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Old July 5, 2009, 08:35 PM   #101
Magi
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I agree with ISC. I also think that 911 should have been dialed immediately.
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Old July 5, 2009, 08:53 PM   #102
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I think you handled it well, especially since you had a known good backstop. The only thing I may have done differently is only firing one warning shot so as not to leave yourself handicapped if the dogs hadn't run.

Everyone can sit here and say what they want but here's how it would break down if it had happened differently.

You have a CCW, see the dogs charging, do nothing and you or your kids are seriously injured or worse. You get criticized.

You have a CCW, see the dogs charging, decide to skip the warning shot and drop one or both of the dogs. You get criticized.

You have a CCW, see the dogs charging, yell and luckily they go away. It'd be nice if we knew ahead of time that would work 100% of the time, wouldn't it? Sorry folks, it's an imperfect world, we don't. You still might get criticized.

Considering that everyone including the dogs went home and had a happy 4th I'd say your actions brought about the best outcome this situation could have possibly had. Good job.

On a side note, idk about others here but it is really difficult for me to read dogs sometimes. I was out for a run on campus one day a few months ago and this guy was walking with his girlfriend and his unleashed dog of a breed that has a rep for not always being very nice. The dog sees me from about 50-75yds and makes a beeline for me at a full blown sprint. I stop, pull the iPod out and get in a squared stance with my arms cocked about waist high, thinking I'd sling her aside when she jumped. When she got to me all she want to do was get petted... the guy apologized, leashed her (the dog ), and we all went happily about our day. Just goes to show, you never can tell.
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Old July 5, 2009, 09:09 PM   #103
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I think that aggressive dogs are probably a more of a threat to people in this forum than aggressive humans. When I go on walks, I sometimes carry for that exact reason. If the dog bites you, the city will have it put down anyway--so might as well defend yourself, if you can do it safely!

The OPs natural instinct kicked in, as he decided to confront the threat and show a warning. The worst thing he, or others could have done is turn and run--as that would certainly have triggered a predator-prey response. Big dogs do a lot of damage and can easily kill people, especially children.
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Old July 5, 2009, 09:12 PM   #104
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I would just like to contribute my thoughts on this. You did what you thought was right. Ok. 3 shots would be pretty effective and from your story it was.
My dog, when hearing fireworks, cowers and hides somewhere because she is scared. She don't like them. She is a puppy though. Different dogs, different reactions. On the other hand, towards people on the other side of the door, she is a mean barking dog. Which she should be until I open the door, and then she is fine.
Point is, its easy to tell if a dog wants to come up and jump on you from excitement, or to bite you. My dog loves to jump on family that she hasn't seen, or even strangers. I control that and explain, and people are fine. Now, if my dog started to run towards someone, and there were little kids around, and someone wanted to shoot my dog because they felt afraid of what was going to happen, it would be MY fault. I lost control of my dog. Some people can't read dogs. Some can. Regardless the dog should be under control. If not, its the risk the owner takes. I never had anyone mis-read what my dog was intending to do(lick your face and smell your butt and wag her tail)
You did fine.
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Old July 5, 2009, 09:20 PM   #105
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1. I honestly cannot even see where Creature is coming from, and I am a fairly open minded person, but this guy is OUT there...
Ha! No doubt there.

I'm not waiting for any 60 pound animal to give me or my loved ones an unfriendly nibble. I recently had to female friends out for a jog get contfronted by a Rot. The dog was outnumbered but that didn't seem to make a difference. By the time they tried to make a run for it, the Rot was already on top of one of them. Luckily they were close to home at this point. The other female (a competitive target shooter) was able to retrieve her .22 hadgun from inside the house. 6 shots point blank to the side of the dogs head didn't seem to phase it. The 7th shot put it down for good, but the damage was already done. 17 staples in the forehead and a number of stitches to her wrist were needed.

To the OP... glad everyone made it home safe. Had it been me, I'd give strong verbal warning then shoot to kill with any further advance.
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Old July 5, 2009, 09:29 PM   #106
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Shooting a dog or someones pet is 10 years in prison where I live they concider it a crime here.It,s some kind of animal controll law here.
And I'm willing to bet a nickel there's more to your statement than that. Are you insinuating that an animal has rights over the protection on oneself or family?

