squatted in the scrub an' 'ocked our 'orses,
'E cut our sentries up at Suakim,
An' 'e played the cat an' banjo with our forces.

So 'ere's to you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, at your 'ome in the Soudan;
You're a pore benighted 'eathen but a first-class fightin' man;
We gives you your certificate, an' if you want it signed
We'll come an' 'ave a romp with you whenever you're inclined.

We took our chanst among the Khyber 'ills,
The Boers knocked us silly at a mile,
The Burman give us Irriwaddy chills,
An' a Zulu impi dished us up in style:
But all we ever got from such as they
Was pop to what the Fuzzy made us swaller;
We 'eld our bloomin' own, the papers say,
But man for man the Fuzzy knocked us 'oller.

Then 'ere's to you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, an' the missis and the kid;
Our orders was to break you, an' of course we went an' did.
We sloshed you with Martinis, an' it wasn't 'ardly fair;
But for all the odds agin' you, Fuzzy-Wuz, you broke the square.

'E 'asn't got no papers of 'is own,
'E 'asn't got no medals nor rewards,
So we must certify the skill 'e's shown
In usin' of 'is long two-'anded swords:
When 'e's 'oppin' in an' out among the bush
With 'is coffin-'eaded shield an' shovel-spear,
An 'appy day with Fuzzy on the rush
Will last an 'ealthy Tommy for a year.

So 'ere's to you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, an' your friends which are no more,
If we 'adn't lost some messmates we would 'elp you to deplore;
But give an' take's the gospel, an' we'll call the bargain fair,
For if you 'ave lost more than us, you crumpled up the square!

'E rushes at the smoke when we let drive,
An', before we know, 'e's 'ackin' at our 'ead;
'E's all 'ot sand an' ginger when alive,
An' 'e's generally shammin' when 'e's dead.
'E's a daisy, 'e's a ducky, 'e's a lamb!
'E's a injia-rubber idiot on the spree,
'E's the on'y thing that doesn't give a damn
For a Regiment o' British Infantree!

So 'ere's to you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, at your 'ome in the Soudan;
You're a pore benighted 'eathen but a first-class fightin' man;
An' 'ere's to you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, with your 'ayrick 'ead of 'air -
You big black boundin' beggar - for you broke a British square!


WildcorblimeyAlaska ™
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Old July 9, 2009, 04:24 PM   #52
markj
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ONLY 31 rounds?
A good marksman will "line up" his targets allowing him to get 3 or 4 at a time with one single shot.

In this scenario, I tried to find the ultimate CCW to protect me and anyone close at the time of the event. I decided on a belt fed .50 but the casings keep tickleing me when placed in the IWB CC holster I had specially made. Maybe I need to put the belt in the back of my pants? ........


Now if that group of guys came upon us on our 4th celebration they would have faced 4 large dogs already upset over the firecrackers and would love the chance to bite back.......
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Old July 9, 2009, 04:24 PM   #53
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The rokkitz didn't get him inside the house...

The Illuminati did, and BLAMED it on the rokkitz.
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Old July 9, 2009, 04:25 PM   #54
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"A good marksman will "line up" his targets allowing him to get 3 or 4 at a time with one single shot."

That's COD:WAW Nazi Zombies.

Let's stick with something that vaguely resembles reality...
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Old July 9, 2009, 04:26 PM   #55
Donn_N
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It seems to me that the main point of the OP was as an example of why one should carry copious amounts of spare ammunition. In that respect, I would opine that it fails as such an example. If drawing your weapon and firing does not immediately disperse the crowd (in which case you need no reloads) and it becomes necessary to shoot your weapon until it is empty, the odds that you will be able to reload before the mob overwhelms you are pretty much zero. One guy with one handgun against a determined mob of 50 is dead no matter how many reloads he is carrying.

However, the thread seems to have morphed into a discussion more about using a gun against a crowd. Personally, if I have 50 ****** off teenagers attacking me and retreat is not an option, I'll have little problem (morally, that is) drawing my weapon and firing. I'm not naive enough to think that it would guarantee a more positive outcome, but I think it would be better than laying there in the fetal position until I took a fatal blow to the head. It is just pure luck Marshall survived.

