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Old July 3, 2009, 10:32 PM   #176
OuTcAsT
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I gotta tell you, you guys just kill me. It has nothing to do with our testosterone!

Quote:
I am a man

So, Which is it ?



Quote:
Man, I am getting really tired of of all the. "let's be nice and don't do anything"
I don't blame you, that would be tiresome, however I have not seen any posts that suggest any such thing, got a quote to that effect?


Quote:
it has a lot to do with, "DOING THE RIGHT THING"
Most of us are suggesting that the 'right' thing is also the 'smart' thing, and rushing head long into a situation that you likely are not equipped or prepared for is probably not going to be 'right' or 'smart'.

Quote:
You guys say, "it's not our responsibility to chase the bad guy". I'm sorry, but for some of us, that is just not acceptable.
then "some of you" really need to evaluate why it's un-acceptable.

Quote:
OldMarksman's post "Man Chases Intruder from House, Shoots", provides the logical extension to the positions posited in this post. Though the law has changed since the date of occurrence in that situation, many of the principles and thoughts are the same.
You should really read that thread, it's very enlightening.
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Old July 3, 2009, 10:37 PM   #177
RiverCity.45
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In Texas...

Seems like there are a lot of different ideas about this. In Texas, the use of deadly force is authorized to pursue and recover property under certain conditions:

Penal Code Section 9.42.
DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is
justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible,
movable property:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under
Section 9.41 ; and
(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly
force is immediately necessary:
(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary,
robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal
mischief during the nighttime; or
(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing
burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime
from escaping with the property
; (Notice it says "with the property") and
(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by
any other means; (such as calling the police?) or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover
the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial
risk of death or serious bodily injury.
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Old July 4, 2009, 08:15 AM   #178
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OutCast and Old Marksman:

As I stated in my post (as I always do), that is MY personal opinion. You believe in what you want, as that is fine with me. I live my life the way I think it should be lived. You have different views and I understand that. But I don't think you guys appreciate or respect other people's points of views. That is all I am saying here.

For example: Your quote of "which is it": "I am a man", referring to my testosterone. In my opinion, its got nothing to do with testosterone. Being a man (my definition) is just being responsible and taking care of your family. I am not "being macho" as you suggest, but rather willing to face my responsibilities. Obviously that is a difficult concept for you to grasp, (from reading your responses to my post).

With that said gentlemen, I would like to wish you and your families a great Fourth of July holiday. What a great country we live in as compared to the rest of the world. Let's hope it stays that way............
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Old July 4, 2009, 10:18 AM   #179
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Quote:
For example: Your quote of "which is it": "I am a man", referring to my testosterone. In my opinion, its got nothing to do with testosterone. Being a man (my definition) is just being responsible and taking care of your family. I am not "being macho" as you suggest, but rather willing to face my responsibilities. Obviously that is a difficult concept for you to grasp, (from reading your responses to my post).

I completely understand most of what you are saying, I too, am a man, and responsible for the safety of my family, nothing wrong with that. Where our paths differ is that My belief is that the responsibility I have for the safety, and well-being of my family is my primary responsibility. Not only to keep my home secure, and safe, but to also do everything within my power to continue to be the; protector, breadwinner, father, and husband.

Let me put it another way, what could there be, that exists outside your home that is more valuable to you than your family ? Also, what is there outside your home, that is more valuable to your family than you ?

Anyone who knows me, knows that my home is my fortress, and should someone decide to cross that line, they are taking their life in their hands. What happens to the guy depends on his reaction. If he wishes a fight, I will oblige, If he presents enough of a threat, that threat will be neutralized. If he kicks in the door, and realizes he has come too far, and decides to flee, then that's fine. Either way, I have lived up to my responsibility, and most importantly, I have survived. Have I done nothing ? You decide.

Unless I have mis-read your posts, you seem to feel that your responsibility extends beyond mere protection of life and limb, and includes a responsibility of ;

Quote:
"DOING THE RIGHT THING". Which is arresting the SOB, and/or preventing repeat offenders, (even if you have to do it yourself).
or;

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you must understand, that some of us must stand up for what they believe is right.
And therein lies our only difference. Certainly justice needs to prevail, but at what personal cost to you ? Or to your family ?

There is nothing wrong with being a man of strong principle, I admire it, and have stood for it, and, for my Country. I only hope you will not let principles overcome sound judgment. Discretion is the better part of valor.

