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Old June 29, 2009, 05:54 AM   #26
PT111
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Shooting someone = suck city.
There is a saying in the military that you never let the enemy show you a picture of their wife/girlfriend/children/family/etc. Once you see that picture you are going to have a hard time fighting them. There are some people that can kill someone, go home and sleep like a baby with no worry. They are called sociopaths. For the rest of us if you kill someone no matter what you it is going to change your life. I really would like some of you who have had to kill in the line of duty, mainly the military, to chime in on this.

It's not going to matter it is still going to be such city. You may think you have to do it to stay alive and it turn out you were wrong. That is going to suck even more. Just remember that.
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Old June 29, 2009, 08:20 AM   #27
easyG
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Wildalaska"
"Cower, cover, cell phone...." is the very best defense in every situation.
No, this is certainly not the best defense in every situation.
Every situation is different.
And law abiding citizens of this great nation should not "cower" at the mercy of the criminal element.

The police do a fairly decent job of catching criminals after they have killed, robbed, raped, etc...
But a police force does not necessarily make a society great or safe....
It's the citizens of that society, who rise up and take a stand against the predators, who make the difference.


As for whether this shooting was justified or not....

If the criminal/suspect did in fact break in to the business, then the criminal/suspect chose to place his life in jeopardy.
Sounds to me like he got what he deserved.
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Old June 29, 2009, 08:25 AM   #28
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There are some people that can kill someone, go home and sleep like a baby with no worry. They are called sociopaths. For the rest of us if you kill someone no matter what you it is going to change your life. I really would like some of you who have had to kill in the line of duty, mainly the military, to chime in on this.
You can call be a sociopath if you like, I don't care, but I killed some Iraqi soldiers during the Gulf War and it did not bother me at all.
They were shooting at us, we were shooting at them.
We succeeded and they failed.
It really is that simple.

BTW, I'm not an alcoholic nor a drug addict, I have a stable job and a great family, and I sleep just fine at night.
And I don't take taxpayer's money by claiming PTSD at the VA.
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Old June 29, 2009, 09:18 AM   #29
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Not putting your life in risk over property (which is probably insured) makes sense. However, I am a business owner and will check out the business if the alarm goes off. If I pulled up and saw a guy pointing something that looks like a weapon, I would most probably open fire. That is self defense and not defense of property. Its not like the store owner went into the business to "clear" it. He arrived and was met with what he believed to be deadly force. Seems like a justified shooting from that angle.

By the way, great posts from TailGator.

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Part of that employee training I mentioned in the first paragraph is that I tell employees that I can replace anything that a burglar steals or wrecks, but that they are unique, and loved by someone, and therefore irreplaceable. We would be reading a vastly different story if the burglar in this scenario had really been armed and had fired before the business owner could react. I don't see why a business owner would put himself or herself in that position.
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Old June 29, 2009, 11:15 AM   #30
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"Cower, cover, cell phone...." is the very best defense in every situation."



No, this is certainly not the best defense in every situation.
Every situation is different.
And law abiding citizens of this great nation should not "cower" at the mercy of the criminal element.

Well I disagree with you sir. Taking a position that is better suited to your defensive (Cower) holding that position (cover) and calling for backup ASAP (Cellphone) is, in most ever case imaginable (short of all those "SHTF" events we like so much to discuss), your best tactical option if it is at all possible. And those are tactics they taught you in the marines is it not?


Not to mention that first part (cower) creates an opportunity for the bad guy to either lessen aggression or escalate aggression. Which will serve both your conscience and the law should you be forced to shoot.


Quote:
and law abiding citizens of this great nation should not "cower" at the mercy of the criminal element.

I think people on TFL are harping to strongly on the cower (Coward ) part, maybe wildalaska needs to rephrase that a bit for the sake of everyones macho bravado


Maybe:

Deescalate, cover, cellphone . . .
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Old June 29, 2009, 11:41 AM   #31
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Taking a position that is better suited to your defensive (Cower) holding that position (cover) and calling for backup ASAP (Cellphone) is, in most ever case imaginable (short of all those "SHTF" events we like so much to discuss), your best tactical option if it is at all possible. And those are tactics they taught you in the marines is it not?
I was a soldier, not a marine, and no, we were never taught to "cower" in the face of the enemy.
And we did not call for backup ASAP unless we were being overwhelmed.

