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Old June 22, 2009, 07:14 AM   #1
Elvishead
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One on one, empty your gun!

As I'm walking through a store like Walmart, or Kmart, I started to pair up bigger guys than me by a huge margin (Eyeball to his chest. I'm 6' 1" 220+ not fat by Vegas standards).

Somebody that could have the ability to take me out like there's no tomorrow (Please lord if I ever go to prison don't room me up with him!). It's funny, these guys usually have that relaxed look on there face like, "You don't want to mess with me."

Well, I carry a snub 5 shot 38. +P GDHP 135.

This got me thinking. If I ever got into a life threatening situation, one on one.

Do I shoot him a few times, and wait to see what happen to him, or do I unload?

After thinking about it, I thought to myself, if I didn't stop him in a 2-3 or 4 rounds, and there was rounds left in the gun, it could be used against me, and I'm up against a bear (Persay)

My point is at least if I put all 5 in him at once, I'd have a better chance of taking him over do to all 5 shoot's center mass, and go to my natural fighting (Fist's, knives, teeth) abilities.

That's, if I didn't take him down with the shot's fired.

Just kind of an epiphany.
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Old June 22, 2009, 07:19 AM   #2
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Shoot to stop the threat, however many rounds that takes.
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Old June 22, 2009, 07:30 AM   #3
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Quote:
WC145:

Shoot to stop the threat, however many rounds that takes.
I've already pondered that concept, tell me something with substance that I haven't already perceived.
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Old June 22, 2009, 07:42 AM   #4
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Empty the gun.

AFS
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Old June 22, 2009, 07:52 AM   #5
johnwilliamson062
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As fast as I fire at SD ranges for self defense accuracy, I imagine I will have 4 or five rounds off before there is any sort of indication as to whether the target is incapacitated. Hitting center mass at 7 yards I will only be using the front sight. I really don't have much of a plan as far as how may rounds. I think that is one of those things it is best to decide in the situation, but I am certainly not committed to 2 rounds or something.

'Well lads, if you can't get the job done in two, three at most, you aren't worth the air you breathe, so you might as well let the bugger have you.' -Idiot
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Old June 22, 2009, 07:53 AM   #6
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empty it
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Old June 22, 2009, 08:15 AM   #7
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If you were at Wal-Mart, I wouldn't suggest emptying your gun because you won't be able to find any more ammo for it in the sporting goods dept!

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Old June 22, 2009, 08:24 AM   #8
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I'm not against emptying the gun just so long as you have extra ammo. Far to few CCW holders do not carry extra ammo. You need to have enough to reload your weapon at least once preferably twice. In that scenario it doesn't matter if you unload since you can retreat to cover and reload. If your using a revolver a speed loader is ideal for this and can be kept easily enough in your pocket.
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Old June 22, 2009, 08:50 AM   #9
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If 2-3 rounds fails to stop your assailant you have a few options..

1) apply more lead COM until he stops or you run out of ammo.
2) CNS shot (can be problematic from a legal perspective perhaps, also difficult to do under stress)
3) Pelvic girdle (causes structural damage and pain that can stop an advancing aggressor, but won't stop someone from squeezing a trigger from the ground necessarily)
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Old June 22, 2009, 09:05 AM   #10
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If the cops ask why you shot him 5 times tell them on the 6th try it just went "click"

No worries friend, I'm 5'10 170lbs. Growing up it seemed like damn near every guy was much bigger than me, but I learned over the years that they go down if you hit em right. Sure I've had my a$$ handed to me now and then but not always because the guy was bigger than me.
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Old June 22, 2009, 09:17 AM   #11
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I'm curious as to how many people advocate putting all the shots in same area center of mass. I imagine that that area will be devestated, but why not spread out the shots a little to increase the chances of hitting other vitals? What about "zippering" the target where shots are applied center of mass, but a little higher with each shot. If the target fails to drop with the first few shots, the later shots will either hit the neck or head.

I think this debate has been discussed numerous times. The overall consensus is you shoot until there is no longer a threat. That means the target is on the ground and no longer willing or capable of attacking you. I do NOT believe in always emptying the gun or firing off a set number of rounds. What if you are carrying a Glock 17 with a full mag and 1 in the pipe? That would be pretty hard to justify unloading on him unless you really were fighting a real grizzly bear. You have to walk the fine line of firing enough rounds to stop the threat and not firing too many rounds where it makes a good shoot look bad. I know most people will respond with the saying "Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6". While self preservation is obviously very important, try to keep a good shoot good and stop shooting as soon as the threat is down.

Keep in mind that in close distances and use of weaker self defense cartridges, it just might be necessary to empty the gun (and then some). Maybe it is time to trade up to a compact .40 S&W or .45 acp.
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Old June 22, 2009, 09:23 AM   #12
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99.9% of the time, the appropriate response is to draw your weapon and say "STOP OR I'LL SHOOT", or some variation thereof, which will cause the potential BG to stop--- lest he be shot.

99% of the .1% of the time, one or two shots will be entirely sufficient, from any gun in any caliber.

I have better things to do than worry about the remaining 1% of the .1%.

