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Old June 29, 2009, 11:49 AM   #26
stargazer65
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Vanya posted:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cloud8a
Also, any time we are gone, under any circumstance, especially if the twelve year old is to be left alone for ANY amount of time, the safe is locked, the door to the bathroom closet is locked, and our bedroom door itself is deadbolted.
Am I missing something here? You're (rightly) concerned about keeping your kids safe, i.e. away from your guns, and you think you need more or less instant access to a gun while you are at home... But you're OK with leaving your twelve year old home alone, with the guns locked up (as they should be!)?

If you're relaxed enough about what might happen, in terms of break-ins, etc., to leave your child home alone, why are you so worried about what might happen while you're there?
Cloud8a did not post that comment that you quoted. That was someone else.

Anyway, we have small kids also. Right now, we have no handguns but we have long guns with cable locks, the keys are on my person and with the wife. We intend to get a quick access gun vault now before we even get a handgun. We're going to put the "tactical shotgun" keys in there. I realize this is not the quickest but we feel it is our safest bet right now. When we get a handgun that of course will go in the gun vault when it's not on our person. We've been educating the kids, let them safely handle the guns, and will be shooting with them to remove the mystery.

If you have anything to spare right now, you could as an option, sell a "non-tactical" gun to get the quick access gun vault you need.
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Old June 29, 2009, 03:35 PM   #27
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stargazer65

You're right - thanks for catching that. I wasn't paying attention -- I withdraw the question, as addressed to cloud8a. But I still think it's a reasonable question, in general, to ask anyone with a kid that age and guns in the house...
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Old June 29, 2009, 04:31 PM   #28
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But I still think it's a reasonable question, in general, to ask anyone with a kid that age and guns in the house...
It is a reasonable question and it might be a good topic for another thread. How should your teenagers defend themselves if they are at home alone. In the old days it would have been the same way adults did, with the use of a gun. What do you think?
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Old June 29, 2009, 05:20 PM   #29
Vanya
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How should your teenagers defend themselves if they are at home alone.
Not quite the question I was asking, but that probably would be a good topic for another thread; it was touched on recently here, and addressed a while back in this one. The short answer is that it would depend entirely on what sort of teenager it was, but I'd say that for most teenagers, especially young ones, the default should be "set off alarm, go to safe room, call 911." But don't let's hijack this thread...

Back on topic, more or less, I've been wracking my brain to try to remember the source of an article I came across a few years ago in which a parent (a mom I think) did her own "consumer research" on the child-resistance of handgun lockboxes and such, by giving her kid a screwdriver and a prybar, some common models of lockbox, and telling him to have at it. The results were not encouraging, as I recall.

Anyone else remember this/know where to find it? Pax?
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Old June 29, 2009, 05:26 PM   #30
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I'm sure it been said but the best thing for you is to keep the gun on your hip. When I go to my mom and dads on the weekend there are at least 3 children there, my little brother and my nieces. I don't even feel safe leaving it in the car. I do keep a lock box there but I just prefer to keep it near at all times. The next best thing to do is to make sure the little guys know gun safety. My little brother is more intimated by guns than he is intrigued. He goes shooting and enjoys it but is to cautious to mess with them. Despite that, I always make sure its on me and secured when he is around.
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Old June 30, 2009, 03:52 PM   #31
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OP - My thoughts are as follows. If you've got kids who you feel might pick up the weapon they ought to be taught not to screw around with weapons and not to feel tempted to, either. You've then got to trust they'll apply their knowledge regarding why guns can be dangerous.

In the event of a burglary/armed robbery/home invasion trying to open a safe which is locked via keys isn't a great idea. Same goes for a combination safe.

You could lose the keys/forget the combo/or have a mechanical fault. All of which would mean you can't get access to your firearm when you need it.

Electronic safes are a much better option, since it only requires punching in, generally speaking a four digit code. Since the code can't be forgotten and can be randomised to prevent access to a child or novice thief who reckons everyone is dumb enough to use the year they were born as a code.

Until you've got enough dough to spend on a Gun Vault I'd buy a cheap electronic safe. Just my thoughts though.
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Old June 30, 2009, 08:59 PM   #32
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Show your kids the gun to eleminate the curiosity. I am in favor with your idea of hiding the mag under your pillow; when you are awake keep the mag with you.
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Old July 1, 2009, 08:18 AM   #33
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Quote:
"Neighbor of ours had keys for his safe. Kept them hidden.

