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Old July 1, 2009, 08:14 PM   #126
PT111
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PT111 and TailGator

both referred to the failure to notify police.

However, when pressed, PT111 said that info came from reader comments under the article, not from the article, the police, or the DA.

The article actually said the police were looking at it as a possible case of self defense.

It would be interesting to have some actual facts.

It would be nice to avoid accusing the shooter of something based on reader's comment number 7 under an article online.
Please reread the posts your are refering to and please quote accurately. The failure to notify the police came from the article and you would have known if you had read it and watched the video. The comments also made some reference to it but the article stated out with that a body had been found. The troubling part is that they never said how they linked the two.
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Old July 1, 2009, 08:16 PM   #127
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Why do people feel the need to chase down suspects?

He ran off. Let him go.

My job is to defend myself and my family. It's the police's job to find the suspect.

I'm not sure what will happen legally but morally those guys are responsible for the suspect's death.
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Old July 1, 2009, 08:18 PM   #128
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Quoting PT111 from Post # 103:

PT111: Vanya - It was in the reader comments portion of the story in the OP. Click on the comments link and it about the 7th comment down from Spurs Fan 1985. As I said pure rumor and gossip but makes you wonder.

As far as reading the article, the only link I've seen was in Post #1. That article said nothing about an unreported body. If you have other links, please send.

No, I didn't watch the attached video, as I tend to prefer print articles over most video, unless the video is actual footage.
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Old July 1, 2009, 08:20 PM   #129
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On what planet?

Quote:
morally those guys are responsible for the suspect's death
Assuming that those guys were chasing someone who had broken and entered their dwelling and were chasing him to turn him over to the police, and assuming that the suspect pulled a gun on his pursuers, MORALLY the suspect is responsible for his own demise. Sheesh.
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Old July 1, 2009, 08:21 PM   #130
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Concur with Ricky B

Assuming his assumptions are true.

If these guys pursued with intent to do harm, that's a different story entirely.
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Old July 1, 2009, 08:23 PM   #131
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Assuming that those guys were chasing someone who had broken and entered their dwelling and were chasing him to turn him over to the police
It is not my job to turn people over to the police. It is the police's job to catch them. My job is to protect what is mine and report what I know to the police, not chase people down for the police.
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Old July 1, 2009, 08:25 PM   #132
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If these guys pursued with intent to do harm, that's a different story entirely.
They gave chase with a firearm, when they were no longer in any danger....

Why not just hunker down and wait for police?
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Old July 1, 2009, 08:30 PM   #133
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RickyB, after re-reading your post, I had a thought.

The burglar chose to do the burglary, so yes, I agree he was responsible for his own death.

But the homeowners didn't have to give chase. They could have just sat tight until cops arrived. Is there no moral responsibility for having handled the situation incorrectly?

Most situations like this are complex and there are likely multiple points when someone could have walked away (or stayed put) and avoided a death.
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Old July 1, 2009, 09:00 PM   #134
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Apologies to PT111

Need to work on my reading thoroughness. The article did say police responded to a call after a body was discovered. This also means I may have misunderstood his comment to Vanya.

However, I have not seen any police or DA statements about whether the shooter also called it in, or failed to do so. Article does not mention how the shooter and his brother were identified.

Can't find any follow-up articles so far.
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Old July 1, 2009, 09:48 PM   #135
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I did not catch the part about the body being found the first time I read it either. I watched the video and there is where I picked it up and reread the article. Since they did not give any names it has been hard to seach for more info in it and the only additional thing I found was the rumor in the comments. I tried to be very careful in saying that those were rumors. I would like to know how they traced the body to the shooter.
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Old July 1, 2009, 10:57 PM   #136
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So many mentions of this "apprehending" and "citizens arrest" and so few posts, like zero, with the actual statute.... hard to make a claim or judgement without the law...
Now that we agree, perhaps you could be less judgemental with re: to labeling a controversial incident not framed in precise statutes as "straight up murder".
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Old July 1, 2009, 11:00 PM   #137
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So are the cops morally responsible for the suspects death if they shot him when he pulled a weapon, after they chased him down? OR SINCE WE PAID THEM to do it with our tax money they are not morally responsible any more?

