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Old June 19, 2009, 01:46 PM   #1
N.H. Yankee
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Perp shot multiple times 40S&W and 223 still fighting when cuffed

I read this from another forum and to be blunt, think I should be looking for an RPG for PP. The perp ambushed officers using a 45acp and was involved in a 3 and a half minute gunfight.

If I read rightThe perp was hit 6 times mostly torso hits with 180gr gold dot and then hit with 16 rounds from a 223, 13 of which were passthroughs. They still had to fight him to cuff him! I am assuming he died as he had an autopsy performed.

The initial report from the coroner siad the 40S&W gold dot expanded but only penetrated an inch. The brief at the bottom says that some of the information regarding this was wrong. I have never been a real big fan of 180gr 40S&W ammo, but I wish they had posted what the gold dots really did.

WARNING GRAPHIC PICTURES FROM THE MORGUE
The info is at http://www.defensivecarry.com/documents/officer.pdf
WARNING/WARNING VERY GRAPHIC PHOTO"S
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Old June 19, 2009, 02:15 PM   #2
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The last bullet item sums everything up perfectly:
  • Shot placement is everything in a gunfight
    and always the key to stopping a threat
    effectively.

It's ALL about practice folks! Practice, practice and MORE practice! Ya gotta be able to hit what ya aim at!
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Old June 19, 2009, 02:16 PM   #3
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There are lots of stories of lots of people surviving multiple gunshot wounds, from handguns, rifles, muskets, and so on. Nothing is guaranteed, ever.

Your defensive firearms are a tool for survival true, but they should not be viewed as guaranteeing anything. There will always be exceptional incidents, and unpredictable results.
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Old June 19, 2009, 02:22 PM   #4
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well good thing my Gold Dots are 165 gr.
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Old June 19, 2009, 02:54 PM   #5
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Gunfight lasted 3.5 minutes (210 seconds) and the officers fired 107 shots. Than's one shot per 1.96 seconds or one shot per officer every 3.92 seconds. Obviously they never heard of AIMED FIRE.

Not a single shot (that I saw) above the sternum. If I hit you COM and you don't go down then you can look for follow up shots (and see them) as they land between your eyes!!!!! IMHO, this should be chalked up to poor training.
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Old June 19, 2009, 03:20 PM   #6
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I'm no expert, but I'd have to agree w/ Bailey Boat
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Old June 19, 2009, 03:25 PM   #7
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almost all of this is hard to believe.
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Old June 19, 2009, 03:26 PM   #8
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Bailey and headbanger,

Try not to arm chair quarterback what YOU would have done in that situation. When you're being shot at, things change QUICKLY. There's no telling what you would have done until you're there. It's still a win for the good guys.

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Old June 19, 2009, 03:27 PM   #9
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Its easy to second guess and critique from the safety of our computers. Real life shooting results tend to be a little different than what happens on a static range at a target that isnt aggressively shooting at you.

As far as the dead boy goes, he wasnt aware that he was supposed to just die because he was shot, and it doesnt appear he was all that impressed with the police or what they were using. I doubt the results would have been much different, regardless what that was either. It does go to show, you aint dead until you are, and when you are, you wont know it, so if your going to fight, give it your best and give'em hell. Theres a good chance you may be the last man standing, or at least, one of the last to die.

I'm not suggesting that what he did was right, but from a technical standpoint, what he did was right, or at least, in the right direction.
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Old June 19, 2009, 03:28 PM   #10
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This has been discussed at length.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=324771
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Old June 19, 2009, 03:48 PM   #11
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Shot placement was indeed poor for the vast majority of shots. But I did see one .40 S&W bullet embedded in his neck, and another that is in his chest that appears to have clipped the bottom of his heart.

What I am most struck by is that:

A) The 180 gr Gold Dot bullets all show very little expansion. The one embedded in his neck shows basically none at all.

B) It seems that almost all of the .223 rounds went clear through him.

If bullets had been used that expanded and fragmented better, then I think that this gun fight would have ended sooner, despite the poor marksmanship.

The guy did receive many disabling wounds. His right elbow was totally destroyed by one 223 round. And his left ankle was completely pulverized by multiple hits. So he could not walk, or be able to use his right arm at all, after those hits.

The most ironic thing was that great big tattoo on his arm. It pretty much summed up his life. He apparently lived his life the way he wanted to.

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Old June 19, 2009, 03:54 PM   #12
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Quote: "Its easy to second guess and critique from the safety of our computers. Real life shooting results tend to be a little different than what happens on a static range at a target that isnt aggressively shooting at you."

