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Old June 27, 2009, 09:00 PM   #1
cgeorgan
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Michigan CCW - Couple of Questions

Hi to all!

NEW to this forum, definitely not new to the wonderful world of armaments.

Anyways, my question is this (with background):

I recently received my CCW in the State of Michigan. Specifically, I live in Washtenaw County *and* - more specifically - right off of the University of Michigan campus.

It is not clear to me what the rules are regarding concealed carry *on* the campus itself, as it is quite big and hard to avoid if you live in Ann Arbor. I am not a student, so I will not be entering any University buildings or classrooms - I will only be on the "campus", loosely defined as walking around the Diag, the outside of various buildings, etc.

Would I be in violation of the Michigan CCW laws regarding carrying on school grounds in this regard?

Second - regarding "concealed" carry": Exactly how "concealed" must my handgun be? For example, if I have a matte-finished blued handgun, and it's in the outside mesh pocket of a black bag, is that still "concealed"? Take it a step further (since I've read a lot about open carry) - Am I even required to conceal my handgun? I have no moral or ethical issue with people seeing my piece, though it's not there for the purposes of being seen.

LASTLY - and this is slightly off topic - I'm considering purchasing one of the HK P7 series handguns (I currently own the USP .40 compact). Anybody have experience with these, and ideas of where I can find a (preferably) used P7M13? Can you even find those anymore in the US if you're not part of law enforcement?

Kind Regards and thanks in advance! Also, sorry if this has been answered before; I did a search but this is such an active forum there are a LOT of different threads.
CG
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Old June 29, 2009, 09:30 AM   #2
jfrey123
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This ought to get you started... Right off the bat it looks like carry in a school or property is a no-no (although they have an exception for parking lots?)

I recommend you look at the actual laws and interpret them your way, this page I'm linking you to is just someone else's interpretation as well.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/michigan.pdf

Here's another from the NRA:
http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/MISL.pdf



Regarding the mesh bag, I don't believe OC is legal in your state... If you're carrying concealed, it probably needs to be fully concealed and out of view of the public.
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Old June 29, 2009, 10:15 AM   #3
Les Auten
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Hello cgeorgan
I do not completely understand the legalities of it but UofM, MSU, and I believe Wayne State have the right to restrict firearms that other colleges do not.
UofM does not allow gun possession even with a CPL.

MSU recently eased restrictions.
As for concealing, open carry is legal in MI but you may get harassed by those who do not realize this.
The best place I've found for discussion of MI gun rights and laws is
http://www.migunowners.org/

ps just a heads up, If you call your permit a CCW there are a couple of anal retentive members who WILL inform you that CCW is the crime of carrying without a permit and a CPL is the actual permit. Same as those who feel the need to correct a person who uses the word clip instead of magazine.
Hope to see you over there. I go by the user name thumbody on that forum
You must also register and login to see some of the subforums such as open carry.
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Old July 1, 2009, 12:23 PM   #4
Sefner
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Just to play devil's advocate here, it was my understanding that U of M is not a "school" as defined by law but rather a university. This happens for a few reasons, but the main reason is that the campus is so integrated into the city of Ann Arbor. For instance, there are HOMES (and private businesses for that matter) on the campus, and the University sure as hell can't deny those people the right to carry just because every time they step out their door they are "on campus". Whereas a "school" is usually a single building and property. Also, check your PM cgeorgan

EDIT: Did some research, while a "school" and "university" are different, Michigan in particular expressly prohibits carrying by permitted persons in college buildings. The law states that carrying is prohibited in "A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university." This does NOT say on the grounds like OP is wanting to do. Although I can see it becoming a huge debacle if OP is caught, especially on the University of Michigan's campus.