Have a safe July 4 !
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Old July 4, 2009, 10:36 AM   #180
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Just a note from a gender sensitive prof - being a man has nothing to do with defending your property or family. People of either gender have equal responsibility for appropriate actions.

If the hidden implication is that is 'manly' to do XY or Z, that is an obsolete view in today's world. However, if 'manly' means irrational or driven by ego - go ahead and use the term.

Here's the deal on the chase - if you chase and tell the person to stop, and they don't - tell me what you are going to do?

Are you ready to wrestle with them? You can't just shoot them in most circumstances.

That's different from telling someone in your house not to move. You might make the case that the person was threatening. If you chase someone and they continue to stroll away from you - then what?

So do you wrestle?
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Old July 4, 2009, 10:47 AM   #181
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Hi Glenn:

Opinions vary and that is good for all of us. To answer your question, "If someone breaks down my front door, am I going to chase them or wrestle with them to stop them from getting away"?? Easy answer for me, YES... I am a person of strong principle and beliefs. That is just the way of my makeup. Most of my life it has provided me with the right direction. Now I am not dense enough to realize that it may always be perfect but for me it works.

Now if the bad guy is foolish enough to pull a weapon on me for trying to stop him (which I sure hope he does not) then I will have to defend myself to the degree that ends the threat. He is NOT going to get away with home invasion and/or scarying my family half to death..... End of story.

Happy 4th of July, I am going to grab a couple hot dogs and a cold beer shortly. Enjoy the holiday!
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Old July 4, 2009, 10:52 AM   #182
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Just a note from a gender sensitive prof - being a man has nothing to do with defending your property or family. People of either gender have equal responsibility for appropriate actions.
I agree completely Glenn, I know Women who are likely more competent "protectors" than I, no offense was intended.
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Old July 4, 2009, 11:03 AM   #183
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I certainly agree with strong action in the home.

My question was if the person is outside and fleeing - will you wrestle as lethal force is probably precluded.

My proactive wrestling days are over. Too old unless it is active SD.

I specifically asked about wrestling because it is dangerous, esp. if you are armed. Near where I live a SWAT officer got into a wrestling match with a burglar and was disarmed and shot with his own gun. I am not a SWAT officer in youth or training.

Thus, if you follow to aid in the pursuit of the arriving police, I can see that although I might not personally and think is dangerous. But not theoretically incorrect.

But my question deals with the fleeing person who doesn't follow directions - what do you do then? Your options are usually different from the police.

My bit of H2H and knife class suggests, I don't want to initiate close combat.
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Old July 4, 2009, 11:33 AM   #184
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Opinions vary and that is good for all of us.
Well, yeah, but while the underlying facts, and the risk identification, may vary by situation and by jurisdiction, they are not subject to personal opinion. Only the assessment of what risks might be acceptable to assume and the decision about what to do are subject to opinion. It is the former that people have been trying to explain to you.

Quote:
To answer your question, "If someone breaks down my front door, am I going to chase them or wrestle with them to stop them from getting away"?? Easy answer for me, YES... I am a person of strong principle and beliefs. That is just the way of my makeup. Most of my life it has provided me with the right direction. Now I am not dense enough to realize that it may always be perfect but for me it works.
Then I think you owe it to yourself and to your family to learn what you can and cannot do and how to go about doing it. Look for and take some professional training, sit down with a qualified, experienced criminal trial attorney in your district, and if possible, find out how the best nearby law enforcement agency trains its officers.

From the legal standpoint, you will need to know:
  • What constitutes a citizen's arrest, and when is it permissible?
  • How does one effect a citizen's arrest?
  • What are the limitations--degree of force, time period and conditions of detention, etc.--of what one can do?
  • What are the liabilities (criminal and civil) assumed by the citizen who attempts to effect an arrest?
  • What happens when the suspect resists or refuses to comply?

From the tactical standpoint, there are several things to know, most of which can probably best be learned from police procedures and training:
  • How does one actually capture and restrain a perp in such a situation?
  • How many persons does it take to do so? What do you do if you are alone?
  • How does one ensure that it is done safely (weapons retention, suspect is under the influence of controlled substances and extremely powerful and violent, etc.)?
  • What steps must be taken to ensure that evidence exists after the fact to defend against any claims that unlawful or excessive force was used?
  • How should a plain-clothes officer or civilian handle things to avoid being identified as a crtiminal and shot by officers arriving on the scene?

Quote:
He is NOT going to get away with home invasion and/or scarying my family half to death..... End of story.
Actually, that will be determined after the arrest by the justice system under due process, unless you are thinking that you are going to shoot him.

