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Old June 21, 2009, 05:33 PM   #1
The Terminator
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Regarding carry capacity.

Quote:
Just never saw the point to limit the amount of rounds I can put on BG when todays small semi-auto's are plenty reliable. For instance I carry a Kel Tec PF9, 7+1 of 9mm, plenty powerful and two more rounds than a revolver and still fits comfortably in my pocket

I read this quote earlier, in another post. I have never felt undergunned with a 5 shot 38. I carry autos also, but not for reasons of capacity. Do you think that the amount of ammo in the gun is a real or perceived advantage?

Point - How many reloads occur during a gunfight between a Citizen and a bad guy? I don't think that reloads happen often. The old saying that you can't miss fast enough is certainly true. However, if you can hit the target, do the umpteen round 3 spare magazines really help, in reality?

Really, and I'm being serious here, wouldn't a .38 Derringer, 2 shot, serve 99% of our ccw needs?

I do keep plenty of spare ammo in my bug out bag, but that is not for carrying around all the time for potential defense situations.
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Old June 21, 2009, 06:02 PM   #2
SAIGAFISH
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I dont cc but outside city limits I will be oc my new xd m9mm
it holds 19 +1 so if i have to reload i need alot more target practice.


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Old June 21, 2009, 06:17 PM   #3
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Quote:
Really, and I'm being serious here, wouldn't a .38 Derringer, 2 shot, serve 99% of our ccw needs?

Because of that other 1%. Never plan for what your enemy might do. Plan for what he can do.


When considering a CCW gun, I generally look at physical size and weight of the gun and what you can hide. If the size/weight ratio of your gun lets you have 6 rounds of .40 S&W over 2 rounds of .38, why would you limit yourself to two rounds? In Florida, based on the heat/weather, I sometimes carry a S&W 649 (5-shot .38) and sometimes carry a Glock 17 (20 rounds of 9mm).

If you base your carry needs on statistics, 99% of CCW civilian vs. BG confrontrations could be solved with an airsoft pistol spray painted black (no shots fired).
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Old June 21, 2009, 06:23 PM   #4
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derringers affective range accurately is what about 3ft

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Old June 21, 2009, 09:50 PM   #5
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Quote:
If the size/weight ratio of your gun lets you have 6 rounds of .40 S&W over 2 rounds of .38, why would you limit yourself to two rounds?

I agree with the above statement. Why would you carry less than what you could carry comfortably? Even when I have a J-Frame revolver in my pocket, I have a couple of speed strips on my belt. It just never occured to me to leave the house with only 5 rds. Can't really explain it. My XD-45 holds 14 rds., but I always have one spare magazine on my belt when I am carrying it. Again, it just seems right, and requires no extra effort.

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Old June 22, 2009, 04:16 AM   #6
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Quote:
Really, and I'm being serious here, wouldn't a .38 Derringer, 2 shot, serve 99% of our ccw needs?
Man, a single shot straw and spitwad would serve 99% of our CCW needs because at any given time, more than 99% of CCW people are not in need of their firearms in any way, shape, or form except for emotional security. So sure, a 2 shot would be fine so long as you are not in a gun fight of any sort.

And that is a serious answer.
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Old June 22, 2009, 06:10 AM   #7
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Quote:
How many reloads occur during a gunfight between a Citizen and a bad guy? I don't think that reloads happen often.
Who's to say? Who would be willing to take that chance? Not me.

I know one thing for sure, If I'm carrying a gun,(and, I am-all of the time.) I want to be sure I always have ammo to feed it. Whether I think I will need it or not. The gun is useless without it.

Like Doublestack said, it takes no extra effort to carry spare ammo. - Not much anyway, so why not carry it just to be on the safe side? I've said this before, but, It's not being paranoid, It's being prepared.

I don't wear my seat belt when I drive because I want to get into a car accident, I wear it because I might get into a accident. The minute I think the air bag itself is enough, is the day I go flying through the windshield. When it wouldn't have been any extra effort to just put my seat belt on in the first place. Okay, I'll stop now.
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Old June 22, 2009, 06:16 AM   #8
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The thing about insurance is that it isn't supposed to be statistically sound and right most of the time, because it involves events that you don't get to repeat 100 times until you come out ahead.

It involves low probability events with very high impacts. Your house probably won't burn down, you probably won't crash your car, and your kid probably won't get seriously sick/injured. But you insure for all of those.

And you don't insure for the "most likely" event within that subset: a pan fire that scorches a wall, a fender bender that will leave you with a bruise, or stitches for your kid. You get a fire extinguisher, have a plan that'll cover your whole house burning to the ground, wear a seatbelt even a block over in the neighborhood, and get health insurance that'll cover an exotic cancer that needs a million bucks in treatment.

99% of the time you won't be attacked. If you are, statistically you'll brandish and the coward will change his mind. If you do have to fire, statistically it will be a couple shots and then over. But I don't want to be protected in "most" cases, because you don't get a do-over.