Had a very trust worthy son. Eagle scout, straight A's.

Son found figured out where the keys were.

Had a bad day and ended it.

Bet dad wishes he did a better job of securing his guns."
I could be wrong but don't most kids obtain the rank of eagle scout at 17 or 18?
at that age if a kid wants to kill himself he'll find a way.

on another note (I have posted this before so sorry if this is a rehash)
I also have small kids and my solution was to mount heavy duty pipe hangers in my closet above the inside of the door like a gun rack and have zip tied my shotgun to them in a manner were it CAN NOT be racked. I have put a slight score on the hangers so they will break in a certain spot and they break under my weight (200 and some change). when they break it frees up the zip ties and the gun is rackable, the drawback to this is my wife doesn't weigh enough (thankfully) to free the gun easily. the other nice thing is that the hangers are cheap so you can afford to try a few diffrent ways and sizes so you know what will work for you. everything else stays in the safe.
here is what the hangers look like
http://www.made-in-china.com/image/2...-LW-00101-.jpg
those arent as heavy duty as what I used but you get the idea.
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Old July 2, 2009, 12:19 AM   #34
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http://www.gunvault.com/
if you can't afford the safe don't buy the gun
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Old July 2, 2009, 12:50 AM   #35
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All of these Ideas are great. Thank you for your help.

Until I get the dough to purchase a more efficient safe I have decided to do this. (leaving for a Seattle vacation Friday and all funds going for that).

I will Keep my weapon unloaded close by but hidden. I will sleep in shorts that have a back pocket zipper, and keep the magazine in my back pocket zipped up while I sleep. Discomfort is not a factor to me.

My children are aware of the dangers of guns, but since they are my children I will never be satisfied with their awareness. If one pro gun owner can have a ND, then my kid who I have pounded in their brain gun safety, can have one too.

Still, I would like to hear from folks that might have a problem with even this. I am not hard headed about this subject in any way. Although If you say not to buy the gun if you cannot afford the electronic safe, It is too late for that. I did buy the key safe but do not like it. Let me know beyond that.
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Old July 2, 2009, 09:46 PM   #36
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Rule #1. Kids will find it.

Rule #2. Kids will open it.

Rule #3. Kids will play with it.


As soon as they are old enough teach them about guns and to respect them.
I realize you can't afford a safe at the moment.
But, consider getting a cheap safe w/ dual combination and key lock. While your kids may manage to find your keys and open that curious lock box you have hidden away. It would be allot harder for them to figure out your combination and find your keys at the same time. You can find these for relatively cheap for the peace of mind they offer.
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Old July 2, 2009, 10:24 PM   #37
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cloud8a,

You have to choose your risk. Here's how I see what you're saying. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Risk no. 1 is an intruder will enter the house even though it is occupied and you won't be able to get to the safe and unlock it in time.

Risk no. 2 is that one of your kids will find the unloaded gun and will also somehow have access to ammunition. You don't say whether you keep all the ammo locked up, but even if you do, it's possible to drop a cartridge one day, have it roll out of sight, and be found by someone who is a lot closer to the ground.

Risk no. 3 is that a burglar could find your gun and steal it.

For me, risk no. 2 outweighs risk no. 1. Where I live, it's extremely unlikely to have a home invasion. You may live in a worse neighborhood, but since you don't have the funds to buy a safe, why do you think that your house would be such an irresistible target for a thief that he would break in while it's occupied? If that did occur, however, you still might be able to retrieve your gun from the locked safe in a timely fashion. Risk no. 3 also would impel me to lock up the gun.

I'd rather keep the safe key with me (sleeping with the safe key in my pocket rather than a loaded magazine) than leave the gun in an unsecured location.
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Old July 2, 2009, 10:37 PM   #38
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I carry at home and I keep the keys to my gunsafe on me. My wife chooses not to carry at home (there's a thread around here somewhere on the subject).

