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Old June 20, 2009, 12:03 PM   #101
hogdogs
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Did you see the link I posted? How did you like the poor womans head wound? She'll never be the same. What if that was your daughter?
Sorry to burst yer bubble but your link has nuttin' to do with passive behavior...
According to...
Quote:
A woman in Plymouth Michigan was beaten almost to death by a would be rapist when she sprayed him with pepper spray.
She did not exhibit passive compliance when she used a less than satisfactory burst of spray which did not incapacitate the BG. So pacifists and the case you are trying to relate together are not in the same building.
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Old June 20, 2009, 12:09 PM   #102
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And you are incredibly arrogant to compare yourself with with either Jesus or Ghandi. Come on!
I'll send you a free gun if you can show where I compared my humble self to either of those men. Reading comprehesion is a tool too. Do it by PM so as to to waste bandwidth in your futile efforts

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Old June 20, 2009, 01:09 PM   #103
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Taser, pepper spray, other non-lethal...

... might be viable options.

I still say that medium and large dogs can solve all sorts of issues. I somehow think a burglar would be much less complacent when looking at my friend's American Bulldog. Up until last year, I'd have called 911, and if I went out it would have been with a concealed .45 or .357, and the dog (on a leash, to protect against civil suits, to protect the dog in case officers arrived, and also because a leashed dog is a bit more menacing - he hasn't attacked yet because he's held back - if loose and not attacking, maybe the dog isn't really a threat), with cell phone in pocket.

Need to get another big dog myself; my Catahoula made it to 13.5 years, but that was a year ago. Big, friendly baby, but you'd be surprised how many iffy people opted to move away from my property when they saw him. Most dogs are really good at picking up the monster vibe from people, and the teeth that are never shown will become more noticeable, and the snarls that almost never happen will start up.

Had a Rott/Shepherd mix a few years back who was also a big sweetie, but she recognized BGs when she saw them; whole different personality emerged. Kept some would-be attackers back from my ex long enough for her to produce a 9mm and send them running. (One of the two was a known stalker, so we assumed his buddy was probably an accomplice.)
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Old June 20, 2009, 01:57 PM   #104
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In many jurisdictions firing a firearm in the presence of a bad guy may be considered use of deadly force. If so, are you justified in using deadly force? Are you in imminent danger of great bodily harm or death? I would argue no. The bad guy in the original scenario was merely non-compliant and not a threat to you.

Unless you are in Texas I doubt that the state's law allows you to use deadly force to protect your property.

The suggestions to hit the bad guy with a baseball bat might also be considered use of deadly force or at least the use of a dangerous weapon. It might depend upon there you struck the bad guy. In training with the PR24 there were three gradations of points of the body that you could hit with escalating levels of force. The highest level was deadly force.

I would suggest using available cover (something that should stop a bullet) while keeping the bad guy covered. While waiting for the police you might take some photos of the guy to identify him later. If the police did not arrive before the bad guy decided to leave with my property, maybe I would place myself blocking his path. If he advanced on me, I would then be justified in shooting.

For those who would hit the bad guy with a bat or sledgehammer and break some bones or incapacitate the bad guy, you would most likely be charged with aggravated assault and battery or possibly attempted murder (each state has their own standards and definitions). Regardless of the name of the charge, you would likely be convicted of a felony and sentenced to many years in a prison. If you survive prison and got out, you would be an ex-con. Think that is a resume enhancement?

Because of your righteous indignation and act of anger you would lose your freedom, the right to vote, probably your family, and the right to bear arms. Would you pay that enormous price to indulge your anger? Your insurance would pay for any loss on your property.
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Old June 20, 2009, 07:08 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by samurai30047
I can't believe that a gun oriented site like this attracts sooooo many pacifists. Your property is being stolen and you stand by and do nothing? Calling the police and video taping is basically doing nothing. Reminds me of the towns folk in the movie "High Plains Drifter". Too afraid to do the right thing.
You know, I'm thinking almost the opposite:

I can't believe that a board like this has a cardinal philosophy of having a community dedicated to the discussion and advancement of responsible firearms ownership only to attract soooo many gung-ho chest thumping kill 'em all let God sort 'em out enthusiasts.:barf:

Your car stereo is being stolen and you want to shoot 'em up if they laugh at you? This is basically going to accomplish nothing. Well, I guess it would accomplish a few things. You being arrested, cough up money for bail (if you are granted one by the judge) and an attorney. Pretty sure you're going to be broke by the time it's all said and done. That won't matter since you'll be enjoying an 8x8 cell shared with fellow cellmate by the name Bubba (or whatever name he makes you call him). Kinda reminds me of fans that fantasize being their favorite professional "wrestling" superstar; gratuitus physical violence without even the need for referees...

