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Old June 21, 2009, 04:17 PM   #151
Lost Sheep
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A Clockwork Orange

A little off-topic, but only a little.

I observe an acceptance of laws that seem to have turned us into cast members of the novel/movie A Clockwork Orange.

Depressing.

Contact your legislators. Become a legislator.

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Old June 21, 2009, 07:30 PM   #152
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Wow I love this thread! And I will stick to OC spray, I didnt realize the wasp spray stuff was illegal( I have never held a can of it, and my mom suggested it).
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Old June 21, 2009, 08:12 PM   #153
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Yeah, hose him with OC, then hose him some more.

Just for idle speculation, though, I wonder what the scummie's reaction would be if you doused him with flamable liquid, stepped back and let him hear the 'ker-clink' of snapping your Zippo open . . . .
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Old June 22, 2009, 03:19 AM   #154
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Speaking of the hose, use a pressure washer. It won't cause any permanent damage (usually) and can hurt like hell...
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Old June 22, 2009, 01:16 PM   #155
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There would sure as hell be some temptation to blow a hole in his foot...
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Old June 22, 2009, 01:31 PM   #156
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By the time, I dig my pressure washer out of the garage and hook it up, the guy is probably gone.

The OC sounds like a good bet. Keep one by the front door and/or in the garage.

BTW, in the garage - I have one of those 25 foot range Wasp sprays (which are bad for you). That's a nice treat.
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Old June 22, 2009, 04:50 PM   #157
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For wasps, use diesel fuel in a plastic spray bottle, wont ignite and the wasps will die as soon as it hits em. Diesel needs high temps to ignite a lighter or match wont do it.

It also works in a BGs eyes, spray then run to a phone...
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Old June 22, 2009, 05:00 PM   #158
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I'll admit I did not read all the thread, but how did the guy get there? Is his car parked in front of your house? You could do a little pay back right then with a ball bat against his head lights and windshield.

Speaking of that ball bat, a few hefty whacks against the soles of his feet would put him in a different frame of mind as well.
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Old June 22, 2009, 06:21 PM   #159
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So let me get this straight, a leg's hangin' out the door of my Mustang and some ass-hat is yanking the stereo I installed myself? He does not respond favorably to my commands. I know I can't shoot him but I'll slam his leg in the door hard enough to get his attention and hold it to keep him there. If he wants to get froggy after that it's his call. Either way, before he decides there'll be 85 pounds of fur, teeth and mad at being woke up comin' in the other door of the car. My dog always goes out with me at night. Takin' the garbage out, gettin' something out of the car, etc.
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Old June 22, 2009, 09:59 PM   #160
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The way I see it, from a legal standpoint, deadly force is out of the question as is assault. However, if it falls within the law that force can be applied to prevent him from leaving, just lean on the door and wait the half hour for the cops. (Worst case scenario is he loses a leg or his foot due to loss of circulation to his extremity at which point he probably could sue you and win... :barf
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Old June 22, 2009, 10:09 PM   #161
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Well that all depends on where your from reading the laws for your home states is the best way on finding out what you can do and can't do. Where you are from it may be illegal to put a whoopin on him but where I'm from if he is up to anything not good on my property I can whoop em and throw him in the ditch for the cops to scoop up and take to jail.
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Old June 23, 2009, 08:48 AM   #162
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Quote:
Diesel needs high temps to ignite a lighter or match wont do it.
Not entirely true.
I use diesel all the time to burn brush piles because it doesn't explode like gasoline does.
Gasoline evaporates very quickly and fills the surrounding air with fumes.
When you touch a match to the pile (or get a match close to the pile)... FOOM! a big scary mushroom cloud like explosion occurs.
Diesel fuel doesn't evaporate like gas does and burns more slowly.
Diesel ignites in an engine because of the high pressure and temperature.