I guess the laws of morality change when money is involved.
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Old July 2, 2009, 12:22 AM   #138
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But the homeowners didn't have to give chase. They could have just sat tight until cops arrived. Is there no moral responsibility for having handled the situation incorrectly?
Yes they didn't have to give chase. But they didn't have to not give chase either. They were well within their legal and moral rights to pursue the intruder.

Is pursuing someone who has kicked in your door somehow immoral? I don't see that.

I agree that if the purpose was to administer a beating it would be improper if they actually caught the guy and harmed him instead of turning him over to the cops.

But if the purpose was to catch the guy and turn him over to the cops, I see nothing morally incorrect about pursuing him. And if the end result is that the pursuers shoot the BG in self-defense (BG pulls a gun to keep from being captured and turned over to the cops), I see no moral responsibility on their part.

Keep in mind that breaking and entering an occupied dwelling has a high degree of moral culpability (as well as being a serious criminal offense), not only because it inherently involves dishonesty but also because it creates an unnecessary of risk of death or serious injury. To shift blame to the victims of the crime is not something I can accept.

Personally, I am unlikely to take the course of action of pursuing BGs, and I wouldn't recommend it to most others, but that's because of practical considerations, not because I think it morally or legally improper.
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Old July 2, 2009, 07:53 AM   #139
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Hi Texasrich...

Your quote: "They gave chase with a firearm, when their life was no longer in danger".... Says who?

What if the dirt bag decides to come back later for revenge for confronting him? Maybe he brings a couple buddies, etc. It is certainly possible.
No, this needs to end here and now. Breaking down your front door is a serious crime and puts you and your family's life in danger.

What about the nice folks who have their door kicked in like this and they DON'T have a firearm to protect themselves? No, this depends on each of us and our beliefs on how to handle this situation. The bad guy here needs to be arrested or taken out of the equation (if he pulls a weapon on you). That is my personal opinion (and opinions vary). I just can't envision some scum bag kicking down my front door (committing a home invasion) and being able to just walk or run away without any repercussions for his actions.
Ain't going to happen in my home, period. Like I have mentioned in earlier posts, I live pretty far out of town and the police would take forever to get to my house. No, I believe I would have my wife call the police while I am going after the perp.
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Old July 2, 2009, 08:31 AM   #140
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What if the dirt bag decides to come back later for revenge for confronting him? Maybe he brings a couple buddies, etc. It is certainly possible.
Absolutely and completely irrelevant to the legality of using deadly force, whether by a civilian or a sworn officer.

While a civilian may be able to effect a citizen's arrest, it is dangerous and fraught with not only civil but criminal liability. Better to leave that to sworn, trained, and indemnified officers.

Quote:
Breaking down your front door is a serious crime and puts you and your family's life in danger.
Yes indeed. Opponents of "castle laws" don't seem to get that.

Quote:
What about the nice folks who have their door kicked in like this and they DON'T have a firearm to protect themselves?
I've argued that point for decades.

Quote:
I just can't envision some scum bag kicking down my front door (committing a home invasion) and being able to just walk or run away without any repercussions for his actions.
Most people agree with that, but personally, I prefer to leave the enforcement task for those we pay and equip, and to avoid the risks of being shot, stabbed, sued, charged, and possibly convicted and imprisoned.

What these guys did was incredibly risky. Depending on the outcome, it may also prove to have been incredibly stupid. But none of us can decide that.
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Old July 2, 2009, 09:02 AM   #141
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How many posters does it take...

How many posters does it take to realize most of the arguments/opinions put forth rely on speculations about what actually happened? The answer is everyone before me. The article does not have enough information to voice opinions on whether the burgular is innocent or whether the guys pursuing him were innocent in what happened. Since he's dead its possible that the truth will never be known.

One thing that I think people are forgetting is this: you can say all you want that they should have let the burgular go and it was stupid to chase (I do agree with that) HOWEVER until it happens to you, don't try to say what they should have done. Its easy to say what they should have done as we sit on our PCs and laptops, throwing out opinions from the comfort of our own home or workplace. How many of the posters actually have personal experience with any of this?

