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Old June 22, 2009, 03:19 PM   #51
anythingshiny
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was not at the class in question but i have trained several times with tactical response.

the photog in question is a 100% btdt guy. he does not just walk downrange and start taking pictures. he watches the class and the indiv shooters, he asks if they are ok with him and if so he shoots photos. if not, then not.

it is NOT any training doctrine nor curriculum that the students must shoot.

there are none of the 4 rules broken.

is it touted as some warrior right of passage? no. far from it, the mentality of the class is fighting to survive an armed conflict. the 360 degree scans and the 'high sabrina' ready are all reality checks of a fight...not a nice flat NRA approved range with red lights that tell you when to stop shooting.

i understand the vehement internet feedback but stop for a real moment and consider that you will NOT pick the time, place and manner of your gunfight. you will not get to choose which direction the threat comes from nor what will be next to the threat.

there is a ton of chaff surrounding Yeager..and a lot of it is just that ..chaff.

i have trained at a few schools and have a number of hours under my belt. i found the instructors and the schools mindset to be professional and safe. you cannot judge the situation by 20 seconds of youtube.

< puts on flame suit>
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Old June 22, 2009, 04:20 PM   #52
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Anythingshiny, your explanation makes better sense than Yeager's, to be honest, but it also contradicts Yeager. Yeager himself defended this as a stress inoculation exercise.

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is it touted as some warrior right of passage?
Again, by Yeager, yes, it was.

Glad you had a good experience with him, but his credibility isn't real high with some folks because of the way he responded to the criticism.
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Old June 22, 2009, 04:20 PM   #53
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Maybe you were being sarcastic also creature?
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Old June 22, 2009, 04:45 PM   #54
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Alternately, consider the courtroom impact of this entire episode on future litigation, when the inevitable happens and someone downrange gets hit and injured - even with a part of a target or other secondary projectiles, nevermind with a round.

(Remember if your insurance company pays out on an injury to Party A, they reserve the right to sue to recover payments from the insurance company of Party B who may be found responsible. And neither Party A nor Party B have much to say in the matter - its handled by the insurance companies...)

Lawyer for the injured party: "members of the jury, we would like to show you this video clip from youtube, regarding a prior episode with Mr. Yeager's company, in which the safety of this behavior was previously debated. This proves that potential injury was patently foreseeable..."

"and now we would like you to see Mr. Yeager's comments regarding criticism of his training operations..."

"And now we'd like to present a few dozen expert witnesses that will testify before you that trainees (such as law enforcement officers) can be trained to engage armed adversaries without having photographers downrange..."

Hmmm...

Wonder what his insurance underwriters (or, if self-insured, his parent company) is going to have to say about the fall-out of this 'precedent'?


Last edited by Doc Intrepid; June 22, 2009 at 04:48 PM. Reason: typo
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Old June 22, 2009, 11:20 PM   #55
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Has Mas opined on this anywhere?
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Old June 22, 2009, 11:36 PM   #56
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So lets say you as a student sign a release, and whoops, you ding the photographer. Think he'll sue you for loss of income, etc etc? You held THEM blameless, but do they hold YOU blameless?
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Old June 23, 2009, 12:57 AM   #57
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...you will NOT pick the time, place and manner of your gunfight. you will not get to choose which direction the threat comes from nor what will be next to the threat.
What in the world has that got to do with putting people downrange during live fire? Many of the better training facilities are equipped with ranges/shoot-houses that allow a person to engage threats from virtually any direction. That doesn't require putting people next to targets that are being fired upon.
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there is a ton of chaff surrounding Yeager..and a lot of it is just that ..chaff.
The question you should be asking yourself is: WHY "there is a ton of chaff surrounding Yeager".
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...you cannot judge the situation by 20 seconds of youtube.
You just finished explaining that what was on the 20 seconds of youtube was not unusual for the school. Yeager also confirmed that in his rebuttal video. Which means that 20 seconds of youtube is representative of what goes on and therefore is a reasonable basis for judging the situation.
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Old June 23, 2009, 10:51 AM   #58
anythingshiny
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"What in the world has that got to do with putting people downrange during live fire? Many of the better training facilities are equipped with ranges/shoot-houses that allow a person to engage threats from virtually any direction. That doesn't require putting people next to targets that are being fired upon."

My comment about not choosing the time place etc had more to do with folks opinion of the 360 scan and the high sabrina ready position than the fact that a photographer was downrange.

Regarding the chaff and James Yeager...there is a 'cult of personality' that folks think they see. The ambush on BIAP as a catalyst for hatred is insanely blown out of proportion and that, to me, has spilled over to opinion of his school. The school itself is made up of many quality instructors who are safe, sane and very professional. I consider my self a well educated and rounded individual...do I 100% 'drink the koolaid'? No, I dont..I take what tools and mindset that I see fit and add them to the toolbox and move on.

No where in my post did I say this was 'usual' for the training..in fact I said quite the contrary. "it is NOT any training doctrine nor curriculum that the students must shoot".