Whatever chest thumping one may think they'll do, we have laws of the land to abide by. Yak all you want on what's perceivably right in your mind. But when the dust settles, you have to be responsible for your actions as set in the State and Federal laws. On top of that, when the anti-gun crowds get ahold of the story, we all look like a bunch of hooligans.....all for a stupid, lousy stereo. Now, tell me. What good does it really do by carrying out your way?

Oh, and IIRC, nobody in High Plains Drifter gathered incriminating evidence, called the authorities, and kept their eye at a safe distance with a firearm just in case their life was in imminent danger...
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Old June 20, 2009, 07:54 PM   #106
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Just call police and stay at a safe distance?

I just got off the phone with an attorney who told me this:
If someone threatens me (while he is in the commission of a felony, i.e. buglary for example) that I am within my rights to defend myself, especially while on my own property, garage, etc.

No doubt, I'm sure that if I try and stop him, he will threaten me in some degree and maybe want to kick my butt (or worse). I have seen numerous and corny suggestions about pouring chemicals on him, slam the door on him, etc. Yeah, like he is just going to sit there and take that...
As a lot of you suggest, we can't shoot him "for just stealing a radio", so what do we do? Beg him to stop? Yeah, that should work...

So, lets see now? You have the choice of calling the police (and who knows when they will get there, as I live way out of town) and standing away at a distance while the thief steals all your property and he knows you are watching him. Maybe the bad guy is thinking, "man, this guy is a real wimpy SOB.. I'll bet I can come back later and really load up"?? I can't believe he is watching me do this and is not trying to stop me. Who knows??

Other than Hogdog's suggestion (which is taking action), I have yet to hear one concrete suggestion on what someone would do if this really happened to them. Silly things don't count and doing nothing does not count.
You have to realize, that this person could possibly come back again at a later date (and maybe do worse next time). Its happened before and will no doubt, happen again.

Actually, this is an excellent thread and has a lot of people trying to explain the rationale of why they would do something or not. Maybe there is no perfect soulution. To each his own and let the chips fall where they may?
Good luck, I'm done.....

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Old June 20, 2009, 08:58 PM   #107
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I can't believe he is watching me do this and is not trying to stop me. Who knows??
I wouldn't stake my life on the assumption that his armed accomplice in the getaway car isn't watching me, either.

Expert trainers say don't go out there. I'll take my advice from them.
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Old June 20, 2009, 09:20 PM   #108
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Sheesh.... Lots of chest-thumping he-men in this thread insisting that they'd shoot the bastich for stealing, messing up their vehicle, and having a mouth on him. I hope most of you who were in that crowd were just venting.

Just for the record, I don't at all mind BillCA's original question, nor his redirect suggesting that we think outside the box and focus, not on what we can't do, but on what we might be able to do to stop the guy. I have no problem with using a reasonable degree of force to stop the guy. I'm not sure about pepper spray (it can kill, although rarely), but tossing some ammonia soaked rags or other stuff the perp won't want to breathe into the vehicle sounds workable. I also think that documenting what he's doing is a good idea.

But what's wrong with deciding that stopping him isn't worth the cost and just claiming on your insurance? Why do so many people here seem to think that they have to prove something to a thief?
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Old June 20, 2009, 09:31 PM   #109
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you're not paying attention

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydiver
Other than Hogdog's suggestion (which is taking action), I have yet to hear one concrete suggestion on what someone would do if this really happened to them. Silly things don't count and doing nothing does not count.
Did you read BillCA's post at no. 87? He related not just a hypothetical solution, but the car owner's actual (and successful) resolution to this bizarre scenario. Silly? Maybe, but the bad guy was stopped, and the victim didn't end up in the hospital, the morgue, or the local jail. That's a three-fer.
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Old June 20, 2009, 10:03 PM   #110
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It is not having to prove something to a thief, it is a refusal to have my life dictated by scum. All (well most) of those that have posted in this thread have very good points and reasons why they will react in the manner they will.

I have my reasons also. I have been at different times, burglarized, had my home invaded and physically assaulted. So have members of my family.

Noone knows exactly how they will react in any situation and all scenarios are different.

I know this...

