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Old June 26, 2009, 12:24 PM   #76
thesecond
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Also, a spare mag for mag-related 'failures'. (armsmaster270 and Mr. Goldstein beat me to it, but it's probably been mentioned, can't even remember .... .... )

What I don't understand is how one comes up with a reason NOT to carry an extra mag (where one already has decided to wear from 6-7 oz. up to and above 30-40 oz. of rectangle, and where an extra magazine is only an additional fraction of that volume and weight) OR a speed loader, strip, or some 'loose change' (in the case of revolvers).

What other items or reasons would take precedence? A flashlight? A candy-bar? A sippy cup? Not wanting to look fat in those pants?

(This thread's been done so many, many times. Next time, I'll let it digress and die a natural death.)

Last edited by thesecond; June 26, 2009 at 01:22 PM.
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Old June 26, 2009, 12:41 PM   #77
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Well said, Mister Goldstein.

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Old June 26, 2009, 01:59 PM   #78
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"Don't recite dogma as established fact. Of course it's better to have a spare magazine, but suggesting that not having one is equivalent to having no firearm whatsoever is ludicrous"
ludicrous is a strong word.

A person who devotes his life to the "combat mindset" and makes every effort to be ready for when the inevitable violent confrontation occurs (it might never happen but it might also happen as soon as you step outside your door) will automatically undertstand the concept of "2 is 1 and 1 is none".

It is not a ridicule to someone who chooses to carry a pistol with no spare magazine. It is simply a fact that said person is making a conscious decision to NOT carry something that can be absolutely vital to his life when the need arises. That person is not truly in the zone necessary to overcome the infamous Mr. Murphy when his ugly head arises.

Instead of being absolutley ready and confident that he can handle the situation if his magazine gets ejected from his firearm or he is attacked by multiple armed assailents or is faced with an aggressive active shooter armed with an AR15 and 10 magazines, he is 'OK' with the bare minimum needed to make him feel comfortable in a low intensity fast attack scenario.

He knows all of the statistics and reads over and over again how "most gunfights last a few seconds" and the "majority of the time the person attacked never changes his magazine due to running out of ammunition from his primary magazine."

To this person I say "Please come and hear the reasons why we always carry a spare magazine." This person needs to make a decision right now.

Question: Why are you carrying a firearm?

Answer: To protect myself and my family from violent life threatining attack

Question: What if you are attacked from close range/point zero and your attacker, while grabbing for your firearm to take it away from you, manages to eject your magazine from your firearm?

Answer: I better have the ability to make my firearm useful and the only way this will happen is if I am able to reload it with a spare magazine.

The answer is obvious to those that care to see it. To those with a true real world combat mindset, the answer is plain as day.

Bottom line: You are either ready for the Unexpected worst case scenario or you are not.

I apologize for the long post but this is a very important aspect to daily carry that I feel folks need to take more seriously.

I promised myself that my last words of my life will never be "I wish I had more ammo" or "I wish I was carrying my pistol on me today."
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Old June 26, 2009, 02:18 PM   #79
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Be the "firstest" with the "mostest" - General Nathan Bedford Forrest

Perhaps we need to consider being the "firstest" and "mostest" with ADEE?

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Yes, wear the darn gun!
Just perhaps not everything defaults to gun, or is best handled by gun or one is going to be able to have gun.
Keeping in mind NPEs (non permissive [weapon] environments).

If you are not where trouble is in the "firstest" place, disengage using interpersonal and social skills "firstest"/ "mostest" , escape "firstest /mostest" keeping in mind "tailgunners" , then vacate the venue thus evading 'firstest/mostest", then the threat was stopped, without having to go to gun.

Being the realist I am, handguns are not magic talismans, no matter what or caliber they are, or type of ammunition they are using.
Anything mechanical, can and will break, and will do so at the worst possible moment.
There will always be more VCAs than one can have ammunition contained in a firearm and have spare ammunition for.


Case in point.
Three VCAs, two with visible guns and one of these two pointed a gun at me just as I pulled into a parking place.

This incident exploded the instant I pulled in to park.

I have a CCW, with 10 rounds, two spare mags, and that day I had a shotgun behind the seat, as I had been out and about running errands, and picking up/delivering this shotgun if you will was with me.

I backed up the truck, got distance, took cover, observed, and took notes on my hand with pen.
Then after the threats left, I made sure the scene was kept clean (not disturbed) , everyone was alright, until officers arrived, then I had pertinent information and shared 'scripts, license tags, and everything else.