In this particular case, if I were Marshall, I think I'd be looking for some new friends as well since they seemed to have treated the whole thing as a spectator sport.

Anybody else annoyed that this isn't being classified as a hate crime?
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Old July 9, 2009, 04:30 PM   #56
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One reason that I don't envy him is that it would certainly seem to me (in the calm of retrospection) that he was never in imminent danger of losing his life (or the lives of his family).

He was facing an angry crowd of teenagers, yes, but none of them apparently had or brandished or even displayed a firearm, a stick, a golf club, a ball bat, or any weapon at all, as far as I can tell.
You're joking, right?
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Old July 9, 2009, 04:40 PM   #57
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Anybody else annoyed that this isn't being classified as a hate crime?
Yes, Donn N, I brought that up and it didn't attract a single comment. With this group, I am pretty sure that political correctness is not the reason.

I agree with you on your comments on reloading, too.

One of my concerns in this situation would be having the gun taken away from me and used on myself or the other innocents nearby. Again, I don't think I am good enough to rapid-fire through a magazine, reload, and rapid-fire through the second that I usually carry - I'm not sure anyone really is. If a first shot or two doesn't make the others run, there is a real danger that I will be overwhelmed and lose the gun.

So, am I better off not pulling it and hoping that concealment holds? Or, to take the other extreme, is this one of the rare instances where a warning shot or two is a good idea?

I'm still say that I am not sure there is an excellent tactic for this situation. Like some other recent posts, I have to think that facing 50 hostile people who eventually beat a man down and put him in an ICU for 5 days would constitute a justifiable use of lethal force to defend oneself. But legally justifiable and good tactics aren't always the same. It seems like whatever you do in this situation you are going to have to get a little lucky to get out of it.
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Old July 9, 2009, 04:53 PM   #58
Wait, I'm Reloadin'
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capacity problem could have been solved if wife and two adult buddies had ccw along with him, and covered each other! this is too much to think about in the USA right now people. gosh its sad what might:barf: happen
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Old July 9, 2009, 04:59 PM   #59
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Here's a practical question from a small town Iowa boy: how do "dozens" of angry young men flood into your back yard without you noticing? Even through half a bottle of Maker's Mark, I can still tell when things are approaching (I know from years of camping).

I'd be pretty tempted to use the gun just to make space to get the girls inside and bunker down (it says they were at someone's house). That way I really would have access to hundreds of rounds of ammunition and lots of firearms.

Weird stuff happens I guess. I'll be on the lookout for angry mobs and Nazi zombies now too.
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Old July 9, 2009, 05:01 PM   #60
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Anybody else annoyed that this isn't being classified as a hate crime?
Based on the article cited, there isn't enough information to say whether it was or not. The one quoted reference to a remark about race doesn't seem sufficient, and we don't know who the teenagers who made up the mob were, where they came from, or what set them off.
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Old July 9, 2009, 05:02 PM   #61
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Based on the article cited, there isn't enough information to say whether it was or not.
That may be true, and I doubt we want to go down this road with this thread, but if the races had been reversed it would have been ASSUMED to be a hate crime unless shown otherwise.
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Old July 9, 2009, 05:09 PM   #62
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Matolman1

I Sir, agree with you. Mr.Marshall did not only have the right but the responsibility to protect his family. I will not go in to the stats of the presence of a gun acting as a deterent. Reading some of the opposing posts make me realize that posting on this forum does not make one a supporter of the second ammendment.
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Old July 9, 2009, 05:17 PM   #63
Brian Pfleuger
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It never ceases to amaze me how people can take the simple, obvious, common sense argument that having a firearm does not automatically make a bad situation better and twist it into "not supporting the second amendment".

Yes, I am clearly a person who does not support the second amendment. Yep, me, the guy who is wearing a gun as I type this, is first in line to buy a hunting license on the first day it's possible every year, writes to my senators and assemblymen in opposition to anti-gun legislation... obviously I don't support the right to keep and bear arms.