Last edited by OldMarksman; July 4, 2009 at 12:32 PM. Reason: Correction; typo
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Old July 4, 2009, 12:06 PM   #185
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How should a plain-clothes officer or civilian handle things to avoid being identified as a criminal and shot by officers arriving on the scene?
This is possibly one of the biggest liabilities anyone would face in a situation like this, and this is a point that cannot be stressed enough.

Let's assume, for a moment, that one is of a mindset to chase down a BG to hold him for LE to arrive;

How is an officer gonna know who the BG is ?

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and conjecture that both of you are the BG to the officer, until (hopefully) things get sorted out.

And if a firearm(s) are involved, things may go south quickly.

Another question to ponder, Let's assume that I am a BG, and walking through a neighborhood. I see a door that looks safe to kick, and I do it, but uh-oh ! somebody is home, I don't want to confront a possibly armed homeowner so, I'm haulin a$$ . But this guy is chasing me.
If I get away, it's all good, but the guy wants to stop me ! when the cops arrive, how is this homeowner going to prove that he is not an aggressor that simply attacked me for no good reason ? Maybe more than one person in the house saw me clearly, maybe not. could be my word against his. Lot's of dynamics involved here.


Quote:
"If someone breaks down my front door, am I going to chase them or wrestle with them to stop them from getting away"?? Easy answer for me, YES... I am a person of strong principle and beliefs. That is just the way of my makeup. Most of my life it has provided me with the right direction. Now I am not dense enough to realize that it may always be perfect but for me it works.

Now if the bad guy is foolish enough to pull a weapon on me for trying to stop him (which I sure hope he does not) then I will have to defend myself to the degree that ends the threat. He is NOT going to get away with home invasion and/or scarying my family half to death..... End of story.
I understand your motivation friend, but what concerns me is your certainty that you can, and will prevail. Not only in HTH combat, but also if a weapon is involved. Also, you don't seem to take into account the possibility of more than one guy. I do not know you, nor your physical abilities, you may be Jet Li, and Jeff Cooper rolled into one package. But answer this; when you bolt out that door after the BG, how will you assess whether you can "take him" ? And if there are two ? are you still confident that you will prevail ? If you do prevail, certainly you will sleep well knowing you did the right thing, but, if you lose, and are maimed, or killed, will your principles feed, clothe, and protect your family from the next BG ? Or do your principles and beliefs just make you unable to fathom that there might be that chance ?
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Old July 4, 2009, 01:00 PM   #186
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BG mis-identification

Just look up a couple of high vis incidents in NYC, last month, and Orlando, last year. Off duty officer in NYC and plainclothes UCF cop in Orlando got killed by brother officers, who saw men with guns "menacing" others; in both cases, shooting officer claimed the decedent didn't comply with orders to drop weapons.

Don't know if such orders were really given, or if orders were given and not heard, or heard but not comprehended. One of the interesting problems that ties into "fight or flight" is that the body responds physiologically by amping up vision and amping down auditory clues. Not sure how this occurs, but it was taught both in psychology classes when I was in college, and in flight physiology classes in the Navy. Personal experience has borne this out, especially when teaching students in airplanes - the more stressed they get, the less they respond to verbal commands.

So, assuming one is amped up, chasing a bad guy, with weapon displayed (let's assume one isn't intentionally menacing or pointing, but one's SD weapon is a shotgun, so it can't be concealed during pursuit), what happens when an officer happens across the chase?

Again, personally I have no moral problem with the concept of the pursuit, and would abide by legal restrictions in the area. But, tactically, pursuit could be a really bad idea, and it should be extremely justified in one's mind before one attempts it.
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Old July 4, 2009, 03:17 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by OutCast
I completely understand most of what you are saying, I too, am a man, and responsible for the safety of my family, nothing wrong with that. Where our paths differ is that My belief is that the responsibility I have for the safety, and well-being of my family is my primary responsibility. Not only to keep my home secure, and safe, but to also do everything within my power to continue to be the; protector, breadwinner, father, and husband.

Let me put it another way, what could there be, that exists outside your home that is more valuable to you than your family ? Also, what is there outside your home, that is more valuable to your family than you ?

Anyone who knows me, knows that my home is my fortress, and should someone decide to cross that line, they are taking their life in their hands. What happens to the guy depends on his reaction. If he wishes a fight, I will oblige, If he presents enough of a threat, that threat will be neutralized. If he kicks in the door, and realizes he has come too far, and decides to flee, then that's fine. Either way, I have lived up to my responsibility, and most importantly, I have survived. Have I done nothing ? You decide.