Others were in storefronts , or on the sidewalk just gawking while all this played out.







Mister Goldstein, excellent post sir!
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Old June 26, 2009, 03:34 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
That's a misuse of the term 'insignificant' - standards for statistical significance imply that you make an error at a rate that is usually with a p = .05, .01 or even .001.
It's only a misuse if the percentage of needing a reload rises above that threshold. Admittedly, I cannot show that it doesn't rise above that level but I've heard of virtually no civilians incidents that actually REQUIRED a reload. Just because someone DID reload doesn't mean they NEEDED a reload. They may have fired 10 shots when 1 would have done, or any number of other possibilities.
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Old June 26, 2009, 04:40 PM   #81
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It is quite simple: Carry what you think you need.

It is you that gets to live (or not) with that decision.
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Old June 26, 2009, 06:53 PM   #82
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Avoid, Disengage, Escape
No no no!!!

Find'em, Fix'em, Fight'em, and Finish'em.

I like that better:-)
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Old June 26, 2009, 07:05 PM   #83
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Find'em, Fix'em, Fight'em, and Finish'em.
= Prison
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Old June 26, 2009, 08:41 PM   #84
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Not if you can't retreat! And in many states you HAVE to retreat if you can safely do so. But in Texas, you can stand your ground if you did not provoke the attack.

The 4Fs come from the U.S. Army.
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Old June 26, 2009, 10:46 PM   #85
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This thread is maddening!! I cannot for the life of me understand the argument that carrying a 5 shot weapon is somehow inherently smarter than a higher cap weapon.
The marginal cost (in weight, effort, size, money etc.) of carrying the extral ammo is virtually nil.
I disagree that the cost is marginal or virtually nil.
I've tried to CC a larger high cap pistol many times before, and sooner or later, it gets left behind in favor of a lighter-weight and smaller gun.

Going for a little 3 mile jog?
Walking and playing on the beach?
A friendly game of basketball?
A day of rock-climbing and rappelling on the local mountain?
White-water rafting?
Mountain-biking?
Dancing with your girl?
ect...

All of these activities are much better performed with a 5-shot 17 oz snubbie in the pocket, rather than a high-cap autoloader and extra magazines.

As I have said before, I've been down the I'm-going-to-carry-a-high-capacity-handgun-and-extra-magazines-just-in-case road before.....it gets old real fast.
And sooner or later, the larger heavier load gets left behind.
Not to mention that revolvers are simply more reliable than autoloaders.
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Old June 26, 2009, 11:01 PM   #86
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Some of you guys scare me...
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Old June 26, 2009, 11:34 PM   #87
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It is good to be scared sometimes, as that means one is thinking.

Deaf Smith and I are on the same page more than some may think.

I have been discussing "thinking", "shooting", "both" in private with some folks. Which would be better discussed in a roundtable versus online.


Still you gotta know the legal of where you are.
What many J.Q.Public's forget, especially those new to Concealed Carry, is the legal, and the differences in Professionals and Private Sector.

It makes no difference what Texas laws are if you reside , or are visiting Wisconsin, or Maryland for instance.
Nor does it matter what those in the Military or in Law Enforcement "do" if you are J.Q.Public.

Professionals are trained to run toward Serious.

Conceal Carry license/permit for J.Q.Public/Private sector does not mean, one has a license/permit to "Wyatt Earp" and you sure do not get the backing of a Law Enforcement Agency or Uncle Sam.

I am not that old, just started really young. As time has gone on, especially more recent, I see a lot of new Conceal Carry folks share some attitudes and thinking that could use some serious adjustments.

A jury of your peers does not mean twelve persons that are exactly like you.
If you want to really know what the law is on criminal cases, sit in on one.
It might surprise you as to what is the law, and educate you on definitions and interpretations of the law.
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Old June 26, 2009, 11:56 PM   #88
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Since my "enemy" could do such a thing am I supposed to plan for it? I think that would be a little ridiculous. The sane and sensible citizen HAS GOT TO DRAW THE LINE, SOMEWHERE.

The statistics of past incidents help us to make an informed decision on WHERE to draw the line.If not, we'd all be driving armored humvees and wearing body armor with the wife as the gunner on the 50.
Just a few months ago we had the exact same argument going on for page after page. P. Killa seems to have a lot invested in his argument that, since the odds are against needing one, it isn't necessary to carry a reload.

His call, but no matter what gun you carry, you're better armed if you have the means to reload. And for more than one reason.