I will act with a sudden and violent attack (in whatever manner necessary and appropriate) meant to immediately stop any threat to myself, my family or my property and for the defense from bodily harm of any innocent.

You all have to make and live with your own decisions and I understand that. I also accept that. See, I know the world is full of all kinds of good people, all doing the best they can.

It's the predators I have an issue with.
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Old June 20, 2009, 10:12 PM   #111
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Bill wrote: "Okay, before I tell you what my friend's solution was, I'd like to comment on some of the responses. They were enlightening.

Donn_N: My friend did think about taking his stuff into the garage, but that required getting too close to the thief's feet. Or within striking distance of that ratchet. A non-starter solution.

Knee-Knockers: Bats, golf clubs, sticks, etc. on the knees might work, though I think too many people would be overly generous in the application such tools. However, using the edge of a 4-iron or the handle-end of a bat to "bark" the guy's shins several times (painful but not permanently damaging) -- might have gotten him out of the car. But then you'd have a possible fight to deal with.

Dwight55 gets the runner-up award for offering the closest thing to the solution used. The only reason you didn't get first prize was due to the way it was phrased.

The resolution used was, as Dwight55 suggested, ammonia. Dwight suggested ammonia and chlorine bleach which can be deadly and damaging to the lungs.

Since the guy was, from what could be seen, working on getting the GPS unit out, there was plenty of time before he tried to leave. So, walk into the garage, put several shop towels in a mop bucket and pour half a gallon of ammonia on them. In his case, my friend used old baby diaper "polishing rags" which are very absorbent.

Walk up the the car, kick the door into the guy's shin. When he retracts his leg, fling about five ammonia-saturated rags into the car and slam the door shut. Wait. Lean on the door to prevent him from tossing the rags back out easily.² When the thief crawled out of the driver's side, he was ready with some rope to lasso the guy, who offered little resistance. Once controlled, he pulled the rags out of the car and put them slightly upwind of the guy. By the time the cops arrived the thief was relieved to be taken away.
"

And Bill is perfectly correct (see bold area above). Bad phraseology on my part, . . . ammonia and chlorine together produce phosgene gas, . . . it is at least very very irritating to your lungs, . . . can do irreversable damage, . . . and can cause death. It was used in gas warfare during WW1 I was told.

My attempt was to advocate pouring or throwing a substance on him that would be very irritating both as a smell and physically. Both clorox and ammonia will do that. The brake cleaner will do so also, . . . and can be used with the squirter tube that doesn't make you get too close.

And if Mr. Non-compliance is wearing a tee shirt and shorts, . . . you can get enough of either on him in short order that you may make some $$$$ renting him your garden hose before the LEO folks arrive.

May God bless,
Dwight
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Old June 20, 2009, 10:16 PM   #112
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From my experience, relying on insurance is just not acceptible.
When I turn in a claim, it goes on record.
Enough claims (like 2 or 3) and my rates go up.
Any more than that and I can get cancelled.
I have insurance because it's the law, but I only use it if my car gets totaled or something catastrophic like that.
Sorry to all the insurance agents out there, but somebody had to say it.

I can't tell you what I would do, really, but I am sure that I would take some kind of unpleasant action against the burglar.
I would want him to be there when the police arrive so he can be arrested.
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Old June 20, 2009, 11:10 PM   #113
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Whewww a lot of post to read...

Me, I want this guy arrested. I agree, I cannot shoot him without major problems for my self,,,but really these genes should not be passed along.

I always carry a knife besides my Kimber 45 Ultra. Feet sticking out of my car door, unless he is wearing boots, the Achilles tendon is mine for the taking. Take them both...(now the bleeding hearts will say that is a deadly attack, but there are 2 sides to every story...I tried to restrain him with my knife and he kicked cutting himself). Ever see someone try and stand with no Achilles tendons....they are not going anywhere but on hands and knees.

He is putting stuff on the ground next to my car, where is his car, it better have 4 flat tires...or you are not doing your job.

Put the wife back on the phone yelling there is blood everywhere, get the police here now...get some ambulances too...then say Oh no and hang up.

Only 1 person mentioned zip ties....your best friend.