Thugs tend to travel in packs, and there are plenty of cases of multiple home invaders, muggers, etc. If the worst of the worst happens, you want all your boxes checked: airbag AND seatbelt, insurance for cancer AND organ transplants, cell phone AND flashlight AND full capacity pistol.
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Old June 22, 2009, 07:13 AM   #9
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Quote:
Point - How many reloads occur during a gunfight between a Citizen and a bad guy?
To your point, I doubt that many civilian gun fights include a reload. I read some place, and I might have the number wrong, but I think the average rounds fired during a civlian shooting is 7. Where that number came from or is it even valid, I kind of doubt it.

It does seem to validate the fact that more civilian exchanges are pretty quick with one party or the other getting the hell out of there (or getting shot) pretty quickly.

Would two rounds serve your needs? At the range, sure, you'll hit your target. To me, the wild card would be a CCW situation. Let's just say that 7 shots fired is actually a valid number of shots fired during a SD situation.

Do you think for a second that all 7 shots are hits? Maybe half are hits? I'd argue that it would likely be much lower than that due to the pressure of the situation. Maybe 10% or 20% is more likely. To me in that type of situation, you could easily miss with your first two shots of the derringer.

In my opinion, the more options you have, the more likely you are to survive a SD situtation. To me, a 2-shot gun, while better than nothing, isn't your best choice.
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Old June 22, 2009, 09:41 AM   #10
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Good analyses - folks sometimes assume that the average is what always happens and forget about the extremes or the Black Swan event.

Yes, they are rare but when they happen, they have large consequences. It is unlikely you will be in a school or mall rampage. But in an intensive gun fight, you could use all the ammo you carry.

If it is just the single mugger who goes away when you wave your gun - then you can carry unloaded.
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Old June 22, 2009, 09:42 AM   #11
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Quote:
Really, and I'm being serious here, wouldn't a .38 Derringer, 2 shot, serve 99% of our ccw needs?
I generaly don't worry about a spare mag that being said if size was that big of a factor I would feel better with a little six shot .22 than only having one or two shots with a larger caliber, Just my opinion though
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Old June 22, 2009, 09:49 AM   #12
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Because of that other 1%. Never plan for what your enemy might do. Plan for what he can do.
There's a logical and necessary limit to that thinking. The Crips and The Bloods could get together and point at a spot on the map, that could turn out to be Lisle, NY (where I am), and they could say "Yep, we's gunna go there and have us a war.", and I'd be up crap creek without a paddle.

Since my "enemy" could do such a thing am I supposed to plan for it? I think that would be a little ridiculous. The sane and sensible citizen HAS GOT TO DRAW THE LINE, SOMEWHERE.

The statistics of past incidents help us to make an informed decision on WHERE to draw the line.If not, we'd all be driving armored humvees and wearing body armor with the wife as the gunner on the 50.

I personally have been thinking lately that what I need is a way to engage a threat using LESS force instead of more. How many people who are worried about whether two extra 18 round mags is enough even have a way of stopping a threat that DOES NOT justify lethal force? (Think pepper spray here, folks) Sure, there is more than one frequent poster here that carry a wide range of items every day but they're generally not the ones asking these questions.
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Old June 22, 2009, 11:23 AM   #13
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You cannot account for your mindset at the time of the high stress incident. That being said it is entirely possible you empty your gun with out realizing it and manage not to neutralize your threat. Especially easy if you only carry a five shot. If that were the case you can reload and be smarter with your next round of amo. But if you dont have that reload your stuck thinking "I wish I'd have slipped that extra mag/speed load in my pocket."

More amo will always be overkill untill the day you need it. Then you'll be glad you bothered to carry a reload or two because you get to live another day.
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Old June 22, 2009, 01:14 PM   #14
Bartholomew Roberts
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Quote:
Point - How many reloads occur during a gunfight between a Citizen and a bad guy?
Well, I can't answer that question but in the Force-on-Force exercises I've done with Simunitions, reloads did happen on occasion. Considering that the minimum level of proficiency was at least two courses in fighting with a pistol (a total of 48 hours instruction) and additional IPSC/IDPA style competition shooting background and that these were 10 round magazines, I'd say the event is not so rare that it doesn't need to be planned for.