How could I be so blind? It's not awareness that matters. It's not possible that having a gun could turn into a bad thing, or make a bad situation worse. A firearm is the end-all, be-all of personal protection, smarts don't matter, de-escalation doesn't matter, don't try to evade and elude, ENGAGE and DESTROY! You hold the weapon of life and death in your hands! Wield it as a mighty god!

Does that sound better? More in line with the second amendment? Do I sound more prepared? More willing to defend my family and property?


Let's get over the rhetorical nonsense shall we? Let's take a real, common sense look at some of the defensive shootings with which we're all so familiar and truly ask ourselves "Were these guys better off because they had a gun?"

How about the pharmacist up on murder charges?
How about Fish who went to jail for killing an unarmed man?
How about Tyler, TX where a man tried to be intervene and ended up dead.
How about the guys that chased a guy out of their house and shot him, who may now be charged with murder?

Are they all better off because they had a gun? Can we not concede that it's possible to make things WORSE with a defensive firearm?
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Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; July 9, 2009 at 05:26 PM.
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Old July 9, 2009, 05:20 PM   #64
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzWSoFszn9U

The power of a mob.

The people behind scatter, the determined individuals win.

No comment on the right or wrong.
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Old July 9, 2009, 05:34 PM   #65
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A met a guy who was carrying a Ruger 9mm with its 15 rounds and TWO 15 round spare mags. He said he never used to carry so much ammo but he stopped to help a motorist one night and as he got out of his car to walk up and offer help a group of guys (he said 7-8) walked out of the woods straight towards him. They were armed with tire iron, shovel and whatever else. He drew his weapon and backed up to his car and escaped. He said he'll always carry more ammo in the future. I told him that if he shot the first couple I doubt the rest would have been motivated to keep coming but I do see his point. Personally I like my M&P with one back up mag (25 rounds) or my P7 with two spare mags (25 rounds) sometimes with just one spare mag in my pocket which is still 17 rounds. I feel pretty well armed with that.

Heck I even carry two spare mags with my LCP for 18 rounds.

I guess if 50 violent teens attacked I would desperately wish for more though.

Last edited by jon_in_wv; July 9, 2009 at 05:39 PM.
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Old July 9, 2009, 06:15 PM   #66
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Quote:
A met a guy who was carrying a Ruger 9mm with its 15 rounds and TWO 15 round spare mags. He said he never used to carry so much ammo but he stopped to help a motorist one night and as he got out of his car to walk up and offer help a group of guys (he said 7-8) walked out of the woods straight towards him. They were armed with tire iron, shovel and whatever else. He drew his weapon and backed up to his car and escaped. He said he'll always carry more ammo in the future. I told him that if he shot the first couple I doubt the rest would have been motivated to keep coming but I do see his point. Personally I like my M&P with one back up mag (25 rounds) or my P7 with two spare mags (25 rounds) sometimes with just one spare mag in my pocket which is still 17 rounds. I feel pretty well armed with that.
7 or 8 guys or 50 guys. Doesn't matter. If the first 15 rounds don't do it and the BGs are close enough to warrant shooting in the first place, you're not going to have time to reload. It is amazing how many folks think carrying a semi-auto without a round in the chamber is akin to carrying a brick because it takes too long to charge the pistol but then seem to think the BGs will agree to a time out if they have to reload during a SD situation.

How many people practice reloading while a BG or multiple BGs with impact weapons are bearing down on them? I suspect it is far fewer than those who just stick a couple extra reloads in their pocket and feel safe.

Reloads? Meh. If I have to take on multiple attackers, an extra gun or two is going to be my best chance at survival.
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Old July 9, 2009, 06:24 PM   #67
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Reality!!

Matolman1

Interjecting reality into this medium? Could be classed as a bit of a stretch,
but having been in a few big punch up's, me! Not this friend of mine, or I heard this story... Me!