Trust me, I'm NOT arm chair quarterbacking, been there, done that, got the tee shirt, the hat AND the belt.... and survived to live another day....
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Old June 19, 2009, 03:58 PM   #13
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But you didnt get the bumper sticker, key chain and lapel pin, so you really aint all that.
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Old June 19, 2009, 04:02 PM   #14
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Looks like he's got al little boo boo on his arm

As far a the 1" penetration goes, i'm pretty sure those passed through something else before landing.
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Old June 19, 2009, 04:32 PM   #15
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comn-cents has it figured out...I agree.
A the report was a little too flippant to contain much substance.
I'm not buying it.
A pretty clear anti-40SW agenda.
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Old June 19, 2009, 04:47 PM   #16
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Shotguns still have their use, especially at close range in a gun fight. Mozambique shooting techniques with a 12 gauge shotgun rule. Use either 00 buckshot or slugs and you'll take the fight right out of the bad guy.
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Old June 19, 2009, 05:00 PM   #17
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Gunfight survival training can only go so far, the rest is up to ones ability to focus, along with accuracy and LUCK! We all shoot targets but when the target is shooting back time either goes SloMo or 100MPH. This is where training equals Instinct, but not everyone is wired the same and some people just flat out panic.

Fact is every traumatic situation is different in itself and situations can have an impact on the best of us to the point we don't perform as we did in previous incidents. Thank God none of the officers were killed, I think under the circumstances they did OK for themselves. Looking at the hits is one thing for us, we weren't there and have no real idea what there were for barriers protecting the perp.

Sadly spray and pray incidents involving law enforcement has given the LEO community a black eye and many incidents like this get negative reviews. All in all it turned out right, despite some wounds to law enforcement. No one can insure one shot stop under the best of circumstances, Iv'e read the brain still functions for about 15 seconds with the heart stopped, thats plenty of time for the assailant to do plenty of damage.

I never had much faith in the Sanow Marshall one shot stop rating. One shot stop, could mean anything. The perp got hit once who knows where and gave up? The term ( One shot stop ) doesn't explain the scenerio at all unless its one shot kill. I think the majority of perps give it up after being shot, this guy had a small amount of drugs in his system but was it enough for him to keep fighting?

I think there are many facts about this incident that are missing and would really like the WHOLE story. Four layers of denim and only 1 inch penetration? Heck my Daisy Red Rider can do better than that! I think the coroners report is either incomplete, the coroner wasn't well trained or as I said other facts are absent. Like others have said the bullets must have hit a barrier of some sort. It just doesn't make sense, even if the nose plugged up then it would act more like a FMJ, but the report said that 5 out of 6 were expanded.
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Old June 19, 2009, 05:25 PM   #18
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Quote:
this guy had a small amount of drugs in his system but was it enough for him to keep fighting?
Psh, it was marijuana, I'm surprised he was fighting as hard as he was...
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Old June 19, 2009, 05:27 PM   #19
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maybe he was fighting for the next Ding Dong in the box? That could be motivating.
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Old June 19, 2009, 05:35 PM   #20
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Quote:
The initial report from the coroner siad the 40S&W gold dot expanded but only penetrated an inch.
"hit five times in the chest and torso. All rounds penetrated less than an inch".

"all rounds expanded perfectly" That includes round to the throat that also penetrated a wopping 1".

"Subject was wearing a down jacket."

Well, at least all the bullets were in "prestine condition".

No wonder ducks can be hard to kill when wearing their heavy winter down coats.

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Old June 19, 2009, 05:41 PM   #21
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I believe the rest of the story was that the medical examiner may or may not have been competent to do his job, as penetration was shown to be in excess of 1" on all hits when the FBI and national-level law enforcement community got interested in this story.

If I recall other aspects of the story, there was cover involved and the guy died hard. Happens sometimes.
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Old June 19, 2009, 07:49 PM   #22
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The written summary of what happened does not conform to the x-ray evidence.
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Old June 19, 2009, 09:54 PM   #23
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I really liked all those failure to stop shots in the hip region. All those shots and only one rifle round damaged the hip structure...but look at all the wounds on the hips and buttocks from rounds that should have "shattered the hip" or "broken the pelvic girdle."
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Old June 19, 2009, 10:07 PM   #24
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That is incredible:

I like his tatoo: "live by the gun, die by the gun"....

Hard to believe that he took that many rounds and perp still had to be handcuffed after it was over. If that doesn't prove to you that "Shot Placement" is the most important factor in a gunfight, nothing does.
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Old June 19, 2009, 10:16 PM   #25
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+1 for rifleman 173
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