Quote:
That's why I favor giving the dog my arm and using a blade. Then you have proven that the dog is aggressive to humans, at great pain to you I might add.
Some people in this world value the muscles, flesh, bones, and nerves in their arm to work for a living. To readily allow a physical assault from an aggressive canine just to think it's the best course of action to prove my innocence to the jury isn't in my cards. On top of that, thinking I will have the leverage, control, and balance to whip out my knife and effectively stab a 65lb. aggressive meateater that's mangling away at my limb and dragging me about without stabbing myself in the process isn't the best course of action to say the least.
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Old July 5, 2009, 09:30 PM   #107
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it would be MY fault. I lost control of my dog.
Exactly, it is the owners responsibility to control the dog, and he usually will be held responsible for any damage as a result of his failure to do so.

Quote:
Shooting a dog or someones pet is 10 years in prison where I live they concider it a crime here.It,s some kind of animal controll law here.
I will not call BS on this as I know there are some strange animal laws out there, but, I would really like to see how a DA would prosecute that in a case similar to this one.

Quote:
That's why I favor giving the dog my arm and using a blade.
I sincerely hope this was sarcasm, as I find it impossible to believe that anyone would, for any reason, consider this a good idea . Seriously ?

Perhaps you should read what the "doc" said;

surg_res said;

Quote:
I think that aggressive dogs are probably a more of a threat to people in this forum than aggressive humans.
And our resident Veterinarian TailGator said:

Quote:
Can dogs injure and incapacitate quickly, with one bite? You betcha! A very skilled member of my staff had to have very expensive hand surgery and extensive physical therapy after a single bite that happened so fast we were all stunned. The idea of waiting to be bitten before defending oneself or others from a dog bite, in the professional opinion of this 27-year veteran of veterinary practice, is nothing better than asinine.
An MD and DVM say it's a bad idea ? That's good enough for me.

Having not only grown up around dogs of various breeds, sizes, and temperaments, but been bitten, or seen it happen to someone else, if I have any doubt, then the dog will not get the benefit of it.
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Old July 5, 2009, 09:36 PM   #108
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thinking I will have the leverage, control, and balance to whip out my knife and effectively stab a 65lb. aggressive meateater that's mangling away at my limb and dragging me about without stabbing myself in the process isn't the best course of action to say the least.

Gonna have to go with Tut on this one.

ROTFLMFAO !
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Old July 5, 2009, 09:56 PM   #109
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Food for thought...

These pics are of my left hand after one quick nip from one of my catch dog bulldogs. It was an odd situation. We were trying to get him loaded into the top section of a buddies dog box. His little bulldog had been gunnin for a scrap with my dog all night and as junior and my buddies hefted him up the little dog clamped down on my dogs hind paw and no one noticed. They thought mine was just resisting the loading and I reached up for his collar and the 3 of us gave one good heft and in the increased pain he turned and nipped me one chomp. I still have some problems with the index finger.



Both the injury at my tip and on my palm at base of index finger are full through and through...
Reason enuff for me not to volunteer to an aggressive dog encounter!
Brent

Last edited by hogdogs; July 5, 2009 at 10:17 PM.
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Old July 5, 2009, 10:02 PM   #110
OuTcAsT
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These pics are of my left hand after one quick nip from one of my catch dog bulldogs.
Ouch ! Soak that in some coal oil, you'll be fine

This is why I would never;

Quote:
favor giving the dog my arm
Why not just hang out "ol blue" then ya got both hands to work the blade
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Old July 5, 2009, 10:10 PM   #111
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I had to shoot one while on a call a couple of weeks ago- 'dogbite' call of course. I was basically out on foot looking for victims & complainants and as soon as I found them the dogs-which I hadn't found yet-found me.

I heard snarling and barking off to my left rear and as I turned to face the racket, I saw two large dogs charging me at full speed from the middle of the street. A big Pit Bull was in the lead with a big brown Shepherd mix coming alongside and damn, they were coming fast! As they closed the remaining 20 feet the Pit had lowered its body, preparing to lunge.

