The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old June 24, 2009, 02:48 PM   #76
Wildalaska
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,174
Quote:
If we are to discuss tactics rather than character, I have to ask, for the third time, what should he have done differently? He has been harshly criticized hereon, but I have not read a post that suggested a viable alternative to his actions.
I for one havent critisized his actions, I merely asked him a series of questions in response to his averment to the door pounder that she would be shot

These questions were, again:
"Shot for what Kicking your door in? Was she a threat? was she committing a burglary? What is the governing statute in your jurisdiction ? Can you shoot someone who kicks down your door and enters without more?"

None of which have been answered by the poster.

WildandithinkhedidwellnottoanswerthedoorAlaska ™
Wildalaska is offline  
Old June 24, 2009, 02:51 PM   #77
comn-cents
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2008
Location: Pac.N.W.
Posts: 1,804
I still don't get it.

Don't open your door if you don't know the person.
Call 911, if she is running from someone and you see this person attacking her/he on your front door step. Put a bullet in them (the attacker)
I don't see it getting more complicated than that.
The End!

There are so many "what if's" that I can think of but it's pretty simple.

People have created this untrusting world and I'm willing to be part of the village to help make it better. But I won't put my family in danger.

This reminds me of the same people who hate the police the most, also scream the most when they aren't there fast enough to help them.
__________________
Be Smarter Than A Bore-Snake!
comn-cents is offline  
Old June 24, 2009, 03:22 PM   #78
DougO83
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 1, 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 386
Quote:
These questions were, again:

Quote:
"Shot for what Kicking your door in?
Nobody has shot anybody yet. We are discussing whether or not we should be prepared to do so. And yes, you can be shot for kicking a door in. B&E of an obviously occupied dwelling is a situation where lethal force can be justified.

Quote:
Was she a threat?
If one has drawn their weapon, sought out concealment or what have you, and has decided to call 911, the person is CLEARLY a threat. The average citizen has no responsibility to even attempt to determine the intentions of someone attempting to beat their door down.

Quote:
was she committing a burglary?
Who knows? It is not my job, or any citizen's job to figure this out. Burglary, per Webster's, is all about intent:
Quote:
the act of breaking and entering a dwelling at night to commit a felony (as theft) ; broadly : the entering of a building with the intent to commit a crime
How, wild, does one judge another's intent? I understand that this works both ways. Most assume the affirmative in this situation. It isn't very common for someone to break into a home with good intentions.

Quote:
What is the governing statute in your jurisdiction?

This is the most important bit of discussion out of all 4 pages. What does your state say? Mine says I can shoot. As I have mentioned, I will try other options first, but rest assured that I am running every scenario, even the absolute worst, through my mind. I don't advocate 'daring' someone to come through the door, but they will certainly be made aware that I feel threatened by their attempts.

Quote:
Can you shoot someone who kicks down your door and enters without more?
Well, yes, you can. "I was in fear of my life." Regardless of age, gender, number, etc...one can consider it quite reasonable to be in fear of their life if a person kicks, or is attempting to kick, a door down to enter a residence.

It all boils down to two things it seems: Jurisdiction issues and Morality. This is not to say that lethal force in this situation is moral or immoral. I feel that it is a strictly amoral choice. Sure, it has consequences, but I think it is a personal decision that cannot be rebuked or questioned by those not personally involved with the incident. When I read about homeowners defending themselves or another criminal killed by LE, I do not jump for joy and praise the death of another. OTOH I do not pine away at the loss. I am rather indifferent on the matter, the only solace I see in a shooting death situation is that a crime was stopped. Death is a tragic thing, violent death is much more so. I do not hope to deal it out to anyone, but I will if forced into that situation.

Quote:
If cower CAN be out of fear it does not NEED be out of fear. How about addressing the SUBSTANCE of the question, rather than finding countless internet adjectives?
You were soundly proven wrong, now we are going to discuss substance?

Quote:
The correct response in this situation is to remove oneself from the threat to the maximum degree PRACTICAL and SAFE. It is neither practical nor safe to stand in front of ones door while someone is trying to break it down, kick it in, or is banging away like a nut job
.

Neither is hiding in a safe room. Many homes are not equipped with one. All the rooms in my home have a window to the outside. Nothing "safe" about that.

Quote:
The most practical and safest response is to retreat to a safe area in your house and let LE do their job.
There is a small problem here. We call it 'response time.' Police departments have taken budget and staff cuts hard this year. That means less manpower without a decrease in reasons to need police assistance. It's been in the news for a while now...

Quote:
That would be the job that YOU pay them to do.
I pay the police to do a plethora of tasks. That doesn't make them any less overworked. Even right now, at 1530, if I was to call the local PD, I could be guaranteed about a 20 minute wait on a call. They are busy and they are few.
__________________
"You can all go to hell, I'm going to Texas."
---Colonel David Crockett

Matt 6:33

Last edited by DougO83; June 24, 2009 at 03:31 PM.
DougO83 is offline  
Old June 24, 2009, 03:29 PM   #79
RevJim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 2, 2005
Location: Greenville, TX
Posts: 103
Texas Killer

I must say, I find some of the comments quite interesting! Texas has always had a different culture, some would say a gunslinger mentality. For those who have not lived in Texas or were not born in Texas, it is easily misunderstood. Many laws were written when Texas was a sovereign nation, so they are different than other states.