Bingo. That's it right there, can't say it any better. Anything beyond that is a clear statement that esoteric things like "justice" and "doing right" are more important than surviving for your family, not just in the context of a world war, or freeing a nation under tyranny, but simply because of a burglary.
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Old July 4, 2009, 03:35 PM   #188
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simply because of a burglary.
... except this wasn't just attempted burglary. It was a armed home invasion, which is a far more heinous crime that is looked upon far differently than burglary.

Still, OutCast's point is spot on.
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Old July 5, 2009, 09:49 AM   #189
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Chasing the bad guy:

Actually, everyone's point is right on.

We all have our own decisions to make in a crisis situation. There probably is no perfect answer and/or exact right way handle these things. Too many varibles in each scenario. Some decisions are better than others and less risky. My response is probably more aggressive (and may not be the perfect solution for handling this scenario). But it is who I am and what I believe I should do, as a result of an armed home invasion. I just hope I never have to act out what I think I would do if this ever happened to me and my family. But if I ever have to, I know what I will do.
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Old July 5, 2009, 11:56 AM   #190
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.... if I ever have to, I know what I will do.
Then, is one to infer that you know the right answers to the following questions?
What constitutes a citizen's arrest, and when is it permissible?

How does one effect a citizen's arrest?

What are the limitations--degree of force, time period and conditions of detention, etc.--of what one can do?

What are the liabilities (criminal and civil) assumed by the citizen who attempts to effect an arrest?

What happens when the suspect resists or refuses to comply?
How does one actually capture and restrain a perp in such a situation?

How many persons does it take to do so? What do you do if you are alone?

How does one ensure that it is done safely (weapons retention, suspect is under the influence of controlled substances and extremely powerful and violent, etc.)?

What steps must be taken to ensure that evidence exists after the fact to defend against any claims that unlawful or excessive force was used?

How should a plain-clothes officer or civilian handle things to avoid being identified as a criminal and shot by officers arriving on the scene?
Personally, I do not, except for the one about civil liability (I could stand to lose everything).

I also know that police officers around here do not attempt to arrest a suspect alone.

For the reasons that I do not know the answers, that I do not have backup, and that taking the risks seem foolhardy to me, I also know what I will do, and that is to let sworn officers do their duty.

I have not yet figured out any conceivable reason why the community would be any better off if I were to attempt and safely, successfully, and lawfully conduct an arrest myself. The guy will go to the same booking room anyway.

But--if that's your decision, proceed, in ignorance or with the necessary knowledge, whichever it is. Perhaps you will be very lucky indeed.

BikerRN, who is one person who has the training, practical knowledge, and professional experience to credibly weigh in on a subject of this kind, said the following in regard to another case of home invasion:
"While I understand the desire to detain and hold for arrest someone that breaks in to your domicile, I cannot condone it.

"Only a fool would leave the safety of their home to chase an intruder."
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...5&postcount=21
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Old July 5, 2009, 09:57 PM   #191
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Then, is one to infer that you know the right answers to the following questions?...
For his sake, I sure as Hell hope so OldMarksman,

As for me, I will have to rely on old age and treachery
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Old July 5, 2009, 10:06 PM   #192
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No way in hell that I chase some douchebag OUT of my house and try to catch him. He's gone, doors are re-locked, 911 is called, and I wait, armed, until the cops come and the 911 operator says it's time to dis-arm.
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Old July 6, 2009, 09:43 PM   #193
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Old Marksman:

Quote: "Then is one to infer that your know all the the right answers to following questions"? (your questions of course)...

NO. I DON'T KNOW ALL THE ANSWERS... Never said I did, just what I would do in this particular scenario.

Seems like only YOU have all the right answers. I will leave the answer dept. to your exertise, (the resident genius).
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Old July 6, 2009, 09:49 PM   #194
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If you don't know the answers...

... but you know what you intend to do,

it's kind of a "don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up" mindset.

Frankly, if you are so determined to give pursuit should the situation arise, you have no excuse for not looking up the answers to those questions pertinent to your locale. You already know you plan to chase. You already know there could be legal issues. Many of those issues have been identified for you.

Other than pure stubbornness, why would you not look up the answers for your state and county?
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Old July 6, 2009, 10:07 PM   #195
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MLeake:

You just answered your own question....