Sometimes you cannot just let other people get their hands dirty, you have to do your own work. And going back to the OP, when you told him to get out of your car, he did threaten sexual violence. Were you fearful, not only for yourself but your family.....quaking in my boots. Who know what might have happened in 30 minutes.
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Old June 20, 2009, 11:26 PM   #114
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Tuttle as I agree that no one needs to be shot over a radio, I would still assume that the person is being irrational(forget who corrected me) or in the wrong mind set to be dealing with them safely.
Would you be more on guard if someone complied with you or if someone disregarded everything you say?
Maybe the solution would be to call the cops and tell them you are witnessing a burglary after you hold them there. I am not waiting for someone to kill if they try to take my stereo. But I don't know if I would just let them walk away. The thing is, what if you say "don't move or I will shoot" and he moves? Is this morally right?
This reminds me of the recent example of the guy who told some kid to leave his yard. He came back and was warned again only to not listen. I would think this would be the same situation. That if I am armed and my instructions aren't followed I would have to fire. Do you shoot him in the leg to prove a point? Do you fire a warning shot?
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Old June 21, 2009, 12:02 AM   #115
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With respect, if you discharge your firearm it ought to be because you or a loved one are in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm.

Shooting someone in the leg (deliberately), firing a warning shot, and so forth are not defensible in court (where I live - it may be different where you live).

At the risk of sounding dickish, part of being a responsible gun owner is abiding by all the laws. You certainly don't need to tolerate a life threatening attack, but if there IS no immediate threat.....thats when Plan B is called for, however you define it.

But we don't really have the option of picking and choosing which laws we agree to abide by...

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Old June 21, 2009, 12:06 AM   #116
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Expert trainers say don't go out there. I'll take my advice from them.
+1.
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Old June 21, 2009, 12:27 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Skydiver3346
I just really got to think on this (call my attorney buddy) and figure it all out. Best to be prepared for exactly what you would do (when and if something like this ever happened to you). Hopefully it never does.

I just got off the phone with an attorney who told me this:
If someone threatens me (while he is in the commission of a felony, i.e. buglary for example) that I am within my rights to defend myself, especially while on my own property, garage, etc.
One KEY problem, Sky. You didn't tell your lawyer the correct story. The perp never threatened Bill's friend's life. This very issue is the dividing line that provides two drastically scenarios on what to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornett
From my experience, relying on insurance is just not acceptible.
When I turn in a claim, it goes on record.
Enough claims (like 2 or 3) and my rates go up.
Any more than that and I can get cancelled.
I have insurance because it's the law, but I only use it if my car gets totaled or something catastrophic like that.
Sorry to all the insurance agents out there, but somebody had to say it.
I can't tell you what I would do, really, but I am sure that I would take some kind of unpleasant action against the burglar.
I would want him to be there when the police arrive so he can be arrested.
So, you don't know what you'd really do. That's an honest statement, I'm sure (not being condescending nor sarcastic). I'd want to take reasonable action to keep the perp there until he/she is arrested, also. 100% certain I could? No. But I don't think I'll be playing "security guard" which is observe and report, either.

One issue with your statement about insurance claims is agents rely on you not making a claim on the smaller stuff. You're paying premiums plus you're paying out of pocket to replace the items that are damaged. You lose both ways, the agency wins both. Granted, a $550 stereo isn't worth claiming if your deductible is $500.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Wanderer
He is putting stuff on the ground next to my car, where is his car, it better have 4 flat tires...or you are not doing your job.
So, you're performing willful destruction of anothers' property to keep them from destructing yours? Not good. The jury of your peers probably won't be so simpathetic on that one...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyo
But I don't know if I would just let them walk away. The thing is, what if you say "don't move or I will shoot" and he moves? Is this morally right? This reminds me of the recent example of the guy who told some kid to leave his yard. He came back and was warned again only to not listen. I would think this would be the same situation. That if I am armed and my instructions aren't followed I would have to fire. Do you shoot him in the leg to prove a point? Do you fire a warning shot?
Your questions are too vague. I wouldn't shoot if he moved to flee. I would if he advanced in a manner that my life is about to end if I didn't fire my gun. No, I wouldn't shoot in the leg to prove a point nor would I fire a warning shot.

Listen up folks. NONE of us are Clint Eastwood in Gran Turino. Everybody get this in y'all's head and this discussion will flow much easier dealing with reality.
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Old June 21, 2009, 12:40 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragon55
Someone that was that arrogant or confident or stupid would make me fear for his returning later for even worse acts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skydiver3346
You have to realize, that this person could possibly come back again at a later date (and maybe do worse next time). Its happened before and will no doubt, happen again.
As a civilian, you cannot employ deadly force for something that the person might do at some future date, especially if you have no evidence he ever did something violent in the past. But let's look at it another way...