In one class, the photographer asked if I was comfortable with him taking pictures next to my target. I made the decision that I was comfortable with my skill set and that I broke none of the 4 cardinal rules. That was my decision. It was not mandated or pushed upon me in any way, shape or form. Had I said.." hey dude, I'm not comfortable with that or I dont feel safe.." it would have ended there.

Could something have gone really really wrong? yes..absolutely it could have...in my opinion it was the same risk that I took even standing on the line with folks I dont personally know. I can control some things and not others...I made that decsion and feel comfortable with it, as did the photographer.

It is not my intention to be defensive on the issue, because I feel there were no 'rules' violated. Were any of the 4 rules violated in that video or at other classes? Don't know..wasn't there and isn't me doing the shooting.

I abhor the ' I am a warrior ' posturing that occurs on the internet and yes some of that goes on at Tactical Response exactly the same as on WT or ARFCOM or GlockTalk, but when I think of why I carry a gun, it is because I want to be prepared. And in my mind, being prepared is a big task.

So, YES there is a risk and YES it could have gone south with huge consequences...but so can everything else whether or not I had a say in it.
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Old June 23, 2009, 01:17 PM   #59
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The ambush on BIAP as a catalyst for hatred is insanely blown out of proportion and that, to me, has spilled over to opinion of his school.
Not necessarily. Was that particular ambush unique? Yes and no. Lots of people have been ambushed, numerous times, sometimes daily, on Irish. What made it somewhat unique was the poor performance of some of the people involved, including Mr. Yeager. What made it very unique is the fact that it was captured on video the way it was. What made it even MORE unique is that 3 guys died. (Mr. Yeager slandered the dead men and suggested that if they had "fought to cover" (his convenient description for his actions), as he did, then they might be alive.) And what made it almost completely unique is the fact that one of the poorest performers on that day came home and decided to make a "how to be a contracter" DVD, as if he was an expert on the matter.

It speaks to his character and motivation, and his willingness to purport himself to be an expert on things he is not.

Here he is again doing something ridiculous, and then defending it with a bunch of smoke and mirrors.

You are more than welcome to give him your money. I really could care less (other than not liking seeing people prosper from a crap product...in general) how you rate or value his "expertise"...that's your business. But let's not gloss over some very real facts about the guy.

I will give him this. He is a great salesman...or, more accurately, "BS-er". His little Heraclitis quote was brilliant. He already had people commenting things like, "I can't wait to come to your training and be one of the 9/1."

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Old June 23, 2009, 01:24 PM   #60
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Regarding the chaff and James Yeager...there is a 'cult of personality' that folks think they see. The ambush on BIAP as a catalyst for hatred is insanely blown out of proportion and that, to me, has spilled over to opinion of his school.
Well anything, you brought up the chaff about Yeager's supposed poor performance in Iraq and getting lots of people killed on April 20, 2005. However, I don't see any of that here, just chaff about the unsafe range and drivel put out by Yeager to defend it. There may be people here who don't like his school, but there are likely people here that don't like various schools and for various reasons. I would be willing to bet that many of the people here have no idea about the incident in question, outside of Bagdad, because they have never heard of it until now.

Yeager may have a good school with qualified instructors. Heck, the best instruction I received from Thunder Ranch in Texas had NOTHING to do with Clint Smith. Unless you are a one-man operation, you have to have other instructors. Ideally, you have good instructors that will make your school look good.

However, in Yeager fashion, he addressed the unsafe aspect of the video with a bunch of garbage and double talk, self promoting his supposed cutting edge techniques along the way. It is sort of like his 1000 round Glock video where the Glock experiences several malfunctions while being fired by Yeager, not the other shooter, and Yeager blames the "cheap" ammo. How ironic the cheap ammo only failed to work for him, but he blames the ammo and not himself. I am starting to see a pattern with Yeager...

It is fine that you had a good experience. That doesn't make what went on proper or safe and contrary to what Yeager was saying, the training did no stress inoculate the students. That was garbage pure and simple. If it was done for them, then why were they not all stress inoculated? Because what he is talking about being done is garbage, that is why. This wasn't for the students. It was to get some cool action shots of the class for promoting Tactical Response and/or for the making of product videos to sell by Tactical Response.
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Old June 23, 2009, 01:57 PM   #61
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If anyone missed it from the original post: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...raining-video/

And if you look at the guy in the white shirt who is shooting in the general direction of the target of the soon-to-be late photographer's right, he has some sort of misfire, looks around totally clueless, stands up and finally puts another magazine in his gun and starts firing again. These aren't some mercenaries training for jungle duty! These are just ordinary city folk that appear to be handling a firearm for the first time.

