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Old June 29, 2009, 03:25 PM   #26
Mike Irwin
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" The coordinates are for the cruise missiles if you get ornery."

They need to order a few up...
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Old June 29, 2009, 03:29 PM   #27
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"fewer laws would get passed, which is a good thing. Fewer laws= more freedom."

I'm glad that you think so.

In fact, the opposite might well be true.

With such a large and unweidly congress, the reverse might be true. While few laws might get passed, those that are passed might be so pervasive and so all-encompassing that it would make the current law structure seem like a bargain.

The analogy comes from baseball.

If you're swinging from the heels with every pitch trying to hit home runs, you're going to strike out a lot.

But when you actually connect with one, it's going to be one hell of a blast.
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Old June 29, 2009, 04:07 PM   #28
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and fewer laws would get passed, which is a good thing. Fewer laws= more freedom.
I think it depends slightly more on which laws are passed, not how many there are...

Most current Congresspeople (with a few notable exceptions) vote in the interests of their major campaign donors, not in the interests of their constituents; the "freedom" of the latter isn't their major concern. One benefit of some ungodly increase in their number might be that the $$ would have to be spread a lot thinner. (Well, I can dream... )

Hey kids! Instead of fretting about the census, let's all write letters to our Senators and Representatives about (fill in the issue of your choice)! Let's tell 'em we really mean it, and vote accordingly in the next election.

Quote:
If you're swinging from the heels with every pitch trying to hit home runs, you're going to strike out a lot.
I don't think I buy the analogy, Mike. If every hit depended on working out a compromise among hundreds of hitters, they'd only ever bunt, and that not very often...
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Old June 29, 2009, 05:20 PM   #29
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I'm glad that you think so.

In fact, the opposite might well be true.
Every law passed, by its very nature, restricts a freedom that was previously held. Some restrict freedoms of one to the benefit of another- for example laws against stealing. That law protects one person's property from another by removing the freedom to steal.

The vast majority of laws passed in the last 100 years do not fall in to this category.
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Old June 29, 2009, 05:26 PM   #30
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"If every hit depended on working out a compromise among hundreds of hitters, they'd only ever bunt, and that not very often..."

Or, everyone would pile in amazing amounts of crap as both adjuncts to the bill and as riders, especially riders.

If there are only going to be 3 or maybe 5 laws passed in a legislative session, you think the're just going to be tiny little piddling things?

What would be the drawback to driving in as much as possible in such a bill?

Not much, really.

There's no line item veto, so just as today a bill that the President wants might be weighed down with lots of stuff he doesn't. But, he really wants the primary item, so he might well sign it just to get that, or maybe never get it again.

In re-examination, though, I really don't think there would be all that much difference if the legislature were 1,200 or so members.

Why?

Because we still have a two-party system, and I don't see that changing much no matter how much you increase the size of the governing body.

Sure, you might get a few third-party candidates in, especially from the really psycho fringe areas of California where the Green Party simply isn't green enough.

But what would that accomplish? They'd be isolated, unproductive, and completely out of touch. They would have enough punch to make anyone want to caucus with them, much less ally openly with them.
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Old June 29, 2009, 05:29 PM   #31
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"Freedom to steal..."

That's funny, I don't recall seeing in any of our foundation documents anything even remotely like "the pursuit of life, liberty, and the five-fingered discount."

That analogy is flawed on its very face because it's well proven that people who intend to break the law in some manner are not deterred by laws that make such behavior illegal.

If you're already going to steal, your freedom isn't abridged because you don't give a damn one way or the other.
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Old June 29, 2009, 05:29 PM   #32
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That said, the census bureau is heavily restricted in what it can do with information people provide:
I feel very reassured now that ACORN is going to assist in data collection.
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Old June 30, 2009, 01:21 PM   #33
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From the OP

Lots of Comment!!

Now,we have established that non-compliance could result in a $5000 fine.I don't have a yellow sheet in front of me,and I don't know if being charged with breaking a federal law with a maximum penalty of $5000 could potentially tieup a background check.

There is a woman Senator(I think) who has this issue on her website.I think she is in Washington State.Among the questions on the long questionaire,to be administered by Acorn(can a felon work for ACORN) are the names and phone numbers of all in the household,what hour/minute do you leave for work? What hour/minute do you return home?They do not ask,"Are you a US citizen?

I believe in choosing battles wisely,but not being a doormat.It would be great if a few million Americans said "No"

But,it would be terrible if they failed the next background check

My capacity to think "Oh,there is nothing to worry about,they wouldn't do that...."
Is rapidly evaporating.
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Old June 30, 2009, 01:43 PM   #34
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Given ACORN's recent history, I would be concerned that their involvement in census-taking might be an easy way to collect names for voter registration.
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Old June 30, 2009, 03:41 PM   #35
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That's funny, I don't recall seeing in any of our foundation documents anything even remotely like "the pursuit of life, liberty, and the five-fingered discount."
Every April 15, you are required to report to the government that is employed by your countrymen every cent you made over the previous year, so that they can determine how much of it they will take.

If one man takes my money it is stealing, if 1,000's do it, it is called taxes. What you call it does not change the fact that you are taking something of value that isn't yours.

Anyhow, the census no longer uses the long form. Instead, they are using the "American Community Survey."
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Old July 1, 2009, 12:54 AM   #36
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"If one man takes my money it is stealing, if 1,000's do it, it is called taxes. What you call it does not change the fact that you are taking something of value that isn't yours."



OK, so you've identified the "crime" that is being perpetrated against you.

Why aren't you:

1. Reporting said "crime" to the police and demanding that the police arrest the perpetrators of said "crime"?

2. If the police aren't willing to help you, why aren't you exercising your Second Amendment rights to defend yourself against the perpetrators of said "crime"?