One of those better things to do is talk to people on the internet who DO worry about the 1% of .1%.
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Old June 22, 2009, 09:24 AM   #13
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Well then I how do you think I feel at 5'7 1/2 at 165 looking up at a guy 6'1 220.Its not the size of the fight in the dog but its the fight in the size of the dog..Something like that.
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Old June 22, 2009, 10:37 AM   #14
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Also something I have found myself pondering of late. Mostly because the weather is warm so the five inch .45 is harder to hide, the snub comes out to play more and more. The .45 gives me 13+1 which never made me wonder what if I unload the weapon into one person. I just can not see someone taking more than 6 rounds of .45 and still coming. I don't see it happening with 5 rounds of .38 either but at least the .45 still has another half dozen rounds in it ready to go. My solution is to carry a reload with the snub, and hopefully only need a maximum of three rounds in the first place. I hope that BANG BANG BANG would be enough, if it isn't I still have two more while I get to cover and reload. Then I'm hiding til the calvary show up because after those last five rounds are gone I'm out. And those airweights aren't much of a club.
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Old June 22, 2009, 12:56 PM   #15
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The only problem with planning to fire your weapon until it's empty is you might be firing after the threat is over. Say you plan on emptying it, but he goes down on the first shot.... Which means the other 4 rounds are at strange angles and maybe the fifth shot is a head shot through his chin or back of his head.

Those sorts of things look like an execution rather than a self defense shooting.



Plus, if it turns out you've got a second BG attacking from a different direction that you weren't first aware of, I'd really prefer to have another round or two ready to go. Impossible if you've already just dumped your cylinders into the first BG.
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Old June 22, 2009, 03:24 PM   #16
WC145
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
WC145:

Shoot to stop the threat, however many rounds that takes.
I've already pondered that concept, tell me something with substance that I haven't already perceived.
I don't know what you've already "perceived". I'm saying that you shoot to stop the threat, I don't know how you expect anybody to know how many rounds that'll take. It can't be predicted. Also, the idea of going into a gun fight with a predetermined notion of how many rounds you'll fire is foolishness. If you read up on shootings you'll find that often the person defending himself doesn't know how many rounds he fired or he thinks it's one number when in fact it is more, so I'd say there's a good chance that if the lead starts flying you're going to lose count anyway.

When we train and qualify we practice a lot of failure drills - 2 or 3 to the chest followed by one to the head. Since you want advice with substance I'd suggest practicing something similar - two double taps to the chest followed by a head shot, then back out from the target, reload, and reassess (remembering to scan the area around you for other threats). It would go something like this - bangbang...bangbang...bang - use that split second after each double tap to get back on target and assess the situation. In real life that will translate to two fast hits COM and a moment to determine whether or not to do it again. If 4 in the chest don't do the job use your last round to try and finish it.

Remember, you'll fight the way you train. Build good habits and skills in the gym and on the range and you'll be way ahead of the game on the street.
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Old June 22, 2009, 03:32 PM   #17
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I would argue that emptying your firearm is consistent with fear for one's life or that of others.
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Old June 22, 2009, 03:35 PM   #18
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I would empty my revolver (6 rds) into the threat and then take cover and reload. I keep at least one reload on my person.

Peetza is right.

I have put my hand on my CCW twice in situations over the last 5 years (parking garage and gas station-late night) and that alone made the agressors back off/leave and it didn't have to come out of the holster.
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Old June 22, 2009, 03:45 PM   #19
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I'm with csmsss
I do carry extra ammo.
When I practice I usually put 2 or 3 center mass then go for the pelvis. Even in winter I think there is often less clothing there. I feel most people won't be able to stand the pain of a broken pelvis. It hurts me just thinking about it.
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Old June 22, 2009, 03:45 PM   #20
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Quote:
This got me thinking. If I ever got into a life threatening situation, one on one.

Do I shoot him a few times, and wait to see what happen to him, or do I unload?
I guess it would depend on what one considers "life threatening"....or, more importantly, what a average jury of mothers, fathers, school teachers, etc. considers life threatening.

This huge dude charges at you with a knife or pulls out a handgun, you shoot until the threat is over....until the threat is over, no more.

Just because someone may be intimidated by another persons size, doesn't give anyone the right to use more force than is necessary to stop the threat----big dude, small dude on PCP whatever.
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Old June 22, 2009, 03:51 PM   #21
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im one of these big guys u talk about (6'4 285 pounds and im 14) and ive thrown down with quite a few ''men'' for my young life. and if one ever pulled a gun id been at home washing my pants if you know wat i mean. of corse someone older might react differnt. but then again they might not.
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Old June 22, 2009, 03:57 PM   #22
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Shoot until he hits the deck. Once he's off his feet cease fire, don't stand over him and empty your weapon into him (coughcoughOklahomapharmacistcoughcough). While he's under his own power he's a threat. Once he's down get to a safe distance, reload, and call the police while keeping an eye on him.
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Old June 22, 2009, 04:46 PM   #23
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I use a smile and a friendly hand shake. Makes most folks smile right back at ya. But then, I am one of them larger guys with the relaxed look upon my face
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Old June 22, 2009, 10:15 PM   #24
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Question I have is how one would know that it's one on one. He poses an immediate and serious threat, you necessarily shoot--how do you know his partner won't then be coming at you?

How about two quick shots, reassess... and let developments unfold from there?
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Old June 22, 2009, 10:23 PM   #25
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I know most people will respond with the saying "Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6". While self preservation is obviously very important, try to keep a good shoot good and stop shooting as soon as the threat is down.
Exactly. It may be better to by tried by 12 than carried by 6, but it's better still to be neither.
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