Sure we were taught to use cover and concealment when possible....but we sure as heck didn't sit in a hole waiting for the enemy to get tired and go home.
The object was to engage and destroy the enemy.

Obviously, as a civilian, one does not go on patrol seeking out "the enemy" as does a soldier.
But when confronted by the criminal element, one should not run away when one has the means to engage and stop the criminal.
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Old June 29, 2009, 11:45 AM   #32
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one should not run away when one has the means to engage and stop the criminal.
Why?
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Old June 29, 2009, 11:49 AM   #33
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Why?
It says alot about the state of our society when one even asks such a question.

Because, I feel that it is the duty of every good law abiding citizen to stop crime whenever possible.
Evil triumphs when good men stand by and do nothing....this might sound corny to some folks, but it is true nonetheless.

And when it comes to crime, this is another true statement:

If you're not part of the solution then you're part of the problem.
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Old June 29, 2009, 11:52 AM   #34
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Because, I feel that it is the duty of every good law abiding citizen to stop crime whenever possible.
I guess I'll be a bad citizen who goes home to his wife and kids rather than engage some thug stealing cigarettes.

I mean, stop a rape? Sure. Get killed because I confront some thug stealing from a grocery store? Not just no, HELL no.
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Old June 29, 2009, 12:02 PM   #35
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I guess I'll be a bad citizen who goes home to his wife and kids rather than engage some thug stealing cigarettes.
Yeah, that's the short-sighted sentiment of alot of folks.

But you have to look further down the road and ask yourself "what type of society am I leaving my children?" and "what am I teaching my children by letting the crime go unchallenged?"

Take a look at the most crime-free areas of your town and I'll bet you'll find an area where the people living there care and take an active role in stopping crime.

Take a look at the most crime ridden areas of your town and I'll bet you'll find an area where the people living there turn a blind-eye to the crimes being committed all around them.


Again, if one is not part of the solution, then one is part of the problem.
And you don't need to wear a badge to do the right thing.
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Old June 29, 2009, 12:05 PM   #36
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Take a look at the most crime-free areas of your town and I'll bet you'll find an area where the people living there care and take an active role in stopping crime.
Yeah.... except my whole town, nah, the whole area within 25 miles of me, is largely "crime free". The reason is because we still embrace the concept of teaching morals to our children, not because we "engage the enemy".

Or because we're watchful and report crime....

or because we actually care about our community....

Do not confuse a refusal to "engage" with doing nothing.
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Old June 29, 2009, 12:12 PM   #37
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I mean, stop a rape? Sure.
That right there puts you ahead of 99% of those who say "be a good witness and don't get involved."
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Old June 29, 2009, 12:31 PM   #38
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Yeah.... except my whole town, nah, the whole area within 25 miles of me, is largely "crime free". The reason is because we still embrace the concept of teaching morals to our children, not because we "engage the enemy".

Or because we're watchful and report crime....

or because we actually care about our community....
So you're telling me that there are no non-law-enforcement citizens in your whole town who would stop a criminal as he was committing a crime?


This is nothing to brag about.
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Old June 29, 2009, 12:39 PM   #39
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Wow...... lots of views on this post.
I much rather would like to go home telling my wife, kids and grandkids that I stopped a crime by calling 911 and waiting and watching the situation until the law got there to ensure there was an accurate accounting, instead of going home and telling them that I shot a guy 4 times thru a window and he wasn't armed.... but he DID point a tire iron at me thru a window while he was inside the building and I was outside! WOW... ya know it's one thing to actively defend yourself, your family or a third party that your in fear for their life/safety. But come on people.... lets be real about this. Like I said a few posts ago, this is still being investigated so all the facts are not out yet, but based on just what was in the papers and on the local news there is no way that this can be deemed self defense.
Everyones life, the 2 involved, and the families involved would have been much better if the storeowner just got 911 on his cell phone and gave a second be second accounting of what was going on while observing. Bad guy would be in alive and in jail and the storeowner wouldnt be sweating the outcome of the investigation.
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Old June 29, 2009, 12:40 PM   #40
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So you're telling me that there are no non-law-enforcement citizens in your whole town who would stop a criminal as he was committing a crime?