I drew my Glock 22 and yelled ‘STOP!’ as I blocked the sights on bottom of the Pit Bull’s chest- a smaller target than it sounds like. There was no time to do anything but shoot and I found myself shooting one-handed. At 12 feet I fired two shots, which made it flinch but did not stop the charge. I compensated for the dog’s movement and triggered two more shots. It then started yelping, bleeding and flipping around the yard like a porpoise so I shot it once more through the shoulders. The other dog decided discretion was the better part of valor, and evaporated into thin air. I had planned to simply shift the gun across to him and keep firing, if Cujo #2 kept on coming. I have no doubt I would have gotten chewed on by both of them if I hadn't opened fire. As it was I had blood on my pants from the double-tap into the pit; he was that close.

I estimate the time from threat recognition, until the last shot was fired, at five seconds tops. My cursory examination of the dog revealed at least three holes in its front chest and shoulders, and the finisher which exited behind the off-shoulder. The load was 165 grain Golden Saber. They are hard to stop when committed to an attack.
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Old July 5, 2009, 10:11 PM   #112
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Outcast... I whooped out the betadine from my cut bag and wrapped an old t-shirt around it...
There is nerve damage on that first joint. Since I later flipped a truck onto the whole arm and hand so I can't tell if any of the other holes still bother me.
But man that thing hurt like mad, hand was useless for weeks and sore for months... Them bulldogs sure do have bite to them. I am 100% positive an arm would be absolutely destroyed in seconds and forget savin' a kid who took it in the face or neck!
Brent
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Old July 5, 2009, 10:16 PM   #113
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I whooped out the betadine from my cut bag and wrapped an old t-shirt around it..
That's probably best, but the old "brown bottle Lysol" does the trick too... just some wisdom from my Pappy.

If "coal oil" , "lysol', or "corn cob wine" can't fix er, you're probably gonna die.

(apologies to the folk on the other side of the "line" it's a Southern thang, ya'll just wouldn't understand)
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Old July 5, 2009, 10:25 PM   #114
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Gotta watch the "wisdom" sometimes! As a little boy I swore my mom was evil and was punishing my stupidity to always get wounded by using thes 2 things!
mercurochrome and merthiolate
Mentioned in this little diddy I found geeting the spelling right.
http://lifeinmathews.blogspot.com/20...rthiolate.html
Can't remember which one but one of them required the wounded kid to start blowing on the boo-boo before the stuff was even on!
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Old July 5, 2009, 10:27 PM   #115
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Can't remember which one but one of them required the wounded kid to start blowing on the boo-boo before the stuff was even on!

Merthiolate, Burns like hell !
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Old July 5, 2009, 11:12 PM   #116
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I watched my dad get his hand mulched by a 6 month old puppy with out mentioning breed it was large breed used as guard dogs or work dog.He was petting the dog gentlly as the dog was laying down and seemed to be enjoying my dads loving nature with animals and with out warning the dog bit and released but it was enough to take his hand to bare flesh and Mind you a puppy at 6 months.I also have a friend that nearly lost his leg from a bit that caused massive tissue damage and many stiches latter,he know has massive scars for life at his ankle and lower leg.


If I think a dog is going to attack especially if I am walking with my children, I am not going to fire a warning shot but I am going to put a 45 hole in it.I rather face charges then face lose of limb or my throat ripped out.In most case though I have fended of dogs by yelling and charging them.It worked on a couple of occasions.The dogs looked at me as I was nuts and they ran away.I also have been bitten more then once buy not taking some action.
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Old July 5, 2009, 11:56 PM   #117
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5whiskey, I think you took the right action. If I were in your situation I would do the same. Even though the dogs are pets, they are still animals and have instincts.