As has been pointed out, averages take in stats from both extremes.

Want to play averages? Don't carry a gun because the odds are very much in your favor of not ever needing it. What are those odds? Don't know, but probably about the same as for all the many thousands of Americans who needed one anyway even though the odds said they wouldn't. Same with reloads.

Don't want to carry a reload? Well, don't carry one and give the rest of us a break.
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Old June 26, 2009, 11:56 PM   #89
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How many do you need?

Last week I went on a dogbite call & couldn't locate either the dogs or the person bitten. I wound up searching for both on foot and eventually located the bitten kid and his folks.

They were soon to get quite a show. I heard snarling and barking off to my left rear and as I turned to face the racket, I saw two large dogs charging me at full speed from the middle of the street. A big Pit Bull was in the lead with a big brown Shepherd mix coming alongside and damn, they were coming fast! As they closed the remaining 20 feet the Pit had lowered its body, preparing to lunge.

I drew my issue Glock 22 and yelled ‘STOP!’ as I blocked the sights on bottom of the Pit Bull’s chest- a smaller target than it sounds like. There was no time to do anything but shoot and I found myself shooting one-handed. At 12 feet I fired two shots, which made it flinch but did not stop the charge. I compensated for the dog’s movement and triggered two more shots. It then started yelping, bleeding and flipping around the yard like a porpoise. It was apparent that the dog was mortally wounded and still suffering, so I shot it once more through the shoulders. The other dog decided discretion was the better part of valor, and had evaporated into thin air.

I estimate the time from threat recognition, until the last shot was fired, at five seconds tops. My cursory examination of the dog revealed at least three holes in its front chest and shoulders, and the finisher which exited behind the off-shoulder. The load was 165 grain Golden Saber.

Sometime after the melee, it occurred to me that I could have stopped the first dog about as well with my little 5-shot SP101; but if the second dog had pressed the attack with the determination of the first, I would have been screwed. A few extra rounds on board can be a real comforting thing- whether you need them or not.
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Old June 27, 2009, 09:11 AM   #90
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Quote:
Just a few months ago we had the exact same argument going on for page after page. P. Killa seems to have a lot invested in his argument that, since the odds are against needing one, it isn't necessary to carry a reload.
Apparently, the "investment" goes both ways, as I see your still making your argument also.



Quote:
Don't want to carry a reload? Well, don't carry one and give the rest of us a break.
It's really quite interesting that, in both threads regarding this topic, certain members of the "high capacity" crowd are the ones telling the others to essentially "Shut up and go away."

I've personally stated numerous times that anyone who wants to carry a reload should go right ahead and do so. I've also never once told anyone that they should stop discussing their opinions.



Here's another interesting twist (which was also addressed in the other thread):

Who's better armed? The guy with the 5 shot snubbie and 4 reloads or the guy with the 18 shot Glock and NO reloads? If "capacity" matters, then the guy with the snubbie is better off. Except for the dang reload time. Since logic dictates that the same capacity with no reloads should be better, well, I guess all the pro-capacity guys also advocate carrying nothing but high-cap autos?



One other thing: Two threads running over several months time, I've still never seen a single actual link to an incident wherein a civilian actually NEEDED a reload.
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Old June 27, 2009, 09:29 AM   #91
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You will not be "undergunned" if you are carrying a (5) shot .38 special pistol, (especially if they are +P's.).

Of course you can carry many more rounds in an automatic which is fine. But really, no one can say you are undergunned with (5) rounds. Most altercations take place within 7 yards or closer. Certainly even a 2" barrel snubbie with quality ammo (plus practice with any SD gun you will be carrying) should be sufficient to keep you well protected.
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Old June 27, 2009, 07:52 PM   #92
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It didn't work for an off duty Sacramento Sheriff's Deputy he emptied his snub nose into an armed robber's chest. then the robber buttstroked him killing the deputy. Robber then left premises and fell through a plate glass window and expired. deputy was using 158 LSWCHP's issue ammo fo the day.
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Old June 27, 2009, 09:28 PM   #93
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2" snubbie:

Yeah, maybe so armsmaster270, but I bet that that guy is certainly an unusual "freak of nature" to take (5) 158 grain bullets in the chest and keep on going. I find that very hard to believe. Did he have a vest on or what?
That is the FBI load and certainly should have put him down. Weird!