This kind of a group could have been carved up with two or three wild men from the sixty's, good solid punches, shin kicks, head butts, we waded into street crowds, a boat full of drunks on the Royal Iris a River Mersey cruise/Ferry boat.
And really enjoyed it! But different times, and as Bouncers, we got paid as well!

Different times, different situation.

The first sound of a +P+ 9mm (my favorite carry round) with the muzzle flash (not seen by the shooter) vividly seen from the front, the possible, in fact very likely result, panic retreat. Anyone forgot their ear protection? With a target load? Try 30% more bang for your buck! Coming in your direction.

Have you ever seen some one (or more than one) kicked and stamped to death?

And before the never had a fight as an adult crowd jump in with "How do you justify this" who gives a tinkers cuss! You are White, the crowd is black, or you are black, and the crowd is white? It makes no never mind, it's a mob! You shoot them, a lot! Four shots? Five? The area is clearing, mobs sway left, right, forward or back. That is the nature of a mob.

My carry pistol and load, every day working, or concealed carry... Glock 19, with 16 rounds up, a spare mag, 17 rounds, small bright flashlight.

Good knife clipped to pocket, watch and cell phone.

Expect a riot? Know, do I feel I need a gun? I might, so I have one.

This is really one for the "It could not happen" crowd, or the "5 shot snubby is good enough"
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Old July 9, 2009, 06:27 PM   #68
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I only carry three rounds.

Statistics indicate 90% of armed confrontations are resolved by show of force, without firing a shot. Of those involving shooting, the AVERAGE number of shots fired is three.

I want to be average. I don't want any advantage the average armed civilian doesn't have. If I can't solve the situation in the first three rounds then I am done for. No use carrying all that extra weight of a loaded mag.

Anyone that carries more than three rounds is a fool. Their gun will be used against them. That scares the heck out of me.

In fact, I am thinking that 90% is good enough. Maybe I shouldn't carry any ammo, just the sound of racking the slide on my Glock will scare the attackers off 90% of the time.

What do you all think?



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Old July 9, 2009, 06:36 PM   #69
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ENGAGE and DESTROY! You hold the weapon of life and death in your hands!
Woo...Hoo...Now you're talking like an American.
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Old July 9, 2009, 07:26 PM   #70
Nnobby45
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Unless you're VERY good/fast, extra rounds won't help you. While shooting at the first attackers, the rest will gang-jump you and you'll be down. If one or more of them has guns, you're toast.
Not ruling out the possibility, but I'd be more inclined to bet they'd scatter like cockroaches when the lights come on at the first shot or even the sight of a gun. To suggest they'd attack into gunfire, knowing some would be shot, is more of a tribute to their bravery than deserved. I'm talking about gang members, not a large mob gone wild in the street.

It depends on the size of the mob and their mentality. Saw two British officers armed with BHP's surrounded and dragged from their car and beaten to death by a mob in N. Ireland. Don't believe they fired a shot, or that they could have saved themselves. The mob was motivated by pure hatred and was determined. The first part of the incident was shown on the news decades ago.

On the other hand, who could, with a straight face, say that Reginald Denny couldn't have saved himself if armed with a G19, P226, etc.-- spare mag. or not?

Instead of opening his door and seeing a G19 pointed at them, they just dragged him out of his truck and damaged his brain to the extent that, later on when he could walk and talk again, he said he didn't have any hard feelings.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Last edited by Nnobby45; July 9, 2009 at 07:39 PM.
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Old July 9, 2009, 07:33 PM   #71
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It is amazing how an angry mob stops dead in their tracks when one of their leaders falls flat on his face with a bullet in his forehead.

This whole family is very blessed just to be alive.

Even a big can of bear pepper spray or foam would have been priceless in this incident.

Very scary indeed.
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Old July 9, 2009, 07:45 PM   #72
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A gun is simply a tool. You are the weapon. You are the radar that is constantly scanning for information, processing that information and deciding if and when to act on that information.

Nobody needs to explain to me that a pistol in hand is not a cure all magic wand..."POOF" and everything is OK.