Our compromise is one of these lockboxes mounted in the closet with a 3" SP101 in it. She can get into that safe in seconds. It ain't perfect, but it's the best we could come up with given her choice not to carry on her person.
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Old July 3, 2009, 02:51 AM   #39
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Wow....I didn't expect everyone to jump all over me for stating that I ever left my twelve year old home alone...

Do none of you EVER EVER leave your teenage kids home alone? I'm the only one?

Yes. I do occasionally leave mine, for maybe an hour, max, Maybe just while we run to the store or something, at times she would rather stay home. She is mature, and old enough to be trusted, but darn sure not old enough to be trusted unsupervised with a loaded firearm, and there's no way I will leave a firearm out while she is alone, thats just nuts! THATS why my safe, bathroom, and bedroom doors are locked when I'm gone. Do some of you really trust your kids that much?!

I would rather leave her with a fully armed PHONE, very protective testosterone fueled male Boxer, and the two neighbors that I usually ask to keep an eye out on her and the house.

So, some of you said, if I EVER leave my teenage child alone, then I have no buisiness ever needing or owning a gun?

I don't get it.....

Maybe I'm just reading something wrong.....
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Old July 3, 2009, 06:16 AM   #40
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Quote:
Wal-Mart sells a lock-box with a digital keypad in their home-office department for around $30. It's plenty big enough to hold two handguns and extra magazines. (More if you wanted to just stack them on top of each other). I've got two and programmed them with the same 4-digit combination. One is on the nightstand and one is in a downstairs closet. I haven't bolted them down but there are holes in the boxes for just that purpose.
Is this the lockbox you mentioned? If not, would you post the model you have? (The one below sells for $78.00). Thanks!

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/produ...ct_id=11071342
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Old July 3, 2009, 08:20 AM   #41
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dude no offense but i just read you talking about the money to get one. put it on a credit card or something...be responsible about it.
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Old July 3, 2009, 09:04 AM   #42
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I will Keep my weapon unloaded close by but hidden. I will sleep in shorts that have a back pocket zipper, and keep the magazine in my back pocket zipped up while I sleep. Discomfort is not a factor to me.
That seems reasonable if you keep the magazine on your person and there are no other magazines accessible. Don't get lazy about it though. I assume you will keep the gun on your person when you are not sleeping. I still think that you could find a way to get a quick access safe that you would like.
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Old July 3, 2009, 09:20 AM   #43
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Owens187 wrote:
Quote:
Wow....I didn't expect everyone to jump all over me for stating that I ever left my twelve year old home alone...

Do none of you EVER EVER leave your teenage kids home alone? I'm the only one?
Yes we leave them alone sometimes (my 13 yr old is the babysitter) and the firearms are locked and inaccessible to them as required by law here for under 16. We just have them lock the doors, don't leave the house, don't answer the door or the phone for anyone except us or immediate family members. They are trained for emergencies. We live in a good neighborhood but I suppose anything could happen anywhere. It's a scary thought to think they might be harmed by an intruder, but the honest truth is they are more likely to be hurt riding their bikes on the street and I let them do that.
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Old July 3, 2009, 10:21 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Owens187
So, some of you said, if I EVER leave my teenage child alone, then I have no buisiness ever needing or owning a gun?
Owens, no one said that -- I certainly didn't. My point was to ask why someone wouldn't be comfortable at home themselves (with phone, dog, and attentive neighbors, if you like -- all good!), with their guns locked up (and a key right to hand), IF they felt comfortable leaving a twelve-year-old home alone under the same conditions (minus the key)?

If it's good enough for the twelve-year-old, why not for the whole family?

In fact, I think your precautions sound pretty good... but having the keys in the safe locks when you're home still seems a bit of a risk, compared to a locked safe and the key around your neck, or even a locked safe and a holstered gun on your person.
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Old July 3, 2009, 11:00 AM   #45
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[quote]
Phantom,
Yep, train the kids.
AND lock the guns up when they're not under the conscious control of a responsible adult.
Don't bet your kids' lives on them being perfect when you're not around!!
When someone fails to lock up their firearms when not in use, they are betting their child's life that the child will always be perfect and will never make a mistake.
When someone fails to teach their child about firearms from an early age, they are betting their child's life that the adults around him will never make a mistake.
Don't bet your children's lives on having the world's first perfect family ...
pax
[end quote]

Howdy Pax,

Right on target!