This is nothing to brag about.
I have no idea what action most of the people in my town would take to "stop a criminal". I sincerely hope that most of them would not impose the death penalty for property crimes, would not risk getting themselves killed over a burglary and would do something that is rationale, like whip out the ole' cell phone and call the police. Heck, maybe even yell "HEY, WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!" from a safe distance and place.

and, frankly, I consider not being willing to kill a human being over a property crime to be something, not to be bragged about, but something to be expected.

and, I have no desire to stop a crime so that I can "brag about" it.
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Old June 29, 2009, 01:07 PM   #41
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The jails and prisons of our society have become "crime college" with a revolving door, and our society continues to sink in to the toilet.

It greatly disappoints me to hear that some of my fellow countrymen would do so little to actually stop a crime in progress.
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Old June 29, 2009, 01:17 PM   #42
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It greatly disappoints me to hear that some of my fellow countrymen would do so little to actually stop a crime in progress.
It greatly disappoints me that my fellow countrymen are willing to kill over property crimes...
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Old June 29, 2009, 01:17 PM   #43
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EasyG.......

Which Countrymen do you speak of? Because, I read all these comments, including my own, as we will stop or assist in the stopping of crime, including defening my families lives, your and your families lives and my own if it includes taking anothers life to do it. But shooting thru a window when the bad guy wasnt armed.... thats a bit on the extreme side. I spent 26+ years defending this country and its beliefs and even though I am no longer on active duty I continue to do so everyday. I am proud that I can defend myself, my and your family the way I wish too. Confrontations especially when armed should be de-escalated not escalated. Be a good witness does not mean backdown. It means... be a good witness.
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Old June 29, 2009, 01:52 PM   #44
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Hello easyG:

I myself, tend to agree with your thoughts on this. A lot of folks want to jump on folks like us whenever we bring up the subject of stopping the crime and not lettting the bad guys rule our lives. They have done so to me many times when I commented on events like this. No problem as everyone has their own particular view on how to handle these things. However, no one has made me change my personal beliefs on what I should (or should not do) in these situations.

Of course it always depends on each and every scenario on how you will react. Certainly not everyone of us is going to "Cower, cover and cell phone" as a response to these crimes. Some others may take a more aggressive approach in stopping crime, (especially to our own home and/or business). I'm not saying that is always the best solution, but it will be a solution for some of us out here in the "Real World".

Note: With that said, the owner was outside his place of business and shooting through a window at the suspect inside (whom he thought had a gun). This probably a knee jerk reaction at that moment. Upon retrospect, he probably should have moved away from the window and phoned police. At the same time keeping his weapon on the ready, (in case the bad guy escalated the confrontation and approached him outside the bldg).
I personally don't believe you should let him just walk away scot free (when he tries to leave the buisness after commiting this felony). No way am I personally going to allow this to happen. It's up to others to make their own decisions on how they will react to crimes. I would never tell anyone how THEY should respond to these situations, (to each his own). However, I think I know how I will handle myself if this happens to me, (prior experience of me being robbed).

Last edited by skydiver3346; June 29, 2009 at 02:02 PM.
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Old June 29, 2009, 01:54 PM   #45
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USE OF FORCE AGAINST TRESPASSER
The common law in this state (VA) has long recognized the right of a
landowner to order a trespasser to leave, and if the trespasser refuses
to go, to employ proper force to expel him, provided no breach of the
peace is committed in the outset. . . . Absent extreme circumstances,
however, such force may not endanger human life or cause great bodily
harm.

The most basic breakdown for lethal force in Virginia would be as follows:
Allowed to protect yourself if you reasonably fear for your life.
Allowed to protect family members if you reasonably fear for their life.
Allowed to protect a third party if you reasonably fear for their life.
Women are allowed to use lethal force if they reasonably fear that they are going to be raped.

If your inside your building and a badguy enters..... defending yourself is one thing. BUT being outside a building.... looking inside thru a window claiming self defense........... uggggggggg thats a stretch.
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Old June 29, 2009, 02:10 PM   #46
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It greatly disappoints me to hear that some of my fellow countrymen would do so little to actually stop a crime in progress.

So you're telling me that there are no non-law-enforcement citizens in your whole town who would stop a criminal as he was committing a crime?
It does bother me greatly that there are those who will not report a crime in progress or provide information afterwards.