Texas is indeed a bloody, violent state. We really can shoot people for stealing a $2 shovel, but only at night. So you can imagine that thousands upon thousands of criminals get gunned down every year for petty larceny and shoplifting. Gunfights in the street, bullets spraying across neighborhoods! We really live in the Wild, Wild West!

Actually, Texans pride themselves, not on gun-toting rights, but on common sense and common descency. We do not shoot people for stealing shovels or hats or even cars. In Texas, we know that our stuff is not worth a life, even someone who cheapens his life to the value of a $2 shovel. But we also believe in right and wrong! Our laws are designed to deter crime and allow law-abiding citizens to live and let live.

In theory, one should cower as far from a threat as possible (one should consider both denotation and connotation of a word), but in reality it may not be that easy. When someone starts banging on the door in the middle of the night, it is not always a swift task to get the whole family in one place to cower, seek shelter, and evaluate. I am envious of those of you who can. I would need to carry children from different rooms to a common area. I am sure many of you could do that while carry a gun, calling 9-1-1, and staying vigilent as to the actions of the person/persons banging on my door. I do not possess these qualities. I would, however, place myself between the door and my family. If anyone burst through the door, I would start blazing away Jesse James style!

Please understand: Texas has different laws because we have a different culture and mindset. Our laws would not work in another state, and another state's laws would not work here. So please do not refer to our laws as Draconian or Bloody, and please do not insinuate that we love to gun people down for petty offenses.

The homeowner in Texas opened the door to strangers. As has been stated, this ploy has been used many times. I have heard of several such attempted home invasions being thwarted by the display of a weapon. Perhaps the homeowner woRarely do I hear of innocent people gunned down in the dark of the night (I can only think of one, and that happened 15 years ago).

I know Texans are weird and we have weird laws. But they work for us!
RevJim is offline  
Old June 24, 2009, 03:46 PM   #80
TailGator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,015
Quote:
I for one havent critisized his actions, I merely asked him a series of questions . . . None of which have been answered by the poster.
I am often in your camp, WA, but I have to say that I took your posts as being highly critical of his actions, not the least because you signed it with a reference to testosterone.

Considering the accusatory tone of the responses to his post, it may well be that he has chosen not to participate further in the discussion.

May I remind you, in a friendly way, that neither you nor any of those participants who joined you in questioning his actions and motives, have responded in any way to my questions about alternative courses of actions? Your point that we need to know the laws in our jurisdiction are well taken, but in a forum on tactics and training should we not be discussing tactics? The question, honestly and sincerely, remains open, what other tactic besides taking a defensive position and calling the police do you have to recommend? If you prefer, perhaps I should rephrase the question this way: Are there jurisdictions in which kicking the door in on an occupied dwelling would not be considered a threat justifying the use of lethal force, and if so, what defensive tactics remain in those jurisdictions?

Last edited by TailGator; June 24, 2009 at 03:52 PM.
TailGator is offline  
Old June 24, 2009, 03:50 PM   #81
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,791
Quote:
I pay the police to do a plethora of tasks. That doesn't make them any less overworked. Even right now, at 1530, if I was to call the local PD, I could be guaranteed about a 20 minute wait on a call. They are busy and they are few.
Irrelevant. A tactical position in a relatively safe area of your house is the wise thing to do. Police response 2 minutes or 2 hours. Stay there until the police arrive. If someone attempts to breech the final sanctum, then the use of lethal force is almost certainly warranted. Placing yourself (or staying) in harms way because of long police response time is completely illogical. It is the absolute wrong thing to do. Think about it. If your going to do something dangerous, wouldn't you want help to be sooner rather than later and if you knew help was going to be long in coming wouldn't that be the time when you most wanted to play it safe?

They are busy and they are few, yes. They also drop things like traffic tickets and load muffler complaints when someone is kicking in a house door. Just because it takes them 20 minutes to respond when you call about your neighbor being loud doesn't mean they take 20 minutes with an actual trouble call.


Quote:
neither you nor any of those participants who joined you in questioning his actions and motives, have responded in any way to my questions about alternative courses of actions?
That is simply not true. I haven't stated before, and again in this post, exactly what he SHOULD have done.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old June 24, 2009, 04:00 PM   #82
DougO83
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 1, 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 386
Not even worth the time anymore...I have a special place for ya...
__________________
"You can all go to hell, I'm going to Texas."
---Colonel David Crockett

Matt 6:33

Last edited by DougO83; June 24, 2009 at 04:08 PM.
DougO83 is offline  
Old June 24, 2009, 04:18 PM   #83
Brian Pfleuger
Staff
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Central, Southern NY, USA
Posts: 18,791
Ok you're right.

Stand and fight. Defend your castle. Don't make tactical decisions, don't attempt to find a safer place to defend yourself from, don't worry about whether the person could be an innocent instead of an aggressor.
__________________
Still happily answering to the call-sign Peetza.
---
The problem, as you so eloquently put it, is choice.
-The Architect
-----
He is no fool who gives what he can not keep to gain what he can not lose.
-Jim Eliott, paraphrasing Philip Henry.
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old June 24, 2009, 04:26 PM   #84
pax
Staff
 
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: Washington state
Posts: 6,959
Shoulda listened to my instincts earlier.

Closed.

*sigh*

pax
__________________
Kathy Jackson
My personal website: Cornered Cat
pax is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.09370 seconds with 7 queries