And as a result of this thread, I am going out to get some OC spray.
It seems like a good idea to have some around.
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Old June 23, 2009, 08:59 AM   #163
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Since there can be some issues with "recoil" using spew... I prefer to prepare in advance and use exhaust fumes... Just last night I was testing a new formulation using egg salad samiches, grilled chicken salad with a raspberry vinagrette dressing and mangos topped off with several Ice House beers... Brought tears to my daughters eyes without direct dispersal. One of them let loose in the vehicle and slam door shut and I WIN!!!
I still think a can of air freshener spray (mentioned 100-ish posts ago), in that enclosed space would be worse. Plus, it'd probably be easier to salvage the car afterwards. Egg salad and cheap beer fumes could ruin the upholstery and etch all the windows
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Old June 23, 2009, 09:53 AM   #164
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Antoher Real Incident

Something to consider.

Some months ago in New York State, there was a real incident along the lines of the scenario described

Before anyone jumps to the conclusion that the state in question is the reason, be aware that NYS is one of the very few places in which a non-sworn citizen can legally use deadly force to effect a citizen's arrest (under limited circumstances, of course). Not applicable here but intended to put things in perspective. You cannot do that in Florida, for example.

A law abiding citizen and licensed handgun owner want outside at night to investigate noises from some guys who were getting into parked cars.

A couple of them fled, but one approached the man. He fired, killing the perp.

The citizen said it was self-defense. No weapon was found.

The DA, who supports the right of law abiding citizens to have guns, filed charges of murder in the first degree.

The grand jury reduced the charge to manslaughter.

Back to the OP: there's the civil and criminal legal risk if things do go south fast, and I'm not fond of going out under the preconceived notion that the guy doesn't have an armed accomplice in the getaway car.
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Old June 23, 2009, 07:46 PM   #165
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Is there a state that doesn't allow citizen's arrests, when you actually witness the felony occur?

For example: http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=17276
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Old June 23, 2009, 07:52 PM   #166
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Quote:
Is there a state that doesn't allow citizen's arrests,...
It's not the arrest part, it's the lethal force to affect the arrest part.
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Old June 23, 2009, 08:56 PM   #167
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Time to recap some of what we've learned.
  • Passive resistance negates the implied force of a firearm.
  • It also reduces your options in how much force you can legally use.
  • Be prepared to use alternative levels of force at all times.
  • As long as he passively resists, your use of force must be the minimum necessary to stop or apprehend him.
  • Permanently injuring him will likely be deemed an illegal assault. Use caution in your application of force.
  • Provoking him to violence may be viewed as escalating the situation so you could shoot him. Use care.
  • You do not need to be polite, courteous or nice about your commands or application of force. But you must be within legal limits.
  • If nothing else, video or photos of him in the act are always good evidence.
  • It is unwise to attempt to capture - handcuff or tie him up - alone. It's better to drive him away.
  • If you incapacitate him, you're responsible for his safety (i.e. not allowing him to suffocate, drown, etc.)
  • The use of non-lethal and non-permanently injuring equipment is preferred -- OC spray, taser, stun gun, etc. - but only to enforce his compliance, not as a punitive action.
  • Always look for his accomplice(s) and/or his means of escape (car, bike, bicycle, etc.)
  • Know your state laws regarding arrests and using force to protect your property.

As satisfying as it may be to get your "pound of flesh" for his damaging your property, the legal system does protect him (and everyone else) from excessive and unnecessary force.
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Old June 23, 2009, 10:13 PM   #168
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Quote:
* Passive resistance negates the implied force of a firearm.
* It also reduces your options in how much force you can legally use.
* Be prepared to use alternative levels of force at all times.
* As long as he passively resists, your use of force must be the minimum necessary to stop or apprehend him.
* Permanently injuring him will likely be deemed an illegal assault. Use caution in your application of force.
* Provoking him to violence may be viewed as escalating the situation so you could shoot him. Use care.
* You do not need to be polite, courteous or nice about your commands or application of force. But you must be within legal limits.
* If nothing else, video or photos of him in the act are always good evidence.
* It is unwise to attempt to capture - handcuff or tie him up - alone. It's better to drive him away.
* If you incapacitate him, you're responsible for his safety (i.e. not allowing him to suffocate, drown, etc.)
* The use of non-lethal and non-permanently injuring equipment is preferred -- OC spray, taser, stun gun, etc. - but only to enforce his compliance, not as a punitive action.
* Always look for his accomplice(s) and/or his means of escape (car, bike, bicycle, etc.)
* Know your state laws regarding arrests and using force to protect your property.
Sounds like a training sesssion for cops in handling civil disobedience...I think I will go chain myself into a porno booth to protest smut...