Source: Chapter 28, Act 372 of 1927, Section 28.425o. Amended

Last edited by Sefner; July 1, 2009 at 01:03 PM.
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Old July 1, 2009, 10:50 PM   #5
Les Auten
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Links found in a thread on MI gunowners
http://www.migunowners.org/forum/sho...ht=UofM+campus (you may need to register and login to view this thread)
A crime to carry on U-M Campus?
I missed the earlier thread about the change in MSU's policy with respect to guns. http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=53156

But I noticed in the Freep story that it said that, unlike other state schools that have administrative regulations against guns on campus, one can go to jail for up to 60 days for having a gun on the U of M campus. I understand that the constitutional autonomy of the U of M, MSU, and Wayne State create an open question about the effect of state preemption on those institutions. However, I was surprised to see that the U of M claims the authority not simply to ban guns (and therefore subject students and faculty to discipline if they violate it, or give the authorities the power to eject anyone who violates the rule), but also to impose criminal sanctions.

Does anyone familiar with the powers of these universities know where they would get the authority to actually define certain behavior as criminal?


Links provided showing the MI Constitution grants te Boards of Regents at these 3 schools the power to enact rules of conduct etc.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(ctx.../mcl-390-5.pdf

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(ctx...mcl-19-141.pdf

Also found on migunowners
STATE CONSTITUTION (EXCERPT)

CONSTITUTION OF MICHIGAN OF 1963


ยง 5 University of Michigan, Michigan State University, Wayne State University; controlling

boards.


Sec. 5. The regents of the University of Michigan and their successors in office shall constitute a body corporate known as the Regents of the University of Michigan; the trustees of Michigan State University and their successors in office shall constitute a body corporate known as the Board of Trustees of Michigan State University; the governors of Wayne State University and their successors in office shall constitute a body corporate known as the Board of Governors of Wayne State University. Each board shall have general supervision of its institution and the control and direction of all expenditures from the institution's funds. Each board shall, as often as necessary, elect a president of the institution under its supervision. He shall be the principal executive officer of the institution, be ex-officio a member of the board without the right to vote and preside at meetings of the board. The board of each institution shall consist of eight members who shall hold office for terms of eight years and who shall be elected as provided by law. The governor shall fill board vacancies by appointment. Each appointee shall hold office until a successor has been nominated and elected as provided by law.
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Old July 1, 2009, 10:56 PM   #6
Les Auten
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Another thread discussing carry on MSU, UofM and Wayne State

http://www.migunowners.org/forum/sho...ht=UofM+campus

From post #10
Below is the preemption law in part and an opinion of Sgt. Deasy of the MSP on campus carry.

PREEMPTION LAW in part: In 1990, the Michigan legislature enacted MCL 123.1102 which provides, in pertinent part: A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

CAMPUS CARRY:
The preemption law to which you're referring can be found in MCL 123.1102. That statute generally prohibits a local unit of government from regulating firearms. However, colleges and universities are not local units of government for the purposes of that statute; MCL 123.1101 defines "Local unit of government" as "a city, village, township, or county." Further, various statutes in Chapter 390 of the Michigan Compiled Laws grant state colleges and universities broad authority to enact ordinances (e.g., MCL 390.5 grants that power to the University of Michigan). Therefore, it appears that a university can enact and enforce an ordinance prohibiting a CPL holder from carrying a pistol on campus beyond classrooms and dormitories (see MCL 28.425o - the pistol free zone statute for CPL holders).

There are a number of non-statutory preemption theories used by the courts. It is possible that a court or the Attorney General may hold that state law does preempt a university ordinance. However, at this time we're not aware of an opinion holding that way.

Finally, it's worth noting that there's a difference between an ordinance and a policy. A university policy does not carry the force of law, and likely only applies to students, faculty, and employees. If you are a university employee, you are bound by the policy (MCL 28.425n allows employers to prohibit employee CPL holders from carrying at work).