I keep two 1911 "house guns" out of the big gun safes in touch pad lock boxes that are securely bolted down, one to the 250# headboard of my bed, the other to the fireplace mantle in the family room. My two big gun safes are always locked, except when I am directly overseeing one, say doing routine cleaning and maintenance. My boys were raised with guns, and were safe shooters by the time they were 8, but unlike house breaking a puppy, I never gave them a chance to make a mistake. Teach and train the kids right, but never, ever, give them a chance to make a mistake. By the time Chris, my oldest, was 12 I could ask him to get the Browning OU out of the safe in the hall closet so I could clean it, and he would fetch it back to my work bench, with the action open, and fingers outside of the trigger guard. My boys are grown and gone now with families of their own, and are teaching their kids to be gun safe, the way they were taught, and it should go on like this for generations.
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Old July 3, 2009, 11:34 AM   #46
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Rather than a secure container with a key lock, you might try to locate a push button lock. You could lose the key or have trouble opening the lock with the key if excited.





There is an option to set a combination where you press two keys simultaneously. This raises the possible combinations available and should help defeat someone trying to randomly gain access as they might not consider pressing two keys at the same time.

I've had this box for about 20 years and can't remember who made it or sold it. The dimensions are about 18" x 18" x 6". You can open it in complete darkness by touch.
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Old July 3, 2009, 11:57 AM   #47
Ricky B
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Quote:
Wow....I didn't expect everyone to jump all over me for stating that I ever left my twelve year old home alone...
Welcome to discussions on the internet!

And yes, depending on the maturity and nature of the child, 12 can be an appropriate age to leave a child alone, particularly a girl. Many parents hire 13 year old girls to be baby-sitters.
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Old July 3, 2009, 12:25 PM   #48
rantingredneck
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Quote:
Is this the lockbox you mentioned?
Here are a couple of lockboxes I use:

Stackon brand, sells for about 50-60 bucks at Dick's or Gander Mountain or the like:







Pro's: Very solid construction with heavy duty locking bolts. Small and easy to hide.

Con's: So small that maneuvering a handgun in or out is tricky if it's a full size revolver or automatic. 4" GP100 or Ruger P-Series size gun is maxing it out. (3" SP101 pictured in safe).


Honeywell model that Walmart sells for about 30 bucks:







Pro's: Good size. Can get guns in and out quickly without banging up fingers or guns. Will easily accomodate truck gun +2 extra mags and allows me to place a layer of foam over the top so I can secure my carry gun when I'm going into NPE's.

Con's: Lock is not nearly as sturdy as the above Stack On model. One bolt only and it's not of the same quality. Hopefully it's enough to discourage or slow down the typical smash and grab guy.
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Old July 5, 2009, 08:32 PM   #49
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Home defense gun and kids -- here is how I handle it.

1. One and only one firearm is "quickly" accessible. "Quickly" for me means a pushbutton handgun safe most of the time.

This is still a lot slower than having the gun on the hip. The hip is probably the most secure place for it, too. Just food for thought.

I strongly prefer the simplex mechanical locks like Mello2u has pictured. I used to use a Gunvault but we had a power glitch during a storm and, despite using both AC and a battery backup, the combination reset. I didn't realize it until a few days later. Imagine if I'd needed the gun one of those nights

All other guns are stored in a more traditional gun safe. The key stays on one key ring that stays under my control. The other key is locked away.

2. Teach the kids. I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all approach to this. The message needs to be tailored to the kids' understanding, attitude, and maturity. I'm striving to cultivate healthy respect for firearms rather than a "forbidden fruit" mentality.

The way I see it, they're going to learn about guns -- are they going to learn from me or Hollywood?
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Old July 8, 2009, 11:02 PM   #50
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Quote:
Teach the kids. I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all approach to this. The message needs to be tailored to the kids' understanding, attitude, and maturity. I'm striving to cultivate healthy respect for firearms rather than a "forbidden fruit" mentality.
I totally agree! And, as an update, I have now purchased a handgun box with a push button digital keypad, so no more key worries for me. So much better. The emergency override key stays on my keyring which is constantly under my control/on my person, and the spare is locked up, along with the keys to the other safe, which now serves as an ammo safe.
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