Homeowner wakes up at 11:55pm to odd noises. Eventually he steps outside with a flashlight and sees someone starting to walk away from the garden spigot with a water filled bucket... his bucket. He calls for the person to stop in rather harsh language and the trespasser calls back "I'll be back and we'll settle this."

Can he shoot because of what this person might do when comes back? With no evidence of violence or violent threats, not a prayer. Even if he threated to come back and beat the owner to a bloody pulp, he would not be justified in shooting. Now... think of the above situation where the trespasser is your father, brother, sister, wife, daughter, son... who's car was overheating in a rural area late at night and decided to borrow 2 gallons of water and the bucket to get home... with the intention of leaving a few bucks in the bucket for the use -- instead of waking people up late at night. You'd be insisting that the law prosecute the owner, now wouldn't you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Wanderer
And going back to the OP, when you told him to get out of your car, he did threaten sexual violence. Were you fearful, not only for yourself but your family.....quaking in my boots. Who know what might have happened in 30 minutes.
Watch out... if you stretch it too far, it'll break and slap you silly.

You can stretch a point only so far. If someone tells you to go F-- yourself or to F-- off, the court is not going to find that those words were a threat of sexual violence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwight55
And if Mr. Non-compliance is wearing a tee shirt and shorts, . . . you can get enough of either on him in short order that you may make some $$$$ renting him your garden hose before the LEO folks arrive.
Classic! I love it Dwight!
Accept no checks or cards, cash only, and in small bills.

The Goal
The goal of this post was to exercise the gray matter and get people to think rationally instead of with their gonads or emotions.

Jumping up and down on a thief's hands until they quit crunching might be satisfying to someone's sense of revenge or "justice". But it can also get you some serious jail time if you exceed known limitations on the use of force.

The whole point is to ask yourself what will you do if a criminal type or even a potential criminal type just passively fails to comply with your instructions? By doing the unexpected (and/or illogical or irrational) the BG can get inside your OODA loop and distract you long enough to make his move. Or allow his unseen partner to make a move on you.

Have more than one solution!

That guy walking out of your open garage, carrying off your expensive golf clubs just keeps walking away with no threat to you... think outside the box. How about that 15-ft electrical cord? Tie a knot in one end and swing it 'round and try to hobble his legs. Or use it like Indiana Jones' bullwhip.
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Old June 21, 2009, 12:45 AM   #119
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Have more than one solution!
Yeah, what would MacGyver do?

Great thread, Bill. I'd figure if you were the host of a thread you'd get our brains to work overtime...
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Old June 21, 2009, 01:01 AM   #120
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I know quite a few expert trainers that would not hesitate to go out there and take whatever measures necessary to take this low life off the steets. I would be very happy to refer them if you so desire. These people are not just "expert trainers" they are warriors. Kind of makes the "expert trainers" argument moot doesn't it?
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Old June 21, 2009, 01:09 AM   #121
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Name 'em. And they better not be John Q. Public from Podunk, Iowa. Plus, links to their written documentation on incidents when the perp NEVER displayed actions that caused the defender to be fearful of imminent death.
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Old June 21, 2009, 01:09 AM   #122
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How about this problem?

Interesting thread.

I don't know how many of the readers of this thread have been following this one

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=363031
thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=363031

but the situation seems similar, but is an ongoing harrassment and intimidation scenario.

Any thoughts?

Lost Sheep

I will now quote an unnamed source: If you find youself in a fair fight, your tactics ---- (are inadequate).
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Old June 21, 2009, 01:20 AM   #123
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I know quite a few expert trainers that would not hesitate to go out there and take whatever measures necessary to take this low life off the steets. I would be very happy to refer them if you so desire. These people are not just "expert trainers" they are warriors.
Horrorshow! Names please...I need to become a warrior...I'm tired of skulking like a yellow coward in my house while the cheloveks and prestoopniks crast and crack as the millicents take their time in rescuing me.....

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Old June 21, 2009, 01:21 AM   #124
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Tuttle8, you doubt I can name them? What rock have you been hiding under?

You can find them here...

www.warriortalk.com
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Old June 21, 2009, 01:30 AM   #125
Wildalaska
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Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,174
Quote:
Tuttle8, you doubt I can name them? What rock have you been hiding under?

You can find them here...

www.warriortalk.com
So you are alleging that mr Suarez and his ilk advocate the murder of unarmed folks who steal radios?

Wildwa'llmaybeiwilljustemailthemAlaska TM
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