Sincerely, Sgt. Thomas Deasy, Michigan State Police Executive Resource Section, 714 S. Harrison Rd. East Lansing, MI 48823 (517) 336-6441
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Old July 2, 2009, 08:03 AM   #7
pendennis
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jfrey123 wrote:
Quote:
Regarding the mesh bag, I don't believe OC is legal in your state... If you're carrying concealed, it probably needs to be fully concealed and out of view of the public.
Open carry is legal in Michigan.
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Old July 2, 2009, 05:37 PM   #8
Ejh28
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I'll make it very easy for you. Carrying a firearm on the CAMPUS of U of M will get you thrown in jail. For MSU you are allowed to carry on the CAMPUS, but not in any buildings.

Open Carry is legal in Michigan, but expect to have the police called on you. A lot.

Concealed is considered "not obvious the the untrained eye". I take that to mean under a shirt or jacket. Not just hanging out in a pocket.

I carry all the time and since I'm somewhat new to it (about a month) I constantly think that it's so easy for people to see that I'm carrying, but no one is actually looking for a gun. Let alone one in a CrossBreed SuperTuck (good holster). Heck my family can't even tell and they actually look for it most days.
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Old July 2, 2009, 10:07 PM   #9
Les Auten
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Ejh28

Quote:
Open Carry is legal in Michigan, but expect to have the police called on you. A lot.
The police in MI are learning thanks to the folks at Michigan Open Carry
http://miopencarry.org/
The MSP even has updates for their officers.

http://www.mi.gov/documents/msp/Lega...s_185809_7.pdf

Check out #S 54 55 & 66

After the fiasco in Grand Haven I hope more officers realize open carry is not illegal and they have no right to charge you for it.

Federal Civil Rights lawsuit filed over "Open Carry" Ordinance
May 12, 2009

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:

The Law Offices of Steven W. Dulan, PLC announces federal civil rights suit against City of Grand Haven and Ottawa County over open-carry ordinance.

The suit, brought under Title 42, Section 1983 of the U.S. Code, was filed on behalf of Christopher Fetters, an off-duty Air Force Security Officer who was attending the Coast Guard Festival in Grand Haven last year. Mr. Fetters was openly carrying a holstered pistol, which is legal under Michigan law, as in most states. He was arrested and detained and charged with a violation of a Grand Haven city ordinance prohibiting open carry of firearms. His gun was initially seized, although it was later returned.

Michigan law prohibits local units of government from making any law with respect to firearms, (MCL 123.1102.) The public policy goal of the statute is to provide a uniform system of gun laws statewide so that citizens do not have to guess regarding what local rules might exist as they move from one locality to the next.

The complaint alleges, among other issues, violations of Mr. Fetters' civil rights under the 2d, 4th, and 14th , Amendments to the U.S. Constitution, and Article I, Section 6 of the Michigan Constitution, which reads, "Every person has a right to keep and bear arms for the defense of himself and the state," when he was physically restrained, disarmed, and subjected to verbal harassment and ridicule by law enforcement personnel.

Criminal charges were later dropped by the Grand Haven City Attorney's Office, after being informed of the unenforceability of their ordinance. No allegations were ever made that Mr. Fetters ever threatened anyone, or in any other way disturbed the peace on the day of his arrest. He is demanding damages for violation of his civil rights as a citizen of the United States and of Michigan.

The case has been filed in the U.S. Court, Western District of Michigan in Grand Rapids and has been assigned Case Number 1:09-CV-00190.


(grabbed from http://miopencarry.org/ )
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Old July 2, 2009, 10:57 PM   #10
Ricebrnr
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As for the P7. Saw one at Cabelas in Dundee a few weeks ago. Used in the Gun Library case.

And +1 on the michigan Gun Owners Forum. Great place, just never mind the curmudgeons.
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Old July 7, 2009, 03:00 PM   #11
langenc
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To OC in MI the gun should be in a holster. Check with the OC group-I cant recall their official name at this point. Perhaps I should have said "must be in a holster."

A gun partially covered, is concealled. There is a case in the Detroit area now on that subject.
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