Think about it...

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Old July 2, 2009, 09:20 AM   #142
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How many posters does it take to realize most the arguments/opinions put forth rely on speculations about what actually happened? The answer is everyone before me.
Well, no, CSMSSS said something similar in Post 76:

Quote:
...there is a profound dearth of reliable information on this case, so it's way too early to make any determination as to whether the shooter's actions were justified, somewhat justified, or entirely unjustified.
......

Hopefully we'll learn more about these events, the shooter's actions and the entirety of the circumstances preceding the shooting. Until then, I'm going to reserve judgement about the shooter's culpability, if there be any.

...which I believe is right on point.

Quote:
The article does not have enough information to voice opinions on whether the burgular is innocent or whether the guys pursuing him were innocent in what happened.
Many others, including I, have said or implied that.

Quote:
Its easy to say what they should have done as we sit on our PCs and laptops, throwing out opinions from the comfort of our own home or workplace. How many of the posters actually have personal experience with any of this?
I've had two home invasions and one attempt at forcible entry, and stopped all of them with firearms. My own home was less "comfortable" during each of these events.

And I sure as heck didn't venture out into the dark unknown in pursuit of any of them. Not because I was thinking about the law or morality, but because I thought it would have been foolhardy.
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Old July 2, 2009, 09:36 AM   #143
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until it happens to you, don't try to say what they should have done. Its easy to say what they should have done as we sit on our PCs and laptops, throwing out opinions from the comfort of our own home or workplace. How many of the posters actually have personal experience with any of this?
Winchester, I can't speak for others but I operate under the assumption that we are all armchair quarterbacks (unless stated otherwise). Thank God, most of us have not had similar experiences, so all we can do is give our opinion as to what is right and wrong and give our best guess as to what we would have done.

I personally would never go after the suspect. What if I lose him and he circles back around and goes right back in the house? Unlikely but possible. Then, while I'm outside playing grabazz in the bushes, he has the run of my home and family.....

Nah, I stay in the place I'm able to mount the best defense I can: my home. The cops can have the job of "playing cops".
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Old July 2, 2009, 10:32 AM   #144
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How many posters does it take to realize most of the arguments/opinions put forth rely on speculations about what actually happened?
Most, if not all, of us realize that we are responding to a hypothetical that is based on an actual incident. We assume certain facts to make the hypothetical complete. That doesn't mean it's not a useful exercise. After all we are not sitting as the jury and are not in fact deciding the actual fate of the actors in the actual incident.

For example, sentiments like the following are often voiced on this board:

Quote:
What if the dirt bag decides to come back later for revenge for confronting him? Maybe he brings a couple buddies, etc. It is certainly possible.
No, this needs to end here and now.
This is a sentiment that needs addressing. If the purpose of ending it "here and now" is self-defense, posters need to be told that self-defense is not available to prevent future harm and therefore someone who decides to ends it "here and now" may be found guilty of criminal homicide. Even if the person who makes such a post is not deterred, others reading reasoned rebuttals of tough guy talk may conform their conduct to the law.
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Old July 2, 2009, 10:52 AM   #145
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Self defense not available to prevent future harm

Went to school with a girl whose dad did a stint in prison for either manslaughter or lesser homicide. Some dirtbag had threatened to harm the girl to retaliate for some perceived harm done him by the father. The father took him seriously, and killed the guy to prevent him from coming back later to follow up on his threat.

While the threat may have been believable, it wasn't imminent, and preventive self-defense/defense of loved ones didn't fly in court.
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Old July 2, 2009, 11:39 AM   #146
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Quote:
For example, sentiments like the following are often voiced on this board:


Quote:
What if the dirt bag decides to come back later for revenge for confronting him? Maybe he brings a couple buddies, etc. It is certainly possible.
No, this needs to end here and now.
This is a sentiment that needs addressing. If the purpose of ending it "here and now" is self-defense, posters need to be told that self-defense is not available to prevent future harm and therefore someone who decides to ends it "here and now" may be found guilty of criminal homicide. Even if the person who makes such a post is not deterred, others reading reasoned rebuttals of tough guy talk may conform their conduct to the law.
Copying and pasting because it bears repeating---again and again.
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Old July 2, 2009, 12:47 PM   #147
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Another possibility

We do not have enough information so far to determine what happened. But for those who are quick to condemn the two men for vigilante justice, what about this...