Anyway, I certainly feel well protected with my S&W model 442 that I carry all the time now.
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Old June 27, 2009, 09:51 PM   #94
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Deaf ~

The legal right to stand your ground does NOT give you the right to hunt down an opponent, nor to finish him off once he has stopped being an immediate threat to innocent life -- even in Texas. And the rules of engagement under which the US Army operates are considerably different from those under which ordinary citizens must labor.

Moderator request:

Please take it over to the "morals" thread if you want to debate anything related to that point, as it doesn't really belong in this thread in any case.

Thanks,

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Old June 27, 2009, 10:48 PM   #95
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Pax,

The 4 Fs were the U.S. Army. No one is searching out any bad guys to confront.

In self defense to be attacked ... well you have 'found them' (and you know who is the bad gun and who is not.) Indicators, if you are alert, will give you the tip off.

Once you defend yourself you fix their position .vs. yours (and if you are wise, you move the most advantagious position you can.), i.e. fix them.

Then actual use of self defense techniques, weither H2H or gun or whatever, you 'fight them'.

And once you have stopped them is to 'finish them'. That is the fight is over. Hopfully you can just incapasitate them long enough for the police to come.
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Old June 28, 2009, 07:14 PM   #96
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It didn't work for an off duty Sacramento Sheriff's Deputy he emptied his snub nose into an armed robber's chest. then the robber buttstroked him killing the deputy. Robber then left premises and fell through a plate glass window and expired. deputy was using 158 LSWCHP's issue ammo fo the day.
Perhaps the deputy should have emptied his snubbie into the robber's head.

After all, he was within "butt-stroke" range, which is plenty close enough for headshots.
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Old July 1, 2009, 11:29 PM   #97
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You also carry a spare magazine because your primary magazine might be ejected during an attack where the enemy is able to press your magazine release and your magazine drops to the floor.
I see this as the ideal situation for a BUG, not a spare magazine. If you are in a life and death struggle over your gun, I simply can't see the BG letting go of the gun and giving you time to reload. Now that I think of it, it also sounds like a great argument for carrying a revolver. A hand over the cylinder may stop the cylinder from rotating, but if you manage to regain full control, the revolver will still be able to fire its full complement of rounds.
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Old July 2, 2009, 12:04 AM   #98
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Two threads running over several months time, I've still never seen a single actual link to an incident wherein a civilian actually NEEDED a reload.
I can only think of two off the top of my head.

Not exactly a typical incident, but the Harry Beckwith shooting involved his reloading an AR15 once, running the second mag dry and then emptying two mags from his S&W 76.

Lance Thomas didn't believe in reloads, he stashed guns at various key points in his jewelry shop where he could access them easily. When he ran dry he would simply drop the empty gun and access another one. He emptied 2 guns and accessed a third in his second shooting. In his third shooting he had to transition to a second gun after the first jammed on the third shot. In his fourth and final shooting, he emptied one gun and transitioned to a second.

I wouldn't say it's common, but it does happen.
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Old July 2, 2009, 09:41 AM   #99
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New guy here with a twist to throw into the discussion. I'm recently retired LE who made a few enemies on the job and CC for, among other reasons, specific threats on my life. I carry a Glock 27 at all times. Here's the twist. I often travel with wife and two daughters, all of whom know I carry and are ALL reasonably competent with MY Glock in case I become incapacitated and they need help! How many on here are depending solely on themselves to handle the emergency? If you engage and possibly promote a further threat to yourself, you're also promoting that threat on your loved ones. You better make damn sure that they are okay with this, selfish not to think otherwise, and if so, can they protect themselves if you're down? Food for thought.

Along the same vein, if my rotweiler security fails me at home, I have made sure that my wife and kids know the location of stash guns and how to use them.
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Old July 2, 2009, 10:13 AM   #100
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I can only think of two off the top of my head.
These are compelling arguments for being prepared for a fight. Personally, I wouldn't put them under the "carry capacity" argument, especially Beckwith. The amount of ammo and/or guns I would keep available if I was in a "dangerous" business or had a history of trouble is different, in my mind, than what I feel the need for during a trip Wal*Mart.

Even so, if a staggering 100 people a year actually die in SD incidents due to lack of ammo, it would still make the odds low beyond comprehension. Which goes to my original point that everyone of us, whether we acknowledge it or not, draws a line in the sand and says "I will not prepare beyond this level." and we use the odds we have calculated, consciously or not, to make that decision and that there comes a point, somewhere, that even the most prepared amongst us says "Now, wait a minute, that's a little overboard."
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