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Old June 23, 2009, 02:47 PM   #62
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I would not fire a gun with any innocent person downrange. I would not shoot with anyone who would. End of story.
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Old June 23, 2009, 04:19 PM   #63
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succinct and correct well done Peetza
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Old June 23, 2009, 05:41 PM   #64
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What makes you think he is innocent?
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Old June 23, 2009, 05:49 PM   #65
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B.O.T.D???
Benefit of the doubt...
The more I read of this feller, the more I question his ability to provide quality training to anyone! Not the paparazzi.. the yaeger guy! Not much in his google history says he is qualified to train citizens in the free world!
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Old June 23, 2009, 11:26 PM   #66
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I was struck by the wild variation in skills displayed. Two folks were "Zebco-ing" their draw stroke and the guy who did a 360 seemed to be following some bizarre dance steps to a tune only he could hear.

Ditto on the "Yeager and Suarez - two of a kind" thoughts..

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Old June 24, 2009, 12:04 AM   #67
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This kind of stupidity is typical of Yeager. If he had any sense, he would have admitted fault, made corrections and move on. This guy's ego won't allow him to do anything but self promote. I have never seen a bigger, "I am super warrior" self promoter. The truth is, the one time in this guy's life that he had a chance to prove himself, he failed miserably. I could forgive the guy for his failings and even give him credit as an instructor (those who can do those who can't teach). But, he's just too stupid to accept the fact that he is not the world's greatest ninja and that he's made mistakes. I challenge anyone to tell me how this training course was "enhanced" by having a moron down range?
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Old June 24, 2009, 12:15 AM   #68
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No where in my post did I say this was 'usual' for the training..in fact I said quite the contrary. "it is NOT any training doctrine nor curriculum that the students must shoot".
I'm not interested in debating the definition of the word: "usual". The point is that it is not UNusual for this to happen during training at TR. Yeager's rebuttal clearly made it sound like it was not only something that was done regularly but he also made it sound like it was important in the training.

The point is that the stuff going on in that video happens at TR all the time. Maybe that doesn't fit your definition of "usual" or "representative", but people who go there/train there should expect to see it and that fits most people's definition of "usual" and "representative".
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The ambush on BIAP as a catalyst for hatred is insanely blown out of proportion and that, to me, has spilled over to opinion of his school.
I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. This isn't about what Yeager has done in the past (I don't even know what he's done in the past), it's about what he is doing today and what he's defending in his rebuttal video.

That said, I have to say that it wouldn't surprise me to find that there were some sort of SNAFU in Mr. Yeager's past. And it won't surprise me when he has his next one either.
Quote:
So, YES there is a risk and YES it could have gone south with huge consequences...but so can everything else whether or not I had a say in it.
Bad things happen. The goal of intelligent people is to be able to walk away after a bad thing happens knowing that they didn't do stupid things to help create the problem.
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Old June 25, 2009, 04:09 PM   #69
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Its been a few days since the incident...is this company even still in business?
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Old June 25, 2009, 06:13 PM   #70
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Creature, of course they are and they will continue to be. They have a loyal following of people who consider themselves to be "warriors." He is big on the "warrior mentality" as expressed in his rebuttal video. Yeager, to a certain extent, is another gun school guru that is blindly followed because "he has been there and done that" and the like. So until people start getting hurt, no doubt his school will remain in business.

As noted, his "warriors" in that video are awfully neophytic. Being "warriors" doesn't make the students competent.
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Old June 25, 2009, 06:23 PM   #71
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I remember doing a live-fire exercise with an M16 in Marine Combat Training, and moving the barrel past about 40 degrees off of straight-ahead downrange... and that was the last thing I remember for a minute or so, because a couple of instructors tackled me so hard I blacked out. I can't imagine any safe and sane instructor intentionally putting anyone IN FRONT OF the line of fire.
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Old June 26, 2009, 09:37 AM   #72
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Unbelievable! As I was reading these posts about a photographer 'downrange', and then saw Yeager's rebuttal video, with him talking about the 180-degree rule, I imagined that perhaps the photographer had been somewhere in front of, but -off to the side- of the firing line...

Whoa! then I saw the actual video, and there is the photographer crouched down between two silhouette targets that there is barely room for him to squeeze in between...

Inexcusable - unsafe - it leaves me almost speechless. I can't understand how anybody could even attempt to defend this type of behavior.
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Old June 26, 2009, 10:11 AM   #73
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Just thinking about this - my mind flashed back to an IDPA match where a competitor who I'd seen shoot several times draw his 1911 and shoot around into the ground about an inch from the foot of the SO and a foot from the foot of the Score keeper (me).

I also know that that the IDPA indoor champ match just a few months ago a long time competitor shot himself down the leg and luckily the EMTs there saved him from a bleed out.

So squatting down isn't a gurantee of squat.
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Old June 26, 2009, 10:28 AM   #74
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Are there any links to this? There must be a lesson to be learned here.

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I also know that that the IDPA indoor champ match just a few months ago a long time competitor shot himself down the leg and luckily the EMTs there saved him from a bleed out.
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Old June 26, 2009, 10:52 AM   #75
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There must be a lesson to be learned here.
Yep. A pretty simple one. Lots of folks who consider themselves experts or warriors or who master one aspect of shooting get very arrogant when it comes to safety and wind up needlessly putting themselves or others in harm's way. I've seen plenty of these folks at various ranges, and whenever I do see one, I exit immediately.
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