The need for constant training and discipline, for constant awareness and following up with your instincts when your brain alerts you to trouble, is the absolute majority of importance.

You should prepare yourself to acquire a combat mindset. When attacked, it is nothing short of millenium old close combat where the man with the most perseverance, physical and mental prowess and combat ruthlessness will win the day.

You cannot expect to overcome a deadly adversary that will use any tool at his disposal to destroy you or those you are sworn to protect, or an adversary that will just as soon kill you for a dollar at the local gas station, unless you yourself have trained your mind and body to be alert and aware and to react to this aggressive attack with extreme violence of action.

If you truly believe otherwise, you are delusional. You are the Sheep.
http://www.gleamingedge.com/mirrors/...sheepdogs.html

Read the above link, let it sink in. Then ask yourself if the Combat Mindset is unnecessary.

We live in America, the greatest country that has ever existed. Yet, people on this forum seem to like to mention how "I don't live in a war zone" or "I don't live in a place where there is a constant threat."
I ask you, are you living in the same country I am? in the same USA? This country has the highest prison population on earth. It has the highest violent crime rate on the earth. You DO live in a war zone.

Imagine what happens when the power goes out for a month and the riots begin. Anyone remember Katrina? It was a free for all. Mob rule.

BE PREPARED for the worst case scenario and always expect the unexpected.

I have enjoyed reading the various posts here, it helps me learn how people think and I enjoy learning about people. The more I know about how to average person thinks, the better prepared I can be.
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Old July 9, 2009, 08:03 PM   #73
Wildalaska
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Quote:
I ask you, are you living in the same country I am?
Yep.

Quote:
It has the highest violent crime rate on the earth


Quote:
You DO live in a war zone.
You have spent waaaaaaaaay too much time in Eretz Yisroel You are here in the US now, you can relax*

Quote:
If you truly believe otherwise, you are delusional. You are the Sheep.
Baaaah baaaah

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*My cousin spends hours trying to convice me to go live in Israel with him...I tell him I have enough stress trying to buy .380 ammo
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Old July 9, 2009, 08:11 PM   #74
Brian Pfleuger
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I ask you, are you living in the same country I am? in the same USA? This country has the highest prison population on earth. It has the highest violent crime rate on the earth. You DO live in a war zone.
Apparently not. Where I live, almost everyone within miles knows almost everyones else, at least in passing. We have not had a murder for miles around in more years than I can remember. Never heard of a rape that didn't involve an acquaintance. No armed robberies, no muggings, no gangs, no drive-bys, no mob violence after football games, nothing, really, at all.

In fact, in America as a whole, the one that exists outside of the vigor of the internet, 99% of the "sheeple" live their entire lives in peace. Completely unprepared as they may be, they manage just fine. They don't die violent deaths in shootouts. They die of old age and heart disease.

So, no, we do not live in a war zone. Not even close.

As prepared as I am to defend myself and my family, should the need arise, I am also fully aware that the need will most likely NEVER arise. Just like it never has for every one I know and every one I have EVER known.

Quote:
BE PREPARED for the worst case scenario and always expect the unexpected.
BE prepared for the "worst case"? Please, we can't even define "worst case". What would it be nuclear war? Meteor strike? Surely nothing less would qualify as "worst case". What should we all be doing? Underground bunkers, air purification, hundreds (thousands?) of MREs and canned food, water purification systems, dozens or hundreds of guns, hundreds of thousands of rounds of ammo, HAM radios, CBs....

More useless rhetoric.

Quote:
It has the highest violent crime rate on the earth.
That is just absolute crap. Ever heard of.... Somalia, Sudan, Darfur, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq?

Want a few more?


Do some reading:

http://www.nationmaster.com/article/...ound-the-World

and relax a little. The stress will kill you faster than a violent mugger.
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-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.

Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; July 9, 2009 at 08:21 PM.
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Old July 9, 2009, 08:18 PM   #75
Sportdog
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Matola1

Hey, I tried to warn you!:barf:
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