On the flip side, the guy who had to reload first often ended up "dead" anyway. So maybe one magazine is all you need
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Old June 22, 2009, 01:49 PM   #15
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Well, I guess it could be argued to carry 3 18 round 9mm magazines. That's more than a box of ammo. And with the logic some people have, that could be 1 less round than you need. So, what is the limit? Personally; a traditional revolver is 5-6 rounds. That is the standard. If you want a semi that carries 18 rounds; have at it. If you need to carry multiple magazines for your own sense of security; go for it. I feel quite fine with my Sig P220 and 8 rounds; or my FEG 32auto and 7 rounds; or my S&W Model 13 revolver and 6 rounds; or my CZ-82 9mm mak with 12 rounds. Whatever the gun comes with, I'm fine with. I spend my shooting time practicing hitting my target instead of reloading. My objective is to STOP the threat. Not to kill anyone. If they die; so be it. If I can shoot 1 or 2 rounds and get away to a safer position; then that too is fine.
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Old June 22, 2009, 02:02 PM   #16
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Yes. One of my criteria for purchasing a firearm is capacity. That's the main reason I like 9mm - with a +2 extension I can get 20 rounds squeezed in my Glock 17. My EAA 10mm holds 14 rounds. Both of my 45's hold 12 rounds (although only one of them fits my hand nicely)

All I can say is that after I've practiced some handgun drills where you're moving and shooting, I usually go through the first 10 rounds rather quickly and still haven't completed my objective. I've tried this with my 9mm and 10mm. I need two magazines with my 10mm. One magazine at least gets the job done with my 9mm.

I don't know what the heck I would do if I were using a 6 cylinder wheel gun. I guess reload 2-3 times.
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Old June 22, 2009, 02:24 PM   #17
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You will carry what you will carry, but keep in mind for a true SD situation you have to plan on Murphy's Law and the worse case scenario falling in your lap. Myself I carry a Sig226 .357Sig with one spare Mag 25 rnds total and a S&W 340PD in my pocket as a BUG If I am on a Ride Along with a police agency I add one more Magazine as the liklehood of being in a shooting situation just went up. My last Ride was in Chicago in the Englewood district plainclothes with the Gang Task force and we responded to 3 shooting calls and recovered two guns.
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Old June 22, 2009, 02:30 PM   #18
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Nobody ever finished a gunfight and said "darn, I brought too much ammo".
At the same time one has to eventually face the limits of weight and moblility
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Old June 22, 2009, 02:30 PM   #19
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Putting as much space between you and your attacker(S) - should be everyones first priority. Just because I'm carrying spare ammo doesn't mean I am going to shoot the place up or try to be a hero. Retreat is my first choice.

My firearm is my last resort. The last line of defense. I don't think that carrying extra ammo makes me Rambo. Like I said, it's just being prepared.

I was also taught that you never shoot to kill, only shoot to stop a threat. But, again - who's to say how many times I would have to shoot to achieve that.

I hope I never have to find out. But, if that day comes, I am going to do everything I can to be prepared for the worst case scenario, and carry spare ammo. And most of the time, a back up gun as well.

Criminals want people that are going to be easy targets, they don't want someone that is going to fight back. I don't ever want to be able to NOT fight back and protect myself or my family because I ran out of ammo, or because something happened to my main carry gun.

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Old June 22, 2009, 03:48 PM   #20
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There's a logical and necessary limit to that thinking.
Of course there is. Otherwise people would be walking around with select fire carbines, grenades, k-bars, body armor and night vision gear.
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Old June 22, 2009, 03:56 PM   #21
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I've got a question for y'all: Any of you who have ever had to investgate that "sound" in the middle of the night - what gun did you use and how many extra magazines / or if a revolver, extra ammo, did you think to pick up with your gun?
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Old June 22, 2009, 03:57 PM   #22
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If for a moment we assume that concealed carry is on the rise in the US (which I believe it is from everything that I have read) and we note the number of overly violent events involving well prepared gunmen and/or psychopaths, then this notion of how often civilians need reloads in a gun fight is going to cross roads with some significant firepower events where indeed civilians will need reloads in a gun fight.

Even if I don't need a reload for the fight itself, instruction and prudence has taught me that topping off (conditions permitting) might be critical as soon as the known fight is over.

How often are often are CCW civilians going to be involved in one of those significant fire power events and need a reload? Still probably not very often. However, I see carrying a spare mag as no more hassle than carrying a comb, and seeing as I am bald now, I don't need the comb and have plenty of capacity for the extra mag.
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Old June 22, 2009, 04:13 PM   #23
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Quote:
Since my "enemy" could do such a thing am I supposed to plan for it? I think that would be a little ridiculous. The sane and sensible citizen HAS GOT TO DRAW THE LINE, SOMEWHERE.
If ifs and buts were candy and nuts I'd have an M1A2 Abrams main battle tank ... that would have almost any percievable self defense need I could have covered ... unless a mugger had an attack helicopter .

I'll draw my line at any type of handgun I can reasonably conceal and carry with 2 spare magazines. It may be getting cliche but I'd rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.
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Old June 22, 2009, 04:27 PM   #24
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Let's move to T&T.
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Old June 22, 2009, 05:05 PM   #25
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how much ammo you NEED is always determined by what happens. When we choose to carry only a few rounds, its a gamble.

Now considering that you have a greater chance of winning the lotto than being assaulted, most folks luck out and its never really an issue.

Just how lucky do you feel when you leave home?
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