Come on! Rise up! Defend yourself! Be a man and show them who's boss when it comes to your money!

Could it be that you're actually not enough of a fool to actually claim that taxation under the laws of the United States, as passed by the duly elected representatives to our various governmental bodies, is actually a "crime" in the manner in which you're portraying it?

So much Constitution thumping goes on in these forums.

Well, here's a little tidbit straight out of the Constitution...

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises..."

Note how that doesn't say:

"The Congress shall use the bully power of the Federal Government to unilaterally steal the bread from the working man's mouth..."

Jesus wept...
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Old July 1, 2009, 01:10 AM   #37
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There is a woman Senator(I think) who has this issue on her website.I think she is in Washington State.Among the questions on the long questionaire,to be administered by Acorn(can a felon work for ACORN) are the names and phone numbers of all in the household,what hour/minute do you leave for work? What hour/minute do you return home?They do not ask,"Are you a US citizen?
I believe you're referring to Congresswoman Michele Bachmann, representing Minnesota's 6th congressional district.
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Old July 1, 2009, 08:52 AM   #38
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Street names change, even house numbers on houses on streets can change over time. But GPS coordinates are static.

By cross mapping GPS coordinates to streets and houses, records can be updated FAR faster, and maintained far more quickly, accurately, and ultimately cheaply.
+1. The other reason is that the census can be checked by overlaying the GPS coordinates on georeferenced aerial photographs. This is easily done with readily available GIS software. An auditor could readily check whether any areas were undercounted or overcounted by simply looking at which houses are marked on the photo.

GPS also makes it a lot harder for a dishonest census taker to sit on their couch and fill out bogus census forms while watching "Law & Order SVU" reruns and sipping Miller Lite. If he or she has to hike to each house and log the GPS coordinates, it makes it a lot less tempting to commit fraud.

If this seems ominous, keep in mind that many large cities and urban property tax appraisal agencies already have GIS systems with a lot more data in them than what the census bureau will have. Welcome to the 21st century.
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Old July 1, 2009, 11:00 AM   #39
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I will await my census form... I will then answer the questions about population honestly and will further honestly answer every other question with the appropriate answer... "NOT APPLICABLE"...
Definition...
Quote:
1. An official, usually periodic enumeration of a population, often including the collection of related demographic information.
I guess the ages of those living here is "related demographic information"... If they need any publicly available info, they know where to find it... If it isn't public info... well, then it is private isn't it?
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Old July 2, 2009, 07:55 AM   #40
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Come on! Rise up! Defend yourself! Be a man and show them who's boss when it comes to your money!
"accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."

Quote:
Well, here's a little tidbit straight out of the Constitution...

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises..."
don't forget the rest:

and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

don't tell you that you believe that the rest of that sentence is being followed? As they are wont to do, the politicians have corrupted the meaning of 'general welfare' to mean anything and everything.

The fact that representatives are no longer in proportion destroys the apportionment rule that is found in Article 1, Section 2, Clause 3. The income tax was not unconstitutional before the Sixteenth Amendment unless it was misapplied, as was done with Pollock v. Farmers' Loan and Trust. The Sixteenth Amendment made the apportionment rule inapplicable to income taxes, including taxes on income derived from property, by providing that Congress has the power to tax incomes from any source without having to apportion the tax by population.
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Old July 4, 2009, 09:26 AM   #41
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On an associated note, when my wife and I had to file all the paperwork involved in having a baby....Yes, many pages asking all kinds of stuff that was none of their biz.


We decided to use the 'Other' option as much as possible, when asked about family descent - we hand wrote in 'American'.


I have no reason not to use the same methodology when filling out a census.
Not lying, just not giving them their 'In the Box' answers.
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Old July 4, 2009, 11:00 AM   #42
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Wouldn't the 5th hold up if they ask incriminating questions?

I mean for instance if you or a member of your family lied on your taxes and a question would expose it and incriminate you or a family member who went along with it would that not be a violation of the 5th?

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Old July 4, 2009, 07:16 PM   #43
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"Street names change, even house numbers on houses on streets can change over time. But GPS coordinates are static."

Not quite, remember the tectonic plates are moving. Hard to tell how many millimeters off one's GPS coordinates might be by the time of the next census.
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Old July 11, 2009, 12:52 PM   #44
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I'm with teeroux. A lot of the questions could probably be circumvented by pleeding the fifth. The beauty of the fifth is you do not need to explain why your evoking that right, because an explaination could expose information that could be used criminaly against you.

The census, as far as I'm concerned, need only know how many people are in my house. Other than that my answeres may include, but not limited to, N/A, 4th or 5th ammendment, private info not public.
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Old July 11, 2009, 01:15 PM   #45
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FWIW

I'm 55 and have been through 3 censuses as head of a household and have never answered any questions beyond 'how many people live here?' . No forms, no signatures, none of the stuff mentioned above. I'm puzzled.

Is all this a new type of census?
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Old July 11, 2009, 01:24 PM   #46
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Yep, the New World Order under the new administration.
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Old July 11, 2009, 01:30 PM   #47
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No one has ever been fined or jailed for failure to comply.

I wonder if the Bureau is afraid to go to trial as they may fail.

AFS
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Old July 12, 2009, 08:31 PM   #48
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Is this going anywhere beyond vague Black Heliocopters using GPS to land in your backyard and take you to Area 51?

Let's see if we can make it a legit L and CR or else the evil forces will force us to close it.
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Old July 12, 2009, 08:40 PM   #49
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Conspiracy noise

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Old July 12, 2009, 08:57 PM   #50
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Why all the worry about ACORN??

More noise

Last edited by Glenn E. Meyer; July 13, 2009 at 09:06 AM. Reason: Close to the edge
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