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Old June 23, 2009, 10:39 PM   #169
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Makes me wonder...

...Where the original post falls, legally, in a Use of Force Continuum?

1) Offender has illegally trespassed on your property. You counter by telling him to leave.

2) Offender has broken and entered your vehicle. You counter by calling the police, who offer no useful solution.

3) Offender is burglarizing your vehicle. You counter by giving direct, forceful orders to cease and exit the premises.

4) Offender refuses to comply with your legitimate orders. You counter...how?


It would seem to me that the incident has escalated to the point of physical force usage at this point. The problem is, do you risk litigation and/or imprisonment by using "enough" force to ensure that the offender is unable to respond violently? Or do you play it "safe," and take the chance that you are overmatched?

In this situation, I would err on the side of it being better to be judged by twelve than carried by six. The problem is, if you let that creep walk off with your stuff, unless you have some sort of iron-clad evidence of your ownership of the stolen objects, once he's off the property (or in some cases even finished with the act of removing from your vehicle), it becomes a he said/she said court battle. It could be possible for the offender to even claim that you kidnapped him! And that you forced him, AT GUNPOINT, to pose for incriminating photos or video...

Sure, it sounds ludicrous, but that we have to actually concern ourselves with such a patently silly situation in the first place pretty well illuminates the corner we've been painted into, societally.

I wouldn't shoot unless my person was threatened, but I certainly would call 911, inform them that I was in the process of apprehending a criminal on my premises and then put the phone on speaker. Then, at least, the entirety of the incident would be recorded and there could be no question that I made every effort to resolve the issue non-lethally. Additionally, if it goes horribly south, medical help could be readily summoned by the operator. From there, it's a crapshoot. There are just too many variables to predict how it would play out. I can play the "What if" game all night on this one (it's a LULU!), but it's all just supposition.

I guess any and/or all of the solutions offered COULD be necessary, but as to which way I'd go on a given day, who can tell?

Sorry that it's not the answer the OP was looking for, but it's the only I've got right now.




P.S.--All that talk about biological warfare in the car...I would report that as W.A.D.'s...Weapon of A$$ Destruction!!!

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Old June 23, 2009, 10:48 PM   #170
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If we had some way of rating users Bill, you'd get 230489 Kudocookiefwobs for a thread well done and particularly your last post.

It's amazing how common sense seems like fresh air. Nothing common about common sense right?

I would agree that OC is the most realistic, legal and effective means of getting involved for the majority of people.

Unarmed or hands-on combat is a distant second for most people in my humble opinion. This is based on the probability that he is armed or could improvise a weapon quickly coupled with the requirement to be proficient and confident in your ability.

Both would satisfy your urge to act and meet most legal requirements. In my state you can use a reasonable amount of force to make a citizens arrest. If the situation develops into one requiring deadly force, so long as your actions leading up to it were all legal, you could successfully defend yourself in court against any accusations that you were "party to the difficulty."
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Old June 24, 2009, 04:08 AM   #171
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BikerRN gets my vote for the most rational solution. Post #81.

I agree with it so I might be biased. But in terms of "rational," you have to agree that it's free from emotion, and many of the proposed solutions were emotional, not rational.

For example, a thief breaks into your car, the solution is not to stink it up. Isn't that a tad counter-productive? Haven't you just made a bad situation worse? Your car is being broken into and now you make it undriveable (for at least a period of time). Wouldn't people be asking you "What were you thinking?"

In terms of legalities, it's quite clear that the thief has you dead to rights, so to speak. You don't like it? Persuade your legislature to change the rules. This is a democracy, and the majority makes the rules. If you don't like that, so sorry.

If you don't want to follow BikerRN's advice, and if you don't want to crap up your car, the way I see it, you have limited choices:

1. Let's get this one out of the way right up front. Just shoot the guy a soon as he gets out of the car. Lie like hell and testify that he was about to attack you and you feared for your life. If you do a good enough job, and the cops don't investigate adequately to uncover any discrepancies in your story, not only will you not be charged but you will also beat the thief at his own game--you become the bigger criminal.