The man had been drinking at a local bar. Suppose he got angry with another patron and decided to settle the issue with a bullet. Since he has no gun himself, he decides to visit someone that he knows has several guns. Suppose he asks the people he knows for a gun, but they refuse. So he breaks in, grabs a gun, and heads back for the bar. The two brothers race after him to try to calm him down and talk him out of his intent to kill someone at the bar. (That would be referred to as "tracking" and not "pursuing" or "hunting down for vigilante justice.") The man refused to back down from his intent - he became a threat to a 3rd party. At that point, suppose the brother pulled his gun to stop the man from his stated intent. The thief, in a drunken state, imagined himself to be Jesse James and tried a quick-draw. The brother then shot the man in self-defense.

The two brothers had every right to be there. Whether they were pursuing a man they had seen commit a crime (legal in Texas), tracking the man down to talk him out of his intended action, or following him to make a good witness, the two brothers had the right to be there. It remains to be seen whether they had the right to shoot the man - were they in pursuit of a man who committed a crime, were they following the man to give the police an account, or were they following the man to seek revenge? If the other man had the gun in plain sight, then the brother had the legal right to defend himself. But perhaps they knew the man had stolen their gun, so they knew he was a danger, both to themselves and to others.

Having said all of that, why did they not call the police immediately? That makes their actions look suspicious! But in Texas, there are many ways the shooting would have been self-defense, and only a few ways that it would not. We can say they were foolish to "track the intruder down," but perhaps they did not think the man would use the gun on them (especially if they knew him). So let's keep discussing the tactics and what we would do, but let's wait before we pronounce the two men guilty (and there may be plenty of time for that).
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Old July 2, 2009, 01:03 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by RevJim
Since he has no gun himself, he decides to visit someone that he knows has several guns. Suppose he asks the people he knows for a gun, but they refuse. So he breaks in, grabs a gun, and heads back for the bar.
...Which raises another point: it's probably not the best idea to leave guns lying around where someone who knows you have them can bust in, grab one, and dash off again. If the gun in question had been locked up, none of this need have happened.

I know this is yet more speculation, which isn't what this thread needs, but the facts as given do suggest that the gun the fellow stole was lying around in plain sight, or (at best) in a drawer or some other location he knew about. The "tactical" lesson here isn't too hard to figure, I don't think: lock them up, keep them on you, or at the very least, don't boast about where you keep them to barroom acquaintances...
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Old July 2, 2009, 06:51 PM   #149
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What if the dirt bag decides to come back later for revenge for confronting him?
Why does this come up so often?

Is anyone naive enough to believe this is a legitimate question you get to ask ?

Just so everyone is crystal clear on this subject...

You cannot legally use this as a defense, you cannot (IMO) Morally justify this as a defense.


"What if he comes back ?" is no more valid than "What if the sky falls ?" is. You likely will fail miserably if you go to court and tell a jury "I shot him in self defense because I was afraid he might retaliate" or if you pursue him due to that fear, and then claim " I was chasing him to effect a citizens arrest, he pulled a weapon and I had to defend myself"

All this "citizens arrest" hoopla is a fantasy. While it could be construed as legal, your defense of it will be "difficult" at best.

While the basic tenets of law assume that the prosecution has the burden of proof "beyond a reasonable doubt" Do not believe that the real judicial system works that way. A Jury is simply clay, waiting to be formed. You are not at the mercy of 12, but of two lawyers.
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Old July 2, 2009, 08:48 PM   #150
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They murdered that man.

They took a gamble of tracking him down and confronting him and lost. This is what the police are for. They were not in immediate danger and should not have pursued and confronted the bad guy. Confronted is the key word, there is no way to prove how the confrontation went down, who drawed first. The dead guy could have been scared for his life not having any idea who the other two guys were.

Had this scenario unfolded in the house or on their property I would of sided the other way.
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