However, the citizen is rarely trained, not equipped, and not chartered to "stop" most crimes; he has no legally sanctioned departmental policies to follow; he cannot call for backup or receive information or instructions from a dispatcher; and he is never indemnified against civil charges should problems develop.

Quote:
And we did not call for backup ASAP unless we were being overwhelmed.
Law enforcement officers never go in alone except in cases of emergencies, and if a single officer does come upon a crime in progress, he will call for backup.

Quote:
The object was to engage and destroy the enemy.
That's war. In law enforcement, the duty of the sworn officer is to stop and detain the perp; he can use deadly force only when absolutely necessary to protect himself or others. Nor does the citizen have that right unless he is in imminent danger.

Quote:
But when confronted by the criminal element, one should not run away when one has the means to engage and stop the criminal.
The civilian may or may not have a legal duty to retreat. And while he may have a weapon, he may only use deadly force to "engage and stop" (effect a citizen's arrest of) a suspect in a couple of places in the country, and there, only under most extreme circumstances not at all like the burglary situation at hand.

There's a big, big difference between law enforcement and military combat, and big difference between the role of the sworn officer and that of a citizen.

It's interesting to muse about the possibility of an armed citizen acting to "stop" crime. It's also quite possible that in so doing, he may well end up committing a crime, perhaps far more serious than the one he endeavored to stop.

I once heard an address by the Chief Counsel for a major corporation. He talked about the travails of a couple of former luminaries who were then serving time for what they had thought to be reasonable acts. He started by rattling off a couple of long numbers, saying that they were not telephone numbers but prisoner numbers. It was chilling.

If any of that happens, our citizen will be regarded as the farthest thing from a hero.

Of course, it's possible that he might prevail in court--maybe broke and perhaps unemployed.

And then, on top of that, there are the issues of the citizen getting killed or maimed, costly civil suits and judgments involving the perp, and the repercussions of a bullet hitting a third party.

And if he does not end up in legal difficulty or get stabbed or shot by a criminal, he stands a reasonably high chance of being taken out by arriving policemen who see him with a gun.

I'll confine my shooting to the range and to lawful self defense.

Last edited by OldMarksman; June 29, 2009 at 02:12 PM. Reason: typo
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Old June 29, 2009, 02:23 PM   #47
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++1......... very well said OldMarksMan!
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Old June 29, 2009, 07:47 PM   #48
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From my post# 25

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If he had a pistol in a holster, quite different than pistol picked up from next to bed, placed in vehicle, drive a couple of minutes, jump out of vehicle, see broken window/door.

Blood pressure 160 over 95! not really wide awake yet, pistol is in hand, See's movement, a glint of metal? maybe, up gun, bang/bang etc.
The above is a good guess as to what quite possibly happened! No real need to get involved with long complected killing for a property, quite possibly insured, or being a "Coward" and calling 911, and waiting for the Police.


Long time ago, a person was arguing with me, reference him coming in to a place of business, late at night.

We were employed to monitor the individuals coming in, simple, I let you in, or not!

Very quickly he pulled his hand out of his pocket, a right cross, left him sitting dazed on the street! He was just pulling his handkerchief out of his pocket!

UK in the 60s, apologize, done. Everything is not a conscious thought process, some actions are predicated on instinct.

If he had a pistol in a holster, quite different than pistol picked up from next to bed, placed in vehicle, drive a couple of minutes, jump out of vehicle, see broken window/door.

Blood pressure 160 over 95! not really wide awake yet, pistol is in hand, See's movement, a glint of metal? maybe, up gun, bang/bang etc.


Is not the above, quite possibly what happened, based on the information we all had?
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Old June 29, 2009, 08:53 PM   #49
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And law abiding citizens of this great nation should not "cower" at the mercy of the criminal element.
and they should charge the threat at all costs...possibly dying and leaving their family alone with a DEAD father for what? To be called a hero? yeah right, I'll take being called a coward to provide for my family. Only if the person(s) being threatened are NOT my family.
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Old June 29, 2009, 11:22 PM   #50
easyG
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and they should charge the threat at all costs...
False argument.
Nobody ever said anything about charging the threat at all cost.
You don't have to charge in like you don't have a brain when confronting the criminal element.
You can still use cover and concealment and the element of surprise, and yes, less than lethal force to subdue a criminal.
But I hate it when folks here actually advise others to "cower" before the criminal element.
It's pathetic.
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