2. Use some kind of force that the thief finds unpleasant but (a) doesn't damage your car further and (b) is not considered, in the light of 20-20 hindsight, to have been an unreasonable application of force. Zip ties around the ankles has some appeal. Of course, this can be a bit tricky, what with having to use two hands for the zip ties, and of course, having to come closer to the thief, who so far isn't being cooperative. And you have to hope he doesn't have a look-out for the cops who comes to his aid. Or the thief might be as tough as hogdogs or you might be just as much a candy-ass as I am.

One poster said: "Just for idle speculation, though, I wonder what the scummie's reaction would be if you doused him with flamable liquid, stepped back and let him hear the 'ker-clink' of snapping your Zippo open." Technically that could be a battery (in most states) and possibly a terroristic threat, which in CA can be treated as a felony. But amusing to contemplate.

OTOH, a stun gun while he's in the car might be workable. And pepper spray outside the car is also worthy of consideration. (For you, that is. For me, I'll be dialing, whiling away the time (Mossberg 500 by my side), and filing with the insurance company.) I might also be filing a complaint with the PD about the slow response to a crime in progress.

3. Effect a citizen's arrest using reasonable force. Get it right, you just saved your deductible and you're a hero! If necessary to defend yourself, you might be privileged to use deadly force to protect yourself while effecting the arrest. Keep in mind that this is not a variant of 1 above. This option assumes that you legitimately try to restrain him physically and he in fact starts to get the upper hand and you honestly and reasonably believe that you are in danger of being killed or suffering great bodily injury. For me, this is way too complicated to analyze on the spot. Get it wrong and you've just bought into a jackpot. From hero to zero in the time it takes to pull a trigger.

Oh, and just to make it a bit more tricky, state laws can vary on this point. Unlike peace officers, in most states, citizens have immunity for a wrongful arrest, and if you use unreasonable force, you might face criminal charges for battery. Doing so while armed with a handgun in CA, even though it is not used in the offense, can be a big, fat sentence enhancement. You could end up doing way more time than the thief.

4. Just physically harm the guy as you see fit. Now re-read the last sentence of 3 above.

5. As one poster note, what about the thief's car? He had to get there someway. If it's parked nearby, you could get the license plate number.

For the most imaginative solution, I like Trooper Tyree's throw-down gun plan.

My small contribution to the solution would be to train my wife to say something different. Something like: "Honey, the police are on their way and they'll be here in a few minutes. I told them that he was kicking some cop's ass for pulling him over."

It might not be legal for her to misreport, but there's nothing illegal about her making the thief think she did so.

Last edited by Ricky B; June 24, 2009 at 04:10 AM. Reason: Add reference to post # for BikerRN's post
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Old June 24, 2009, 09:25 AM   #172
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Rather than stinking up your car by having your tactical chimp through poop at the guy, I was just thinking one could use an annoying strobing flashlight as a nonlethal response. Just a thought - since I have one.
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Old June 24, 2009, 09:38 AM   #173
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Lob a couple hundred M-80s (fused together in the brick package)

in his direction. He will probably skeedaddle.

fireworks are illegal in town where I live but people shoot them off
all summer long anyway. Not once have police responded.
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Old June 24, 2009, 09:43 AM   #174
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Quote:
Effect a citizen's arrest using reasonable force. Get it right, you just saved your deductible and you're a hero! If necessary to defend yourself, you might be privileged to use deadly force to protect yourself while effecting the arrest.
Any idea what the case law on that might be in different states?
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Old June 24, 2009, 09:46 AM   #175
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I think that a Taser C2 would be a great option. IIRC it is a 30 second ride. You have the obvious distance advantage over a stun gun and might be better off legally. Also, the dude is obviously nuts and OC has been proven rather ineffective. I had been sprayed 3 or 4 times now for training and it hurts less every time. Outside of my initial reaction to throw my body weight into the door, which would probably destroy a knee since I weigh 270, I would suggest releasing the hounds. "My dog always goes out with me when I take out the trash, your honor." Other less conventional means are great to discuss. Maybe throw the trash on the perp. The water hose is a great idea, especially if it's cold (something we don't see here in Central Texas) Unfortunately, I know my temper and the moment the thieving a-hole laughed at me when I present my weapon I would probably see red and drag him out of the car, disregarding the fact that he may be armed.
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