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Old July 19, 2009, 01:20 PM   #26
Glenn E. Meyer
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Any evidence to support those positions?

We do have plenty of folks with holes in their leg. How about a summary of incidents where it was shown that putting the finger on the trigger when the gun was pointed towards the bad guy was too slow?

I've had a guy put a 45 ACP round in the ground about a foot away from my toes. Had breakfast with a guy who put one in his leg at a match. Know the brother of the gentleman who blew out his femoral. EMTs on the spot saved him.
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Old July 20, 2009, 10:45 AM   #27
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Quote:
Let me clarify and add some perspective as not just an instructor but an advid action shooter.
Good post, especially your point that range shooting is MUCH different than "real life" SD situations.
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Old July 20, 2009, 06:36 PM   #28
thmsmgnm
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The reason you keep you finger off the bang button until you are ready to fire (meaning that you are going to fire) is to keep you from popping off a round due to sympathic response (Gunfire in another location, loud noise that spooks you, ect.)
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Old July 21, 2009, 10:12 AM   #29
Glenn E. Meyer
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Good point - also, as I posted in another thread - human factors research found that if you swing the gun in a sudden movement - as in a turn - it is sometimes enough to generate a force sufficient in your finger to pull the trigger.

I'm also still waiting for evidence of the differential risk outcome of finger on vs. finger off in test or real life.
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Old August 8, 2009, 02:36 PM   #30
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"Any evidence to support those positions?"

Actual combat experience Pistol against submachine guns at very cllose range twice.
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Old August 9, 2009, 12:08 PM   #31
Al Thompson
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Actually, I think this is one area where the internet will fail miserably.

If we all linked up and watched each other engaging targets from 0 to 15 yards or so, under time pressure, I think we'd all do the same. It's just that expressing the actions via the written word is tough to do.

A greater issue is that with the advent of the "8 hour CWP" style of instruction, instructors are getting the basics out (like taking Driver's ED in High School), but aren't putting the students "out on the interstate".

Once a student gets the basics down, stepping up the speed by smooth training and exterior time pressure can result in some very skillful shooters. If you watch the master grade competition shooters, they do not place that trigger finger on the trigger till the handgun is aligned with the target.

That does bring up my biggest argument with IPSC and IDPA - the draw stroke does not equal a firing command in the real world. It may, but there needs to be a decision made, not a knee jerk reaction.

Hard Ball, glad you prevailed.
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Old August 9, 2009, 01:05 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by NightSight
I had an interesting conversation with a friend the other day that I thought might make an interesting thread. I have invited this friend, who has had his CCW permit for about 6 months, out to train numerous times in the last year. He came the first time but hasn't been back since. He had kind of a rough day out his first time, and although he was not ridiculed, he had some bad habits (i.e. finger on the trigger, trigger slap, etc.) that were addressed.

Anyway, the point is that now he refuses to train. When pressed he told me that training lacks 80% of the realistic elements of defensive shooting and therefore is a waste of his time; however, he religiously carries.

I have tried to convince him of the importance of training exercises but to no avail. Have any of you been in similar circumstances with friends and acquaintances?? If so, how do you deal with this situation??
Given that you have invited this fellow multiple times, I'd say something happened that he wasn't comfortable with or simply doesn't enjoy. I don't play golf with certain friends because they are just way too serious about it, and it ruins the fun for me. We're still great buddies, we do other things together, we just don't golf together. Same with another group of friends who turned into drunken idiots and embarrassed me to no end with their antics on a course once. They are all still good buds, I just refuse to play golf with them.

Maybe the best way to remain friends is to respect his decision, not press him on the issue, and find something other than shooting to do with him.
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Old August 10, 2009, 03:13 AM   #33
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Friendship, marksmanship and trigger-safety

This is a very interesting thread indeed.

As a member of a club where we shoot IDPA, speed plate an bowling pins, I have helped a few people progress over the past 14 years, and maybe I can thow in a suggestion or two.

First, we all take for granted that everyone has been taught what a correct sight picture is, I have had some surprises on that, a few pictures go a long way in establishing it.

Next - check that grip, and correct trigger pull (dry fire)

a very useful drill to identify where missed shots are going (and why) is to shoot a single bullet, from about 8 yards to start with at a 1" dot.

This will help identify issues like milking (twisting to the right for right handed) or pushing (twiting to the left, again for right handed, oppsite for left handed)
as well as wrist breaking (shots going low)

Once we have ascertained and corrected these basic errors one can move on.

It is important to be kind when correcting errors, it hepls to criticize without others hearing every word. (especially if your friend is very self-conscious)


As for where should your finger be?
If you ever end up in a situation where your life is at danger, Adrenaline WILL make fine muscle control very difficult comparing to any training situation you have practiced. THis means that having your finger on the trigger before the barrel bears on your target can lead to you accidentally shooting yourself or anyone else who is not necessarily your intended target.

I think most of us agree that with sufficient practice we can become adept and quick at what we train, and that being ready to shoot before you are actually aiming at your oponent is not going to give you any advantage, but is going to put you, and maybe others at risk.

Therefore, IMO one should practice keeping the finger off the trigger until the firearm is bearing on your target, and taking your finger off the trigger as soon as the situation permits it.

I have seen at least one video of a LEO accidentally letting of a shot that hit very close to another LEO, who was sitting on a suspect and busy handcuffing him.
This is a good example for what I am trying to say.

Brgds,
Danny
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Old August 18, 2009, 11:27 PM   #34
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Find out another activity he's good at and go with him to do that...bowling, archery, etc. and let him be the better one, and have him instruct you. It can work both ways.
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Old August 19, 2009, 09:40 AM   #35
Glenn E. Meyer
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Quote:
"Any evidence to support those positions?"

Actual combat experience Pistol against submachine guns at very cllose range twice.
Got to do better than that. Demonstrate how trigger / finger combos saved or lost the day as compared to the risks of NDs.
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Old August 19, 2009, 12:06 PM   #36
kraigwy
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Hard Ball

Quote:
all modern instructors teach never to even touch the trigger until the gun is fixed on the target"

Then they are simply not qualified to teach actual combat shooting.
That, putting the finger on the trigger bit, would get you removed from my range and my classes.

First, its BS, Best example I could come up with is when I was in Vietnam, I worked as a point man a time or two, and as a PMs slack a lot. When walking point, the soldier carries his rifle with the selector switch on full auto (M16A1), and HIS FINGER OFF THE TIRGER.

When crawling through tunnels, with a 1911a1 the gun is off safe and ready to fire WITH THE FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER.

I never saw or heard of anyone getting into trouble because they couldn't get to the trigger fast enough, but I have heard of accidental discharges because the finger was on the trigger.

For someone to say not having the finger on the trigger is too slow to allow one to get a shot off, tells me he/she has very little experience shooting.
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Old August 19, 2009, 12:48 PM   #37
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They also teach to line up your sights but from the 7 1/2 yard line I was taught to shoot from the hip from age 7, and It has saved my bacon.
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