Note: Someone just kicked down the front door of your home, (its called a home invasion last time I checked). I guess you are going to look up all the regs and laws of your state before doing anything at that exact instant?

Sure, we can all sit back and reflect on what we should or would do, if it happened to us. Reading this off our website affords you the luxury of making the perfect decision. However, when this situation did occur, (in real time) there was no warning or time to look up the regs or laws. The guy was getting away. All I said, is that is not going to happen on my watch. I really don't care what you would do, (that is your business) and you live in another state. I was just stating what I would do. End of story..........
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Old July 6, 2009, 10:15 PM   #196
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Only at this point we are talking about you

and not the original guy. Unlike him, you are thinking about this in advance. You DO have the time to research legal ramifications.

Put it another way. By profession, I'm a pilot. Pilots frequently do something called "hangar flying." This is where we sit around with other pilots, and talk about bad situations that we have personally encountered, or we read up on accident reports submitted by or about other pilots. The idea isn't to Monday morning quarterback everybody, the idea is to avoid having to learn everything for the first time when it happens to you.

You'd be amazed at the things you can recall under pressure, when you've drilled them enough times. You'd also be amazed by how many problems in the air are eerily similar to problems others have already encountered. Having discussed fires, engine failures, weather encounters ad nauseam, I have been much better prepared when I've subsequently experienced my own fires, engine failures, and weather encounters. (And yes, I've had several... the joys of military aviation... it's nice to have multiple engines, and a well trained crew)

My point is that you take the time to read the forums, and to get involved in debates. Why not take some time to review your own statutes? It could make a world of difference to you someday.
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Old July 6, 2009, 10:23 PM   #197
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Quote:
Someone just kicked down the front door of your home, (its called a home invasion last time I checked). I guess you are going to look up all the regs and laws of your state before doing anything at that exact instant?
Can't speak for him or any of the other of us "resident geniuses" but If I had already made up my mind that if some guy kicks down my door, And I plan to ignore all common sense because of some form of "personal honor" machismo, and having admitted that I do not have a clue how I am gonna handle it because I am much too "manly" for that. I think I would spend some time looking into life insurance quotes, so that my wife, and kids, will have the financial aid to help their "New Daddy" keep them safe after my Funeral.

Quote:
End of story..........
Most likely.
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Old July 6, 2009, 10:33 PM   #198
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Wow OutCast, you amaze me...

You just have to get in the last words don't you. Okay, you win!

But alas, as I stated earlier: END OF STORY.........
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Old July 6, 2009, 10:35 PM   #199
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It was probably not the right idea chasing the guy down since they already knew who he was. It also seems odd because he didn't even have any of their property with him so what was the motivation nothing could have been gained? I speculate that there is some kind of back story to all this, perhaps its drug/gang related or even a long time feud. People generally don't try to kick down the door of someones house they know while armed. Too bad we don't have more info.
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Old July 6, 2009, 10:41 PM   #200
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NO. I DON'T KNOW ALL THE ANSWERS... Never said I did, just what I would do in this particular scenario.
And you believe that it is somehow not completely foolhardy to enter into irreversible, serious action that can alter your life forever without knowing those answers?

You said you will give chase. Do you have any idea at all what you would do upon intercepting the suspect?

Quote:
Seems like only YOU have all the right answers. I will leave the answer dept. to your exertise, (the resident genius).
Nope. Not at all. I said I know only the answer to one of the questions. The one about civil liability, which could ruin me and mine. There are ten others that I do not know the answers to.

And that's one reason why I wouldn't head out into the dark after someone....

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I guess you are going to look up all the regs and laws of your state before doing anything at that exact instant?
Come again? Who in his right mind would do that? The time to learn, the time to train, is before the eventuality.

I was about to describe an analogy about getting into an airplane with the idea of going somewhere and landing without first learning how the particular airplane performs, without developing a flight plan, etc., when I noticed MLeake's post. Upon reflection, a better analogy would be getting in and trying to take off without having any knowledge at all of the principles of flight.

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However, when this situation did occur, (in real time) there was no warning or time to look up the regs or laws. The guy was getting away.
Referring to the OP? We know that someone was shot, and we've heard what the shooter and his brother said. Do we know that someone was "getting away"?

Do what you want. With luck--quite a bit of luck, probably--your family just might come out OK. Hopefully, your actions, taken in the admitted ignorance of the answers to the critical pertinent questions, will not result in adverse action against the rights and ability of others to defend themselves lawfully, whatever happens to you.
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