A few years ago my younger sister (16 at the time) was walking home from a friends house at night. A dog attacked her on her walk home, not a large dog, maybe only 50 lbs but it left her with multiple stitches in her hand and two broken fingers. From her account, the dog growled at her and then jumped at her. Ended up biting her left hand. Luckily she was able to use her right and an repeatably punch the dog in the snout and head till it let go. She said the dog did run off yelping after she hit it a few times. She's lucky she didn't get hurt anymore than she did. She was walking on the street like she always did, passed the same houses on the way home, and this time some neighbors dog decided to attack her. Never found out for sure who's dog it was be we have a good idea.

I am also a dog owner, I have two large rots. Both dogs are big teddy bears but if I saw them run at me I would feel threatend and would not want to experience be mauled by a 140lb dog. I would shoot of a warning or two if they got to close for comfort, especially around children.

Sixer, very true about the shots the Rot took. I have a few friends that are LEO's and they have said a Rot will take multiple shots before going down.
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Old July 6, 2009, 12:17 AM   #118
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My sister had a 125lb rotti put to sleep know of old age and hips.It jumped up on my to grete me and knocked me over.I am only 5' 7 1/2 I think the dog was taller then me.
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Old July 6, 2009, 12:20 AM   #119
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I've seen several folks mention fear of being charged if they have to shoot a dog in self-defense. I know laws and ordinance vary according to jurisdiction; I also know if you're packing legally and the shot dog is off its property, and in close proximity to where you were when you shot it- none of the cops I know is going to arrest you. Can't say what your local situation is, but it might be in your collective best interests to find out.

BTW I love Rotts.
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Old July 6, 2009, 01:04 AM   #120
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I think it was a job very well done. Since human know well what drawing a pistol means, the warning shots were pretty much justified. Grea job to keep you & your loved ones safe.
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Old July 6, 2009, 01:11 AM   #121
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In the "ideal" world I would just shoot the dog(s) and that would be that.

I don't live in an "ideal" world and know what the political landscape is here. As far as ever being bitten, yes. Once as a kid in the face, and again on the arm as an adult.

Yes, nerve, bone and muscle damage can and does occur. This is not a tactic I favor, but one that will hopefully let me continue living without sitting in a prison cell. I really don't believe the number of people here, where I reside, that think animals have "rights".

Anyway, I've posted enough on this topic and know what works for me.

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Old July 6, 2009, 01:26 AM   #122
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Dog Attack Scenario

Dogs are just or can't be preditable. Yes, they could have come up to
you, sniffed and shown affection or they could have done the mentioned
things then got hostile. Dog's you don't know could very well put you
on unease. You did the best discouraging them and then shooting in a
safe place when they didn't respond. A dog bite burn's like hell. You
would have a legal action against owners if bitten but may have had a
good reason to shoot (IMO). Anyway, life seems to go on and no one's
bringing any charges against you. Good luck with your future carry.
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Old July 6, 2009, 02:19 AM   #123
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would not have shot

I would not have shot from public right of way to private property as it sounds you may have done.
If legally on private property I would not have wasted shots on warnings.
If yelling and stompimg don't stop the animal I would shoot center mass.
The only time I shot at a dog he was about 18" away.
I don't fear dogs but shall not take a bite to let one live.
drawing your weapon seems proper but when they broke the charge shots may not have been needed.
Warning shots are just bad. they are reckless and I can't reconcile that fact.
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Old July 6, 2009, 03:02 AM   #124
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Well, the warning shots seemed to work in this case. No one was hurt... including the dogs.

As far as private property goes, to me it's a non-issue. As long as my family and I haven't jumped the fence into somebody's back yard of course. Other than that, if I sense my family or I are even remotely in danger from a dog, sasquatch, giant rabbit, etc... my weapon will be drawn and any aggressive behavior will be followed by shots. It will be my decision on whether or not they are a warning or kill shots.
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Old July 6, 2009, 04:19 AM   #125
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I know of someone who was bitten ONCE on the head by a large 120lb mixed breed dog. She had plastic surgery to repair her ear, 48staples on her scalp and forehead.

I would not bewilling to take a bite or let anyone else take a bite.

I think since you had time to draw your weapon and know your backstop that there was probably no real danger. If there was real danger they would have been on you. but otoh it could have turned dangerous real fast.

All in all, you did ok in my book.
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